[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

Report back!: I tried out my new strategy with my ESTJ trainer. Each day I worked for over an hour after the workshop to fill out my report on what I understood about the workshop so as to be ready for our meeting time with her. Fortunately it was a live-in workshop so it was possible to do that. I enjoyed doing it actually because it was part of me improving myself as a trainer. I didn’t worry too much about reporting in a sensing and thinking way after the first day. I was just thorough and systematic in my approach, which I like to be anyway.

Excellent! I had been worrying a little that you would have to be very artificial around her to pull this off. It reassures me to know that most of how you acted was how you would have acted anyway because what kind of a solution is it if you still feel fake/miserable/whatever afterwards?

I paid also attention to the word “neutral”. You once answered Fidelia, I think it was, that you as an ESTJ would prefer if someone was indifferent to you than if they hated you.

This was a clue to me to act what I would call neutral towards my ESTJ especially around work matters. I saw that this suits her well. We are there to get the job done, right?

Yes. If the options are either
1. don't hold back what you think, and make her angry, or
2. only talk to her about work and be (in her mind) dedicated and hard-working,
then #2 is the best choice - and the choice you picked!

I also saw that when we are off-duty she can be playful and she can talk about here and now stuff or little stories about something that actually happened in the past (but not too much). My ESTJ doesn’t like to talk, but I think that was because she was brought up on a farm where the family were the only workers, so from little she worked very hard in the fields and there was no time to play or talk. It may not go with the type. According to your posts a while back you like to talk, more especially in discussions with guys. (Sorry if I am getting you wrong here.) So a question for you, what topics do you like to talk about? How do the discussions develop?

Mostly here-and-now stuff, like you said. If I do want to talk about theoretical things (and sometimes I do), it's only if I'll gain something from it. Actually, I can get very, very frustrated if I get sucked into a debate with someone only to find that their ideas are based on how they were raised, or something else that I can't really relate to/learn from/etc, and therefore that neither I nor the other person can gain anything from it. Actually, I got into a debate with an INFP and an INTJ the other day and kind of blew up at them afterwards:

ESTJ: Look, this has been interesting and everything, but it's been a waste of an hour of my time. It's three AM, I have a test tomorrow morning, I want to get what little sleep I can, so can we just stop???
INFP: Oh no, I'm sorry. Are you mad?
ESTJ: I - well - I just -there wasn't any point to the argument! Maybe if there had been a point to it -
INTJ (who is a Libertarian): It doesn't need to have a point. I get into political debates with this hardcore Communist back at home all the time, and then we'll just stop in the middle and start where we left off the next time we see each other.
INFP: Same thing with me. It's fun, you know?
ESTJ: But it's NOT fun!

Now, I'm probably different from a lot of ESTJs in this regard - but it seems like a waste in so many ways. You're putting all this personal energy into it, and it's all for nothing. No one's going to be convinced, the two of us will never agree. So frustrating, and so depressing!

But back to the point - I love discussions. I love talking about pros and cons, and likes and dislikes. My dad (INTP) and I have a tradition after watching movies - I don't think he knows it's a tradition, but I call it one - where we say what we enjoyed and didn't enjoy about the film, and then decide how many stars we would give it. We don't argue if we decide on different star ratings (no pointless debating); we respect our differences of opinion. I may have told this story before (?) but there was a time when I watched a movie with friends and started instinctively trying to talk to them about it in this same style. And my friends (INFJ, INTJ) replied: "Why are you being so negative??? Stop insulting it! I enjoyed it." I was like "But - - opinions can be multifaceted!" But needless to say, there was never a discussion. Which is why, even though I'm an adult now, my dad is still my favorite movie-watching buddy, and I'm still on the lookout for more people who think of movies/books/entertainment/etc in the same way.

And as for topics - wow, my answer is long-winded - pretty much anything I'm interested in. Bring up something I know a lot about, and I can go for hours, man! As long as the person I'm talking to is interested.

To get back to her, I can also be a bit playful around her and I can talk about here and now stuff at meals and so on, and not too much, in other words fit in with her style. I can do this because it is not difficult. It makes a harmonious atmosphere and that is important to me.

If she's like me (and she easily could not be... you know, enneagram differences), then it's important to her too.

Something else happened. In the workshop and in the meeting after the workshop I challenged her more and asked her more questions than usual, which I had not planned, but she did not take it badly. I would have expected her to react.

There is something I am not getting here. Why do I have the impression that in the past when I asked questions I would get withering scorn from her? Is it the kind of question?

How is this for you? If someone questions you about something at work, are there some questions that irritate you, and some that don’t? What would the difference be?

