[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Tamske]

I wasn't talking about consistency, were you suggesting that my post is inconsistent? Anyway, my point with mentioning Te at the end was that I don't know what point I'm making until my post is actually done. I thought this was due to weak Te. Te seems to be useful for planning out posts beforehand. I notice this when writing essays too. Professors seem to want a very Te kind of thing where you lay out your main arguments in the intro, super structured essay. To do this, I have to write the intro after the rest is done, because I don't know what I think unless I've already written it out. I don't know what side I'm arguing for unless I've argued and finished. Hence the rambling. Te could probably condense this post itself down to two lines - efficiency, yes, I need that!

Didn't mean to call you inconsistent. I just thought you were mixing up Te and Ti, but this post surely points out you weren't.

But here's the thing - Good friends should help each other, right? So, she tells me that she has this grand plan, and even though I think her plan makes no sense, it's my duty to help her if she falls off the cookie wagon. Honestly, if she was taking it seriously, shouldn't she have thanked me for convincing her to not eat them? I'm not sure how much, in this situation, the ESTJ should be blamed, considering that we're operating under the assumption that the INFP (or whoever) will do what they say they will do, and will feel about it the way they appear to.

Of course it isn't the ESTJ's "fault" or anything. I just tried to get into the mindset of your friend here, and it was quite easy even. My Fe says: you just don't comment on things other people do wrong, especially if those things don't affect you. You see this as helping, but they see it as nagging!
I think Sui Generis has made a nice point about it - the ESTJ's side: "why tell me something as serious as such an intent if you don't want me to care about it? If it wasn't serious, why didn't you say so?"
While our INFP (and this ENTP!) would only appreciate the ESTJ's help (nagging ) if they explicitly asked for it. The border between "I'm intending to do this and I want your support" and "I'm intending to do this but don't comment if I'm failing" seems to lie on different places. I tend to make this really clear. I'd say things like "I'd like to try out this, see if it works" or "Look, I want to reach this goal, want to help?"

I began to tell the chocolate story to my husband and he cut me off at the point the friend took some chocolate.
"And then EJCC commented on it and that was not a good idea!" he guessed!

 

[EJCC]

So glad to be helpful! It's not something I'd even thought of until that conversation... except that the more I thought about it, I realized something. That asking-me-what-I-need approach is SO helpful to me that I find myself doing it to other people.. who find it less helpful. I remember talking to a friend who was upset, and I was like... so, how can I help? Do you need a hug or to talk or....? She looked at me like I'd grown a second head. I felt stupid for not being able to intuit what she needed automatically.

I relate to this SO MUCH. I'll bet it relates less to MBTI and more to the 5 Love Languages -

Acts of Service

Can vacuuming the floors really be an expression of love? Absolutely! Anything you do to ease the burden of responsibilities weighing on an “Acts of Service” person will speak volumes. The words he or she most want to hear: “Let me do that for you.” Laziness, broken commitments, and making more work for them tell speakers of this language their feelings don’t matter.

- since I know INTPs who ask questions like that as well.

Of course it isn't the ESTJ's "fault" or anything. I just tried to get into the mindset of your friend here, and it was quite easy even. My Fe says: you just don't comment on things other people do wrong, especially if those things don't affect you. You see this as helping, but they see it as nagging!
I think Sui Generis has made a nice point about it - the ESTJ's side: "why tell me something as serious as such an intent if you don't want me to care about it? If it wasn't serious, why didn't you say so?"
While our INFP (and this ENTP!) would only appreciate the ESTJ's help (nagging ) if they explicitly asked for it. The border between "I'm intending to do this and I want your support" and "I'm intending to do this but don't comment if I'm failing" seems to lie on different places. I tend to make this really clear. I'd say things like "I'd like to try out this, see if it works" or "Look, I want to reach this goal, want to help?"

That makes sense, I suppose. So... how should I react, from now on, when I hear announcements like that? Because, like sui generis, I don't relate a lot to the other side of my story, I'm not sure what they're expecting from me, and from other people they talk to. Do I nod and smile and stay out of it?

I began to tell the chocolate story to my husband and he cut me off at the point the friend took some chocolate.
"And then EJCC commented on it and that was not a good idea!" he guessed!

That cracks me up! I'm glad to know that he related to it that much.