I agree with Tamske's answers, with one addition - very repetitive questions. We ESTJs often don't suffer fools gladly, so if you keep asking the same question over and over again, it can be frustrating. Especially if we are CERTAIN that there are better questions you could be asking, to get to the root of your confusion, but you aren't asking them - and there's nothing we can do, since we don't know why you're confused.

More replies to come -

 

[sui generis]

I TOTALLY HEAR YOU about the pointless debating. It's weird- when I was younger and used to test as ENTJ, I used to enjoy it quite a bit. I think I just saw it as an opportunity to show off that I was smart and prove that I was right. :rolli: I'm not saying that's why *everyone* does it, I'm saying that's why *I* did it. Now, the older and more S I get, the more those pointless debates frustrate me. I enjoy discussions, even occasionally heated discussions, trying to get a deeper understanding of a topic, but am frustrated by "agree to disagree" kind of conversations.

 

[EJCC]

More replies!

- if the ESTJ gets the impression he has to be polite to you. An ESTJ can handle "Am I doing well?" or "How do you like my work?" very well if only he is sure you accept criticism. Otherwise, he wil sort of panic, like the stereotypical man panics if his wife asks whether she should wear the blue or the white shoes.

So true. I definitely have to bluster around for a bit to find a diplomatic answer... and even then it usually doesn't make the person happy.
Sensitive person: "Am I doing well?"
Me: "Well, I, um... *insert a badly bullshitted, slightly comforting but mostly depressing statement here*... i suppose."
Unless they have a legitimate excuse for doing poorly. In which case I might reassure them with a statement like this: "Well, you're just starting out. You may not be as productive now, but you'll get into the swing of things. You're a fast learner. "

@ EJCC: about Ti/Fe sympathy:
Ti - Find out the cause to the person's discomfort.
Fe - Make him feel better, make him know I'm on his side and I'm here to help
Of course, if there's a problem to be solved, we'll solve the problem too! But to me the empathy work is "done" when we get to the "solve problem" phase.

That's how my INTP dad is. The emphasis is on problem solving, but there's never any indication that his sympathy is forced. His Fe is very honest - i.e. it's wonderful if he actually does sympathize, but he won't fake it if he doesn't, and either way the problem will be solved. And if it's not, he has mastered the art of this statement: "Is there anything I can do to help? "

about the "ask an ESTJ" book - can be nice, but indeed, you'll need to rework it a bit. I think the biggest hurdle is somehow make a whole out of it. Explain the readers what's it all about. Ideally, I think, MBTI should even not be mentioned, especially not in the title! Because there's a lot in it that holds for other (nearby) types too. I'm more thinking along the lines of "why men don't listen and women can't read maps". The sort of title which makes a layman get an idea. There are much more MBTI laymen in the world than experts and it's them you want to reach. After all, lots of people deal with ESTJs in their lives and it'll be nice to be able to help them!
Further, you'll need to cut and paste A LOT. Order among topics. Eliminate or merge discussions when they are too similar.
I'd like to help with the first problem (I'm actually already brainstorming on it...) but I cringe if I think about the second one. That will take a lot of time and it'll be a really boring work... I guess I'll leave that to the SJs!

I like the sound of all of that, except for the bolded. If we take out the ESTJ part of it, then what gives me the right to advise anyone on anything? Consider my comparative lack of life experience. I've been advising people twice my age, on this thread, and my only justification for that presumptuousness is the fact that I empathize and sympathize with a particular personality which, frankly, confuses the hell out of a lot of people. I agree that it shouldn't be too technical, but the personality type that I'm dealing with ought to be mentioned/explained at least briefly at the beginning - just for people who have no idea what the MBTI is.

Or... maybe this could be a study. A nonfiction book? Explaining a bit about TypeC, and about who I am and who some other people here are... to show that this advising doesn't exist in a vacuum. The way that the thread has been structured might make it easier to turn into a narrative, than an encyclopedia.

I dunno. What do you (and your Ne) think?

About being good at lots of things: that's a gift, not a curse. Combine them all, NeTamske says! I'd love to quote a mentor again (I'm sure I've done that already here) - lots of people are good in one thing and choose that one thing to excel, but if you really want to be exceptional, combine two or more of your talents! Why do you think physics, schools etc play a prominent role in my stories?

You have a point! My dad used to tell me that all the time. I'm sure that can happen to me. I would love for it to. The closest thing I can come up with would be working for a charity or a nonprofit that's heavily involved in the arts/music/etc. But I have a few more years to think about this - alhamdu lillah!

So... EJCC... what makes you positive you're an ESTJ? When/how did you come to this conclusion?

I was one of those lucky few who took a free test online and got the correct result on the first try! So what pretty much happened was this:
"Hm... what's this test? lemme try it out... *click click click* ...ESTJ? What's that? ... HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO ACCURATE OMG *runs to everyone in the immediate area* GUYS this test is SO AMAZING it is SO TRUE!"

But let me see if I can find some quotes that I initially related to... (hard to know since it was so long ago...)
Ah! Here we are (edited to only include what I relate to):

ESTJs live in a world of facts and concrete needs. They live in the present, with their eye constantly scanning their personal environment to make sure that everything is running smoothly and systematically. They... have a clear set of standards... They expect the same of others, and have no patience or understanding of individuals who do not value these systems. They value competence and efficiency, and like to see quick results for their efforts.

ESTJs are take-charge people. They have... a clear vision of the way that things should be... They are extremely talented at devising systems and plans for action, and at being able to see what steps need to be taken to complete a specific task. They can sometimes be very demanding and critical, because they have such strongly held beliefs, and are likely to express themselves without reserve if they feel someone isn't meeting their standards. But at least their expressions can be taken at face-value, because the ESTJ is extremely straight-forward and honest.

The ESTJ is usually a model citizen, and pillar of the community. He or she takes their commitments seriously, and follows their own standards of "good citizenship" to the letter. ESTJ enjoys interacting with people, and likes to have fun. ESTJs can be very boisterous and fun at social events, especially activities which are focused on the family, community, or work.

The ESTJ needs to watch out for the tendency to be too rigid, and to become overly detail-oriented. Since they put a lot of weight in their own beliefs, it's important that they remember to value other people's input and opinions. If they neglect their Feeling side, they may have a problem with fulfilling other's needs for intimacy, and may unknowingly hurt people's feelings by applying logic and reason to situations which demand more emotional sensitivity.

When bogged down by stress, an ESTJ often feels isolated from others. They feel as if they are misunderstood and undervalued, and that their efforts are taken for granted. Although normally the ESTJ is very verbal and doesn't have any problem expressing themself, when under stress they have a hard time putting their feelings into words and communicating them to others.

The ESTJ puts forth a lot of effort in almost everything that they do. They will do everything that they think should be done in their job, marriage, and community with a good amount of energy. He or she is conscientious, practical, realistic, and dependable. While the ESTJ will dutifully do everything that is important to work towards a particular cause or goal, they might not naturally see or value the importance of goals which are outside of their practical scope. However, if the ESTJ is able to see the relevance of such goals to practical concerns, you can bet that they'll put every effort into understanding them and incorporating them into their quest for clarity and security.

In other words... pretty much all of it

I TOTALLY HEAR YOU about the pointless debating. It's weird- when I was younger and used to test as ENTJ, I used to enjoy it quite a bit. I think I just saw it as an opportunity to show off that I was smart and prove that I was right. :rolli: I'm not saying that's why *everyone* does it, I'm saying that's why *I* did it. Now, the older and more S I get, the more those pointless debates frustrate me. I enjoy discussions, even occasionally heated discussions, trying to get a deeper understanding of a topic, but am frustrated by "agree to disagree" kind of conversations.

Exactly. Although there is one type of "agree to disagree" conversation that I'm okay with: namely, when you finally understand their perspective in a respectful manner. That is, when I've still gained something from the conversation, even if it wasn't a victory.

it looks like the whole world doesn't like entjs. i mean it is a bit ridiculous the general vibe people have toward a personality classification. i mean my god, we are all human.

Assuming that you meant ESTJ - I think it's mostly an online thing, to be perfectly honest. I never find myself biased against based on the aspects of my personality that are measured by the MBTI, in real life. But online, I think it's a combination of several things:
1. negative experiences with ESTJs who really need to see a therapist;
2. associating ESTJs with rules, and hating rules, and therefore hating ESTJs;
3. ignorance about what ESTJs are really like;
4. personality-related superiority complexes (e.g. "I am an N and I am superior to ESTJs in every way possible"); and
5. resentment at perceived "SJ society" and resentment that ESTJs supposedly "run the world" (which they don't).

 

[SilkRoad]

^ EJCC, in regards to the last thing you said above...seems like everyone has a story about their nightmare control freak boss/dad/sig other, who they describe as ESTJ.

I can't help wondering if these might sometimes be people of other types, "unhealthy" if you will, acting like "unhealthy" ESTJs. Perhaps other SJ or SP types. Perhaps people in positions of authority who feel they "need" to act that way or are insecure so come across as really nasty, and partly that "I hate rules, so this nasty person must be ESTJ" sort of thing.

I wonder partly because in recent years I seem to have met millions of stereotypical ESFPs...nonstop OMG PARTY PARTY OMG ALCOHOL OMG MY LIVER IS DEAD OMG MORE PARTIES. And I can't help wondering if not all of them are in fact ESFPs, but if they end up behaving that way to fit in.