 

[Tamske]

So glad to be helpful! It's not something I'd even thought of until that conversation... except that the more I thought about it, I realized something. That asking-me-what-I-need approach is SO helpful to me that I find myself doing it to other people.. who find it less helpful. I remember talking to a friend who was upset, and I was like... so, how can I help? Do you need a hug or to talk or....? She looked at me like I'd grown a second head. I felt stupid for not being able to intuit what she needed automatically.

Me too, I can relate to this. Except that, when I'm really upset, I don't know what I need, because I don't understand my own emotions. I feel "bad" but until I know if "bad" is "worried" or "afraid" or "sad" or... Luckily this is quite rare and usually I start the conversation with "I need a hug" or the like. Very efficient, you'd probably like it

[...]
That makes sense, I suppose. So... how should I react, from now on, when I hear announcements like that? Because, like sui generis, I don't relate a lot to the other side of my story, I'm not sure what they're expecting from me, and from other people they talk to. Do I nod and smile and stay out of it?

I'm afraid I can't offer a general rule to put into your Si I've been thinking about it, how I would react... but usually I just forget about other people's plans and the question doesn't arise. I can't remember I've ever been at the ESTJ's side of the story.
Never comment? I don't think that's a perfect option either. If my hubby hasn't commented on my contradictory complaints about never finishing a story and just amusing myself, I'd , ever had that deadline system which greatly improved my writing (and resulted in two finished manuscripts already).
I guess, whatever you do, you'll always get misunderstandings... Others (or even the same people in other situations) will be thankful for the same sort of communication.

 

[beyondaurora]

EJCC -- Awesome thread! Don't know if I'll ever get through it all, but it's been enlightening. : )

I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

Thanks. : )

 

[EJCC]

EJCC -- Awesome thread! Don't know if I'll ever get through it all, but it's been enlightening. : )

I wouldn't blame you if you didn't get through it! May I be the first to say that this thread is fucking LONG!!! I would actually be surprised and VERY impressed if you managed to get through the whole thing. But by no means are you required to read it all.

I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

Thanks. : )

Wow! That was a douchey comment, but props to him for being so honest! I don't know if you've seen all the bizarre gender dynamics on this forum recently, but after seeing all these TypeC men complaining about how they can't say what they think when they're around women, it's really refreshing to hear about guys who don't irrationally keep information from women, and therefore don't get resentful towards them.

So, I guess... as an ESTJ, I appreciate that he talks like that. But as for whether you should give him a free pass - it's all you. You're the one who's going out with him, and therefore your feelings are most important, so you should decide. If that offended you and you're worried about him continuing to talk to you like that, I recommend talking to him about it, i.e. telling him that you were offended and you would rather that he not talk to you like that anymore.* Better to have that conversation sooner than later, in my opinion; It's important to know that, from my (vicarious) experience, the most common reason for ESTJ/INFx breakups is that the INFx starts to feel resentful towards their ESTJ partner for behaviors like that (or even less than that - things as small as perceived nagging, or withdrawing emotionally when under stress), when they had thought that it could maybe be "fixed", or simply endured, initially... leaving the ESTJ confused and bewildered; "I thought you were okay with me acting like that!"

Hope that helps a little


*One nice thing about ESTJs is that, for the most part, they can take the kinds of blunt comments that they give. They often appreciate it, when you're harshly honest with them. In my case, the way I see it is that even though harsh honesty can really hurt, it's necessary and it helps more than it hurts.

 

[A window to the soul]

I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

Thanks. : )

You're only one month in and he's already starting in on you? Were you fighting when he said that? It does make a difference.

P.S., prepare yourself, this is going to get exciting ...

Though maybe he's not really "starting in", maybe he's just being brutally honest. I think it really depends on the context and tone.

 

[sui generis]

Yeah, I'm torn. My first thought was "what a douche!"... but it's also possible he was just thinking out loud. Then again, "douche" and "ESTJ" aren't mutually exclusive. (Even though most of us are pretty awesome.)

 

[mochajava]

Well, so it may or may not be douchey, but it is placing a value on how much he likes you you based on how you look... So it's like, "I would like you better if you were cuter by my definition" and it just depends on whether you're okay with that.

I had a weird experience about it. Once, I cut off 12"of hair to donate to locks of love, and my husband's best friend said, "I would dump my girlfriend if she did that." Whoa, strong value judgment! She couldn't make up for her lack of [donated] hair in any other way?

 

[beyondaurora]

You're the one who's going out with him, and therefore your feelings are most important, so you should decide. If that offended you and you're worried about him continuing to talk to you like that, I recommend talking to him about it, i.e. telling him that you were offended and you would rather that he not talk to you like that anymore.

Hope that helps a little

Helps a lot! Thank you. : ) Unfortunately, talking to him about it hasn't helped. We read the ESTJ/INFP section of "Just Your Type" in which the readers are presented ideas for how to relate to each other. We both agreed to implement the half-dozen suggestions, which included him listening and acknowledging the validity of my feelings even if he doesn't agree with or understand them and me trying to stay calm when upset and to not overreact. So much easier said than done! When I have expressed my dissatisfaction with these types of comments, he says, "Baby, you're overreacting! This is silly. You shouldn't feel like that. You're acting like a child." All of which ends up hurting my feelings even more!

You're only one month in and he's already starting in on you? Were you fighting when he said that? It does make a difference.

LOL, Nerd Girl! We were in no way fighting. I was actually *gasp* baking a cake in lingerie (the latter part was at his request…oh my!) and had just sat down with him on the couch when he made that comment.

Yeah, I'm torn. My first thought was "what a douche!"... but it's also possible he was just thinking out loud. Then again, "douche" and "ESTJ" aren't mutually exclusive. (Even though most of us are pretty awesome.)

Haha, sui generis! He makes a point of saying he’s awesome at least once a day. : ) Too funny. When I tell him something I love about him, he says, “Tell me something I don’t already know.” All playing around, of course, but it’s the opposite kind of playing that I do – I typically employ self-depreciating humor.

Well, so it may or may not be douchey, but it is placing a value on how much he likes you you based on how you look... So it's like, "I would like you better if you were cuter by my definition" and it just depends on whether you're okay with that.

I had a weird experience about it. Once, I cut off 12"of hair to donate to locks of love, and my husband's best friend said, "I would dump my girlfriend if she did that." Whoa, strong value judgment! She couldn't make up for her lack of [donated] hair in any other way?

Yeah, mochajava, I think that’s a really strong value judgment that doesn’t jive with my own values. Love, for me, has no correlation to hair length, but I *suppose* I could see another type having a set criteria for “love”, with physical attraction being a strong criterion and hair length being a factor in physical attraction. Still, I don’t want to be “loved” for my body parts or hair length.

-----Ultimately, I’m an INFP who is very prone to being overly sensitive, and he’s an ESTJ who very naturally says what’s on his mind without regard to another’s feelings or interpretations. That’s just the reality of it.

Last night when asked if he got along well with my friend whom he had just met, he said, while holding me in bed, “Her hair smelled nice. When I hugged her I could smell her hair, and it smelled really nice.” He thought that was a perfectly appropriate comment (and it may be!), but I wanted to kick him in the balls. He thought he was just stating a fact about something he observed. I’m embarrassed to say that my mind went “hair smells nice ---> pheromones ---> attraction ---> never said my hair smelled nice ---> not attracted to me” (Oy! I exhaust myself with this thinking, believe me!). BUT, I contained my emotions, and simply said to him that I thought that was an odd comment to make at that moment and that it didn’t make me feel good. He thought that me having any negative feeling toward that was completely irrational and childish. Again, perhaps it was irrational to not feel good about it, but who said feelings were rational! : ) It will be interesting to see how long we can tolerate *each other* and how much progress we can make toward meeting each other somewhere near halfway.

Thanks all for the input! : )

 

[Tamske]

-----Ultimately, I’m an INFP who is very prone to being overly sensitive, and he’s an ESTJ who very naturally says what’s on his mind without regard to another’s feelings or interpretations. That’s just the reality of it.

Is it? I've read your other answers too. It seems to me, whenever this sort of thing comes up, he always pulls at the long end.
You feel bad when he's complimenting your friend and not complimenting you. That's actually the sort of straightforward, logical emotion that even the most extreme T should understand. This is the sort of bad emotion we can live with: it has a cause and can be get rid of.
I don't like the "I feel bad about... you know... well if you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not telling you" sort of emotional breakdown. It's not my fault I can't read or guess what's wrong. But you're not doing this!