Thoughts? I mean, until quite recently I had the impression from all the postings I'd read that all ESTJs were horrible. I know that sounds awful, but seriously! It's one of those types where people always focus on the stereotypical bad experiences and I'm not sure if the individuals in question are always ESTJs.

 

[EJCC]

^ EJCC, in regards to the last thing you said above...seems like everyone has a story about their nightmare control freak boss/dad/sig other, who they describe as ESTJ.

That's definitely why I joined the forum. Not going to lie. My first ever post on TypeC (back then MBTIc) was an incoherent rant in an anti-ESTJ bias thread. (Posted here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2214&p=299161&viewfull=1#post299161)

Pardon me while I quote myself, just for kicks and giggles:

You are absolutely right. Considering the fact that an ESTJ created this thread, I don't know if it's the best idea to vent about what tight-assed, heartless tools they are all the time. (I'm thinking of you, sharpedges, when I write this, since your "positive aspects" were all negative.... I'm pretty sure that "second to none on covering their ass" isn't a compliment.) All in all, it's really hurtful.

Of course, I'm kind of sensitive, because in what I figure (and I'm probably wrong) to be the ESTJ manner, whenever someone criticizes me and they're right, I tend to retreat into my own head and wallow in self-pity. (e.g. "Oh god, they're right about me. I'm a heartless tool. How can anyone think I'm a decent human being?") And that's how I feel when I read this thread. A lot of people are pissed at ESTJs, and for good reason. It makes me rethink the whole Myers-Briggs principle of no type being "better" than any other. (LOL, pity party! sorry about that.)

I've also started to feel like people in the media feel the same way about ESTJs. Whenever I look up movie characters of my type, they're all awful people, or at least horrifically obnoxious and controlling. They're all cubicle bosses, or people who deny food to poor starving children. This may be funny at first, but after a while it really kills your self-esteem (kind of like body image BS in advertising and the fashion industry).

On to my point: could we not be so hateful? Let's think of ESTJs like they're people, and not robots (LOL, killer robots who like organizing pencils by length and quality of eraser). Or, at least, if you are stereotypical, how about doing it in a friendly way? I.E. We ESTJs know that we're strong personalities. We know why people hate us (at least, I do... I tend to analyze myself a lot...), so it isn't really necessary to be mean. We're already mean enough to ourselves - I mean, for God's sake, we already register almost any tiny mistake as ABSOLUTE FAILURE AND DISHONOR TO THE WHOLE FAMILY.

Done ranting. On with the show.

Holy shit, I posted that almost three years ago!!! And I was still living at home... not even in college yet... ...What a trip.

I can't help wondering if these might sometimes be people of other types, "unhealthy" if you will, acting like "unhealthy" ESTJs. Perhaps other SJ or SP types. Perhaps people in positions of authority who feel they "need" to act that way or are insecure so come across as really nasty, and partly that "I hate rules, so this nasty person must be ESTJ" sort of thing.

Some people have posted on here about very uptight, closed-minded and rude people, who have later been typed (by myself and other people who frequent this thread) as either ENTJ or ESTP.

I wonder partly because in recent years I seem to have met millions of stereotypical ESFPs...nonstop OMG PARTY PARTY OMG ALCOHOL OMG MY LIVER IS DEAD OMG MORE PARTIES. And I can't help wondering if not all of them are in fact ESFPs, but if they end up behaving that way to fit in.

Hard to say. A lot of people have that stereotype about ESFPs, but I never have - partially because the one ESFP I know personally has tendencies towards acting like a pompous pseudo-intellectual... and is also socially awkward... and possibly somewhere very low on the Autism spectrum? Could be an N pattern-recognition thing. Honestly I feel like the Sensors on TypeC are a lot less likely to make huge blanket statements about type than the Intuitives are - but that could just be because
1. they're the victims of bias here and are therefore more sensitive to it (and more aware that they shouldn't act that way), and
2. there aren't as many; maybe if there were more, they'd stereotype too.

Thoughts? I mean, until quite recently I had the impression from all the postings I'd read that all ESTJs were horrible. I know that sounds awful, but seriously! It's one of those types where people always focus on the stereotypical bad experiences and I'm not sure if the individuals in question are always ESTJs.

They might not always be. It's hard to tell; I've mostly been operating this thread under the assumption that everyone being complained about actually is an ESTJ (unless it's incredibly obvious that they aren't). But yeah - that bias is still rampant here (for the five reasons I mentioned earlier, plus the fact that they might not be ESTJs all the time).

 

[Fidelia]

Interestingly enough, despite all that, in the threads where people say what type they wish they could be, they often choose ESTJ. Maybe it's just jealousy!

 

[sui generis]

 

[/DG/]

I was one of those lucky few who took a free test online and got the correct result on the first try! So what pretty much happened was this:
"Hm... what's this test? lemme try it out... *click click click* ...ESTJ? What's that? ... HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO ACCURATE OMG *runs to everyone in the immediate area* GUYS this test is SO AMAZING it is SO TRUE!"

But let me see if I can find some quotes that I initially related to... (hard to know since it was so long ago...)
Ah! Here we are (edited to only include what I relate to):

In other words... pretty much all of it

Bahaha! You lucky dog.

 

[EJCC]

Bahaha! You lucky dog.

Yeah But on the other hand, if it makes you feel any better, I never had that luck with the Enneagram. I'm still not 100% about my type.

 

[EJCC]

Okay, I just realized that some people have been taking a different message from this thread than what I was hoping for. I read this post, by someone who I still think is very cool but who still somewhat disappointed me with this statement.

EJCC, if I recall correctly, was rasied by an INFJ mom, so learned to be very aware of others, but most ESTJs can be very pushy and never be in the slightest bit aware how they come across to others.

In response, a public service announcement:

I AM NOT AN EXCEPTION TO A GENERAL RULE.

Thank you for your time.

 

[sui generis]

 

[Little Linguist]

Well, for the record, I think you are awesome, regardless of any rules.

 

[Peel]

Wow I was just going to search for this thread and it came up as most recent Dunno if this question has been asked before, but is it normal for an ESTJ or be really ... hot and cold? I'm not really sure another way to put it, but I recently met and became pretty good friends with and ESTJ (it came up in conversation) and she's the most confusing person I've ever met. My other friends put it down to her being a girl, and uhh things that come with being a girl ... but I think there's something a bit deeper to it.

Usually I'm able to get a bit of a read on stuff, but I'm just so confused by her mood switches. Like we'll be in lectures and I'll just make some small talk, and she'll tell me to shhh quite seriously, which makes me think she really wants to listen in and stuff, but then like maybe 10 minutes later she'll being trying to draw on me / my notes, or telling me a joke and I'll be like, "what the...". I've read ESTJ's are really focussed and have a big divide between work and play, so it's probably this right?

Other times, it will just be her character. She's pretty confident, and really outgoing, likes to lead etc etc, but then she'll say something like "I don't really have many close friends" or "I don't really think I'm that strong a character". It really puzzled me at first, but now I'm thinking she has some deep-seated insecurities which I should be careful around. Then there's just other simple things, like when she's hungry she stops being really chatty, and becomes really quiet and is quite singular minded on only getting food, or like she doesn't seem interested in talking so I'll back off then she'll facebook message me, send me a song on spotify etc. What do you guys think? Can you relate?

Which brings me to my next point - honesty. Do ESTJs unconditionally value honesty? Even if it's pure, brutual and no feelings will be spared? As much as she tells me she values honesty, and has been angry before when I've not been completely honest, I get the feeling she knows I'll tell a white lie, and I think in some cases she needs me to reassure her on stuff like appearance, if she's annoying people, etc. I think sometimes the truth is a bit hurtful, and I'd rather not give an answer that might potentially be quite devastating or hurtful.

And finally, any tips on how an xNFP/ESTJ friendship might work? If it does at all? I really like her as a friend, but sometimes it does feel like I care more than she does, which is quite draining. Any advice / thoughts / opinions would be brilliant! Hope I haven't offended any of you in my post, you ESTJs are pretty cool

 

[EJCC]

Hey Peel Welcome to the forum!

Pretty much everything you describe in this post is a universal trait, imo, and not type-related - but I'll be more specific:

Usually I'm able to get a bit of a read on stuff, but I'm just so confused by her mood switches. Like we'll be in lectures and I'll just make some small talk, and she'll tell me to shhh quite seriously, which makes me think she really wants to listen in and stuff, but then like maybe 10 minutes later she'll being trying to draw on me / my notes, or telling me a joke and I'll be like, "what the...". I've read ESTJ's are really focussed and have a big divide between work and play, so it's probably this right?

I really don't think this is related to personality type. This is related to knowing what you feel like you need to listen to in the lecture, and what you don't. I'm guessing that she shushed you when she knew that the professor was saying something important, and when the professor was talking about something she already knew about or that she considered unimportant, THAT'S when you can chat/draw. It's like when you're watching a movie; you don't want to talk when the action's happening, but you want to talk when you'll miss something less important.

Other times, it will just be her character. She's pretty confident, and really outgoing, likes to lead etc etc, but then she'll say something like "I don't really have many close friends" or "I don't really think I'm that strong a character". It really puzzled me at first, but now I'm thinking she has some deep-seated insecurities which I should be careful around. Then there's just other simple things, like when she's hungry she stops being really chatty, and becomes really quiet and is quite singular minded on only getting food, or like she doesn't seem interested in talking so I'll back off then she'll facebook message me, send me a song on spotify etc. What do you guys think? Can you relate?