My hubby (ESTJ indeed) loves the way we deal with emotions. We give each other feedback of the same sort as you do. "You make me feel good now because..." "It irks me if you do this, because..." "Please just listen, I need to rant a bit about my work" "I'm sorry to be grumpy, you can't help"

I've got this idea that you more or less believe him when he says those emotions are childish and irrational - which means you're at fault and should stop whining about that, while he can just go on being inconsiderate.
But they aren't. They are subjective. And there's nothing wrong with being subjective. After all, it IS about you! It's you who has to put up with it. You aren't a puppet.

 

[mochajava]

I think it's a big red flag when anyone says "don't feel that way, you're being _________". You already feel that way! That person is denying a reality in front of their eyes, which to me, is the height of being illogical.

 

[EJCC]

Helps a lot! Thank you. : ) Unfortunately, talking to him about it hasn't helped. We read the ESTJ/INFP section of "Just Your Type" in which the readers are presented ideas for how to relate to each other. We both agreed to implement the half-dozen suggestions, which included him listening and acknowledging the validity of my feelings even if he doesn't agree with or understand them and me trying to stay calm when upset and to not overreact. So much easier said than done! When I have expressed my dissatisfaction with these types of comments, he says, "Baby, you're overreacting! This is silly. You shouldn't feel like that. You're acting like a child." All of which ends up hurting my feelings even more!

Hmmm. I'm not sure how you should respond to that. I'm definitely on your side, though; telling someone not to feel something never, ever works. You can't order your feelings around. Sometimes you can reason people out of them, but you can't just tell them what to do. Frankly I don't understand people who believe otherwise.

Haha, sui generis! He makes a point of saying he’s awesome at least once a day. : ) Too funny. When I tell him something I love about him, he says, “Tell me something I don’t already know.”

I know people who say stuff like that But I wonder, with your ESTJ... how much is he exaggerating when he makes egotistical statements like that?

Yeah, mochajava, I think that’s a really strong value judgment that doesn’t jive with my own values. Love, for me, has no correlation to hair length, but I *suppose* I could see another type having a set criteria for “love”, with physical attraction being a strong criterion and hair length being a factor in physical attraction. Still, I don’t want to be “loved” for my body parts or hair length.

Something tells me that he didn't mean "love" in the traditional sense... It was a weird choice of words. Could he have meant the physical act of love? or just "like"?

Last night when asked if he got along well with my friend whom he had just met, he said, while holding me in bed, “Her hair smelled nice. When I hugged her I could smell her hair, and it smelled really nice.” He thought that was a perfectly appropriate comment (and it may be!), but I wanted to kick him in the balls. He thought he was just stating a fact about something he observed. I’m embarrassed to say that my mind went “hair smells nice ---> pheromones ---> attraction ---> never said my hair smelled nice ---> not attracted to me” (Oy! I exhaust myself with this thinking, believe me!). BUT, I contained my emotions, and simply said to him that I thought that was an odd comment to make at that moment and that it didn’t make me feel good. He thought that me having any negative feeling toward that was completely irrational and childish. Again, perhaps it was irrational to not feel good about it, but who said feelings were rational! : ) It will be interesting to see how long we can tolerate *each other* and how much progress we can make toward meeting each other somewhere near halfway.

I do stuff like that all the time. But unlike your ESTJ, I understand the opposite thought process. It doesn't seem like your ESTJ is very good at empathizing with other people, or seeing opposite points of view. Reminds me of myself when I was less mature. But I suppose, if you don't terribly mind that aspect of him...?

Is it? I've read your other answers too. It seems to me, whenever this sort of thing comes up, he always pulls at the long end.
You feel bad when he's complimenting your friend and not complimenting you. That's actually the sort of straightforward, logical emotion that even the most extreme T should understand. This is the sort of bad emotion we can live with: it has a cause and can be get rid of.
I don't like the "I feel bad about... you know... well if you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not telling you" sort of emotional breakdown. It's not my fault I can't read or guess what's wrong. But you're not doing this!