This is also basic human behavior. No one is perfectly confident, and everyone has vulnerabilities that they hide. Although one little detail in there did strike me as type-related, and that is what I bolded. She may have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but what an ESTJ (or more probably, an ESTJ girl) would consider a "close" friend - i.e. a friend who you can completely bare your soul to, and be completely vulnerable around, and confide in them through thick and thin - is hard to come by. We don't make "close" friends very easily. There's a line, you know?

And as for the quiet vs. chatty thing - yeah, ESTJs are single-minded. If something bugs us, we have a hard time keeping our minds off it until the issue is resolved. This includes being hungry and really wanting food but it could also include any number of other things. She probably messaged you after she ate and therefore after the issue was resolved and she was relaxed again.

Which brings me to my next point - honesty. Do ESTJs unconditionally value honesty? Even if it's pure, brutual and no feelings will be spared? As much as she tells me she values honesty, and has been angry before when I've not been completely honest, I get the feeling she knows I'll tell a white lie, and I think in some cases she needs me to reassure her on stuff like appearance, if she's annoying people, etc. I think sometimes the truth is a bit hurtful, and I'd rather not give an answer that might potentially be quite devastating or hurtful.

Again, this is universal. The truth hurts no matter what your personality type. The difference is whether you think the truth is important enough to be worth the pain. As much as an ESTJ may be hurt by a blunt comment, what separates them from many other types is that they're likely to realize that the comment was valuable, and they will often be glad that comment was made to them, despite any pain along the way.

And finally, any tips on how an xNFP/ESTJ friendship might work? If it does at all? I really like her as a friend, but sometimes it does feel like I care more than she does, which is quite draining. Any advice / thoughts / opinions would be brilliant! Hope I haven't offended any of you in my post, you ESTJs are pretty cool

No problem! It's common for ESTJs to seem like they don't care all that much, at the beginning of a friendship. I will admit to thinking of many friendly acquaintances as fun diversions and not as real people - which is pretty harsh but also a good way to keep from being hurt emotionally by someone you barely know which is why I (and other ESTJs) reserve my loyalty for close friends who I know won't disappoint me or backstab me later.

As for friendship advice - based on everything you've been saying, you seem to be taking your ESTJ friend very much at surface level. So my advice to you would be to remember that she has flaws and vulnerabilities just like everyone. She may seem absolutely and perfectly capable of anything you ask her to do. She may seem impossible to hurt. She may seem 100% self-confident at all times. But that's just because she doesn't talk to people about her vulnerabilities. (It's kind of an extension of ESTJ task-oriented thinking: they only want to talk about their insecurities and feelings if it'll solve some sort of problem*.) And because she doesn't really talk to people about them, it's very very important that you recognize when she does, and that you don't undermine it, because if you're dismissive, she'll think to herself "If that's how he's going to act every time I open up, then I can never open up to him again, and therefore i can't be his close friend." And then she'll distance herself from you and you'll probably end up being her friendly acquaintance again.

But that's not really xNFP specific. Regarding your type in particular: if you're like the INFPs I know, you're probably a little flaky, and prone towards making huge blanket statements without backing them up. Both of those traits annoy the crap out of ESTJs, especially when combined. For example, one of my INFP friends decided that she would give up chocolate for a month, then wouldn't give me a straight answer as to why (first "to lose weight", second "because of poor labor conditions in ecuador", and third "because it's just something I want to do - why is everyone making such a big deal out of it??"), and then thought it wasn't a big deal to eat a chocolate bar a week later. For ESTJs, if you say you're going to do something, you know why you're doing it, and you do it to the best of your ability, and anything else makes no sense. That's been the biggest communication with my xNFP friendships, and it may be the same for you.

Hope that helped some!


*defining "problem" loosely. for example, "I'm feeling sad. This is a problem. I've tried dealing with it on my own, and it hasn't worked. Maybe I should talk to someone who would understand."

 

[EJCC]

Well, for the record, I think you are awesome, regardless of any rules.

Thanks, bro! Screw the rules! (just this once )

 

[Fidelia]

Okay, I just realized that some people have been taking a different message from this thread than what I was hoping for. I read this post, by someone who I still think is very cool but who still somewhat disappointed me with this statement.



In response, a public service announcement:

I AM NOT AN EXCEPTION TO A GENERAL RULE.

Thank you for your time.