My hubby (ESTJ indeed) loves the way we deal with emotions. We give each other feedback of the same sort as you do. "You make me feel good now because..." "It irks me if you do this, because..." "Please just listen, I need to rant a bit about my work" "I'm sorry to be grumpy, you can't help"

I've got this idea that you more or less believe him when he says those emotions are childish and irrational - which means you're at fault and should stop whining about that, while he can just go on being inconsiderate.
But they aren't. They are subjective. And there's nothing wrong with being subjective. After all, it IS about you! It's you who has to put up with it. You aren't a puppet.

+1

And I absolutely LOVE the bolded!

 

[A window to the soul]

Haha, sui generis! He makes a point of saying he’s awesome at least once a day. : ) Too funny. When I tell him something I love about him, he says, “Tell me something I don’t already know.” All playing around, of course, but it’s the opposite kind of playing that I do – I typically employ self-depreciating humor.

And when you're not together does he text you pics of himself standing naked in front of the mirror?

Last night when asked if he got along well with my friend whom he had just met, he said, while holding me in bed, “Her hair smelled nice. When I hugged her I could smell her hair, and it smelled really nice.” He thought that was a perfectly appropriate comment (and it may be!), but I wanted to kick him in the balls. He thought he was just stating a fact about something he observed. I’m embarrassed to say that my mind went “hair smells nice ---> pheromones ---> attraction ---> never said my hair smelled nice ---> not attracted to me” (Oy! I exhaust myself with this thinking, believe me!). BUT, I contained my emotions, and simply said to him that I thought that was an odd comment to make at that moment and that it didn’t make me feel good. He thought that me having any negative feeling toward that was completely irrational and childish. Again, perhaps it was irrational to not feel good about it, but who said feelings were rational! : ) It will be interesting to see how long we can tolerate *each other* and how much progress we can make toward meeting each other somewhere near halfway.

You can talk to him. Even better, break up with him. He'll beg you back and promise to change. You might get short-term gains out of that where he's a saint for a week or two; ah, a day or two, lolz!! <--counter productive (as EJCC said, he may not be very good at empathizing and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that kind of change)

I'm just throwing this out there as a way to test to see if he's saying these things to get a rise out of you. Next time he says something like that to you, just smile and nod like all is well with the world. Then, change the subject. See what he does. If the conversation moves on, then it was prolly an innocent comment. However, if he goes backwards and starts talking about it and doesn't stop until you get flustered, then there's your answer. In that case it's best NOT to get flustered next time. If you get quiet, he'll be the one going nutso because you shut down. Sounds like game play; it is. <--also, counter productive

BUT... Best not play games. IF you are serious about staying in the relationship and you determine, via logical analysis of the facts, that he's not intentionally trying to disrespect you, then it's prolly best to learn how to spar with an ESTJ and not get bent out of shape. As an INFP, if you are internalizing stuff and taking things personally, it's going to be an emotional roller coaster for you. Maybe he's not your man. If you learn to laugh it off and turn it around with wit, you'll have a lot more fun with your ESTJ. Might be exhausting for you. Might be exciting for you. I think that all depends on you.

 

[Habba]

"Baby, you're overreacting! This is silly. You shouldn't feel like that. You're acting like a child." All of which ends up hurting my feelings even more!

We STJs so rarely have that strong emotions, that it's difficult for us to understand when someone is being hurt and why would they be hurt. For us, things are either true (in which case they should be fixed) or false (in which case the perception of things should be fixed). We rarely take a personal stance on anything. That's why the things we say are not meant to be taken personally either.

Luckily, I have recently learned that only message delivered matters. So nowadays I'm more concerned in people's emotions than the facts. Sometimes I wonder if it was possible for me to transform into ISFJ

LOL, Nerd Girl! We were in no way fighting. I was actually *gasp* baking a cake in lingerie (the latter part was at his request…oh my!) and had just sat down with him on the couch when he made that comment.

I like this.

Yeah, mochajava, I think that’s a really strong value judgment that doesn’t jive with my own values. Love, for me, has no correlation to hair length, but I *suppose* I could see another type having a set criteria for “love”, with physical attraction being a strong criterion and hair length being a factor in physical attraction. Still, I don’t want to be “loved” for my body parts or hair length.

He did not say that he would not love you if you had shorter hair. He simple stated he'd like you MORE. That word is a comparative, which is used to compare two things with each others. As it's being a superlative, it says nothing about the actual quality of things. Being better than something else doesn't make the thing itself good. Know what I'm saying?

He simply stated that a he'd like to see you with longer hair, and that it would fit you. What you heard was not what he meant, obviously.

Besides, I vaguely recall reading this from a book about Emotional Intelligence
Romantic relationship is a combination of these three areas of interaction:

• Respect - How much does person admire the other person (approving thoughts)
• Attraction - How much physical attraction is there (approving habitus)
• Empathy - How much does person care what is happening to the other person (approving emotions)

I think you should acknowledge the fact that physical attraction is part of love, and to feel more physically attracted is actually to feel more love. But of course, 1/3 does not make a whole.

-----Ultimately, I’m an INFP who is very prone to being overly sensitive, and he’s an ESTJ who very naturally says what’s on his mind without regard to another’s feelings or interpretations. That’s just the reality of it.

I know how it feels to be judged based on what I say. I rarely have strong opinions over matters, but I do quite often say out loud my observations. For an example, I might say that I liked the soundtrack of a specific movie... and few months later a friend would be "shocked" to hear that I never liked the movie. My observation about the soundtrack was interpreted as my opinion of the whole movie. But we STJs don't really work that way. We like details, not the sum of details. So if we say we like something, it doesn't mean that we'd like all the things that are attached to that thing. We are just are capable of liking specific details.

Last night when asked if he got along well with my friend whom he had just met, he said, while holding me in bed, “Her hair smelled nice. When I hugged her I could smell her hair, and it smelled really nice.” He thought that was a perfectly appropriate comment (and it may be!), but I wanted to kick him in the balls. He thought he was just stating a fact about something he observed. I’m embarrassed to say that my mind went “hair smells nice ---> pheromones ---> attraction ---> never said my hair smelled nice ---> not attracted to me” (Oy! I exhaust myself with this thinking, believe me!).

And just couple of sentences away you said something about not wanting to be loved for your body parts... :/

But honestly I wouldn't like hearing from my girlfriend that some guy had a great perfume or handsome beard. I would feel the same way as you would. Even if the statement was trutful. I'd rather hear about how she's happy to be with me, as we are.

BUT, I contained my emotions, and simply said to him that I thought that was an odd comment to make at that moment and that it didn’t make me feel good. He thought that me having any negative feeling toward that was completely irrational and childish. Again, perhaps it was irrational to not feel good about it, but who said feelings were rational! : ) It will be interesting to see how long we can tolerate *each other* and how much progress we can make toward meeting each other somewhere near halfway.

Don't be afraid to hurt his emotions, because they can't be easily hurted. Primary Te-users expect to be countered and argued back when incorrect. They get insulted when not countered, but silently resisted.

 

[mochajava]

EJCC - Tell me about details vs. the larger picture. When do you like to see the larger picture, if at all?

What brings me to ask is that my ESTJ MIL always asks me these minutiae ("what's the temperature there?" "how far is it?" "what airline are you taking?") to make conversation, and I never, ever know the answers! I usually just ask her questions instead, but they're more big picture... I miss minutiae so much. I want to know how my friends are doing, moreso than what they're doing, and I think she would find that absolutely crazy.

 

[sui generis]

Don't be afraid to hurt his emotions, because they can't be easily hurted. Primary Te-users expect to be countered and argued back when incorrect. They get insulted when not countered, but silently resisted.

I'm inclined to disagree that STJs rarely have strong emotions- I'm passionate about everything, but at the same time I know that I don't feeeel everything as intensely as my INFP and ENFP friends. But I TOTALLY agree about this quoted part-- I've said it before, but I don't respect people who just back down with their tail between their legs. I want to be challenged and even if it smarts for a second, I'd rather know if I'm totally wrong. And I'd never thought about it before, but it does kind of feel like a personal affront.

 

[EJCC]

We STJs so rarely have that strong emotions, that it's difficult for us to understand when someone is being hurt and why would they be hurt. For us, things are either true (in which case they should be fixed) or false (in which case the perception of things should be fixed). We rarely take a personal stance on anything. That's why the things we say are not meant to be taken personally either.

I strongly disagree with the bolded (my emotions can be very strong, especially when they relate to excitement, or righteous anger/frustration), but agree with the rest. The Te and lack of Fe disconnects us from possible emotional results of what we do. If there's a problem, you fix it. Oh wait, that hurt someone's feelings? Crap, I didn't expect that!