Aw, EJCC! The main difference I see is that you are more willing to talk about this stuff than the average ESTJ I've met (who considers MBTI hogwash). Much of the misperceptions around ESTJs that people seem to have stem from the fact that ESTJs are less likely than some types to vocalize their thought/feeling process to others and sometimes feel some discomfort/confusion with it even themselves. You have done a real service for us all by being willing to help outline those processes. I know that Fe/Ti in particular has some tendancy towards filling in the blanks with their most likely guess for someone's motivations or behaviour if it seems that the other person is unlikely/unwilling to give them the definitive answer or if that information simply isn't available. I'd way rather the correct explanation, but cannot tolerate no explanation at all - it makes my Ni go nuts generating an overwhelming amount of possibilities to wade through.

Perhaps your self-awareness/willingness to verbalize what's going on is what accounts for people's perception that you are an atypical ESTJ in that sense. Maybe they attribute that willingness to having been raised by types quite dissimilar from you, because they haven't generally encountered that with the ESTJs they know. What do you think?

 

[Peel]

Hey Peel Welcome to the forum!

Pretty much everything you describe in this post is a universal trait, imo, and not type-related - but I'll be more specific:

I really don't think this is related to personality type. This is related to knowing what you feel like you need to listen to in the lecture, and what you don't. I'm guessing that she shushed you when she knew that the professor was saying something important, and when the professor was talking about something she already knew about or that she considered unimportant, THAT'S when you can chat/draw. It's like when you're watching a movie; you don't want to talk when the action's happening, but you want to talk when you'll miss something less important.

This is also basic human behavior. No one is perfectly confident, and everyone has vulnerabilities that they hide. Although one little detail in there did strike me as type-related, and that is what I bolded. She may have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but what an ESTJ (or more probably, an ESTJ girl) would consider a "close" friend - i.e. a friend who you can completely bare your soul to, and be completely vulnerable around, and confide in them through thick and thin - is hard to come by. We don't make "close" friends very easily. There's a line, you know?

And as for the quiet vs. chatty thing - yeah, ESTJs are single-minded. If something bugs us, we have a hard time keeping our minds off it until the issue is resolved. This includes being hungry and really wanting food but it could also include any number of other things. She probably messaged you after she ate and therefore after the issue was resolved and she was relaxed again.

Again, this is universal. The truth hurts no matter what your personality type. The difference is whether you think the truth is important enough to be worth the pain. As much as an ESTJ may be hurt by a blunt comment, what separates them from many other types is that they're likely to realize that the comment was valuable, and they will often be glad that comment was made to them, despite any pain along the way.

No problem! It's common for ESTJs to seem like they don't care all that much, at the beginning of a friendship. I will admit to thinking of many friendly acquaintances as fun diversions and not as real people - which is pretty harsh but also a good way to keep from being hurt emotionally by someone you barely know which is why I (and other ESTJs) reserve my loyalty for close friends who I know won't disappoint me or backstab me later.

As for friendship advice - based on everything you've been saying, you seem to be taking your ESTJ friend very much at surface level. So my advice to you would be to remember that she has flaws and vulnerabilities just like everyone. She may seem absolutely and perfectly capable of anything you ask her to do. She may seem impossible to hurt. She may seem 100% self-confident at all times. But that's just because she doesn't talk to people about her vulnerabilities. (It's kind of an extension of ESTJ task-oriented thinking: they only want to talk about their insecurities and feelings if it'll solve some sort of problem*.) And because she doesn't really talk to people about them, it's very very important that you recognize when she does, and that you don't undermine it, because if you're dismissive, she'll think to herself "If that's how he's going to act every time I open up, then I can never open up to him again, and therefore i can't be his close friend." And then she'll distance herself from you and you'll probably end up being her friendly acquaintance again.

But that's not really xNFP specific. Regarding your type in particular: if you're like the INFPs I know, you're probably a little flaky, and prone towards making huge blanket statements without backing them up. Both of those traits annoy the crap out of ESTJs, especially when combined. For example, one of my INFP friends decided that she would give up chocolate for a month, then wouldn't give me a straight answer as to why (first "to lose weight", second "because of poor labor conditions in ecuador", and third "because it's just something I want to do - why is everyone making such a big deal out of it??"), and then thought it wasn't a big deal to eat a chocolate bar a week later. For ESTJs, if you say you're going to do something, you know why you're doing it, and you do it to the best of your ability, and anything else makes no sense. That's been the biggest communication with my xNFP friendships, and it may be the same for you.

Hope that helped some!


*defining "problem" loosely. for example, "I'm feeling sad. This is a problem. I've tried dealing with it on my own, and it hasn't worked. Maybe I should talk to someone who would understand."

Thanks so much EJCC! That makes much more sense especially if I think of things as being "task orientated". I probably agree with you on the things not being type specific, but I guess the thing that confuses me the most is how quickly she changes mindsets.

Just another question that's related: is there any reason why ESTJs find it hard making close friends? Is it because they have stricter definitions for what a close friend is, because they are more cautious with people, etc?

Thanks again

 

[EJCC]

Perhaps your self-awareness/willingness to verbalize what's going on is what accounts for people's perception that you are an atypical ESTJ in that sense. Maybe they attribute that willingness to having been raised by types quite dissimilar from you, because they haven't generally encountered that with the ESTJs they know. What do you think?

Maybe. Although the fact that the post came from an NFJ (which I probably should have mentioned earlier) brought this whole other subtext with it: "NFJs are considerate. EJCC is considerate. Her mom is NFJ. COINCIDENCE???" ... without thinking that the ability to be considerate and thoughtful and - most importantly - INTROSPECTIVE - is not necessarily type-related! I do a lot of introspecting, and I did even before I found MBTI. I was always on the lookout for ways to improve myself - and since that seems Te-related, I'm sure that many other ESTJs are like that too. And as we all know, there are nice people of all types.

Also, a relevant song quote: "You never know just how you look through other people's eyes".

Thanks so much EJCC! That makes much more sense especially if I think of things as being "task orientated". I probably agree with you on the things not being type specific, but I guess the thing that confuses me the most is how quickly she changes mindsets.

Interesting. I wonder if that is, actually, type-related.

Just another question that's related: is there any reason why ESTJs find it hard making close friends? Is it because they have stricter definitions for what a close friend is, because they are more cautious with people, etc?

Thanks again

No problem! It's a little bit of both, and they're mutually reinforcing. We have stricter definitions of what makes a "close friend" - i.e. what makes someone worth opening up to - because we don't want to take the risk of growing close to someone who will hurt us later.

A quote from earlier that's relevant:

She may have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but what an ESTJ (or more probably, an ESTJ girl) would consider a "close" friend - i.e. a friend who you can completely bare your soul to, and be completely vulnerable around, and confide in them through thick and thin - is hard to come by. We don't make "close" friends very easily. There's a line, you know?

...I will admit to thinking of many friendly acquaintances as fun diversions and not as real people - which is pretty harsh but also a good way to keep from being hurt emotionally by someone you barely know which is why I (and other ESTJs) reserve my loyalty for close friends who I know won't disappoint me or backstab me later.

 

[Fidelia]

I agree - no type has got a corner on considerate and thoughtful. In fact, I've found that ESTJs tend to be extremely considerate in many areas which don't come naturally to me. In my experience, they notice what the other person's practical needs are and work quickly to deal with them. They are a lot more adaptable than me in terms of trying to speak in another person's love language. I've found that they are pretty universally tremendous at noticing details about how others communicate and putting the person at ease through using those observations to inform their behaviour. I am easily embarrassed, especially when I am in unfamiliar territory, and I've found that ESTJs matter-of-fact manner, knowledgeability and interest in being of use has made them one of the more likely types I'd go to for an explanation or help with something.

As far as introspective - yes I agree with you on that! ESTJs are extremely introspective. I think that where INFJs may make the distinction is what they are introspective about and also how much they verbalize it. Self-improvement - absolutely! That's one of you people's defining features! Also, taking in what is around you, thinking about it and applying it in real terms is a form of introspection that I think we are pretty weak in by comparison.

If I were to ask a lot of ESTJs how they felt about a certain event that had happened in their life and what they would have done same or differently though, I'm not sure what kind of response I'd be likely to get. You've said that this thread's questions have made you think about some things that you may not have been as likely to otherwise. Do you think this is the kind of stuff that that person may have been referring to? (I don't know, just am wondering what you think...)

 

[Redbone]

She may have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but what an ESTJ (or more probably, an ESTJ girl) would consider a "close" friend - i.e. a friend who you can completely bare your soul to, and be completely vulnerable around, and confide in them through thick and thin - is hard to come by. We don't make "close" friends very easily. There's a line, you know?

And what would make you decide to cross that line? Is what you see in that person, the feedback you receive from them, or that they seem to know where you are coming from?

One of my ESTJs blew up my phone this morning unloading on me. I was kind of shocked. We both talk to each other about our problems but we both tend to be matter-of-fact about it. Not this time. When we got on the subject of our current issues, he admitted that he gets scared, confused, and freaks out. He said no one may see it (well, he said it was important that no one sees this) but on the inside, he is coming apart. He spoke of his fatigue, his frustration, and even being lonely despite being surrounded by friends and family. I was really surprised that he was so emotional about it. Oddly enough, when we have talked before, he always ends the conversation on a "hell, I said too much" vibe. This time, he was more like, "I'm glad I talked to you. Thank you." I've known him for a very long time and he's never been like that. It makes me wonder what happened. I feel like an invisible line has been crossed.

I look back over conversations over the last few times that we have talked and noticed a different tone to them. So, he's been heading in this direction for a little bit. I just didn't notice it.

As always, thanks in advance.