I like this.

You, sir, are a creeper.

I know how it feels to be judged based on what I say. I rarely have strong opinions over matters, but I do quite often say out loud my observations. For an example, I might say that I liked the soundtrack of a specific movie... and few months later a friend would be "shocked" to hear that I never liked the movie. My observation about the soundtrack was interpreted as my opinion of the whole movie. But we STJs don't really work that way. We like details, not the sum of details. So if we say we like something, it doesn't mean that we'd like all the things that are attached to that thing. We are just are capable of liking specific details.

I'm always surprised by people's inability to understand that I can detach myself from broader concepts like that. Often I find myself playing devil's advocate because I can find things to criticize and things to compliment in pretty much everything, and so people who are more big-picture thinkers get frustrated with me for, from their perspective, "siding with the bad guys". I distinctly remember a conversation after a movie, where I made critical statements about the acting and the special effects, and one of my friends (an INFJ) got upset with me and asked me to "stop being so negative". I replied that I wasn't, and that I just wanted to start a conversation about the movie, and that I really enjoyed it.

It doesn't help that I grew up having conversations like that with my dad (INTP) after watching movies - i.e. conversations where we stated our particular likes and dislikes, things that struck us and things we thought were boring/stupid/etc, and finishing with our overall review of the movie. It's surprisingly hard to find people to have that sort of discussion with, nowadays

Don't be afraid to hurt his emotions, because they can't be easily hurted. Primary Te-users expect to be countered and argued back when incorrect. They get insulted when not countered, but silently resisted.

This is true too. I also agree with sui generis' entire post.

EJCC - Tell me about details vs. the larger picture. When do you like to see the larger picture, if at all?

What brings me to ask is that my ESTJ MIL always asks me these minutiae ("what's the temperature there?" "how far is it?" "what airline are you taking?") to make conversation, and I never, ever know the answers! I usually just ask her questions instead, but they're more big picture... I miss minutiae so much. I want to know how my friends are doing, moreso than what they're doing, and I think she would find that absolutely crazy.

We generally make our "big picture" views out of little details. She's probably asking you all those questions so that she can get a big picture understanding of how/what you're doing. If a friend just says that they're doing fine, or makes broad statements about a thing, I could either trust what they're saying without question or I could judge the situation based on all the information they have that I don't have. Many of my friends and family members (mostly NFs) have a tendency to exaggerate, and if I took what they were saying as the truth without drilling them for details, I might end up seriously misjudging them.

That was sort of stream-of-consciousness, but I hope it helps...

 

[Giggly]

And when you're not together does he text you pics of himself standing naked in front of the mirror?


You can talk to him. Even better, break up with him. He'll beg you back and promise to change. You might get short-term gains out of that where he's a saint for a week or two; ah, a day or two, lolz!! <--counter productive (as EJCC said, he may not be very good at empathizing and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that kind of change)

I'm just throwing this out there as a way to test to see if he's saying these things to get a rise out of you. Next time he says something like that to you, just smile and nod like all is well with the world. Then, change the subject. See what he does. If the conversation moves on, then it was prolly an innocent comment. However, if he goes backwards and starts talking about it and doesn't stop until you get flustered, then there's your answer. In that case it's best NOT to get flustered next time. If you get quiet, he'll be the one going nutso because you shut down. Sounds like game play; it is. <--also, counter productive

BUT... Best not play games. IF you are serious about staying in the relationship and you determine, via logical analysis of the facts, that he's not intentionally trying to disrespect you, then it's prolly best to learn how to spar with an ESTJ and not get bent out of shape. As an INFP, if you are internalizing stuff and taking things personally, it's going to be an emotional roller coaster for you. Maybe he's not your man. If you learn to laugh it off and turn it around with wit, you'll have a lot more fun with your ESTJ. Might be exhausting for you. Might be exciting for you. I think that all depends on you.

This.

Thinkers like that generally do better with other Thinkers and ExFPs.

 

[Habba]

We STJs so rarely have that strong emotions.

I'm inclined to disagree that STJs rarely have strong emotions- I'm passionate about everything, but at the same time I know that I don't feeeel everything as intensely as my INFP and ENFP friends.

I strongly disagree with the bolded (my emotions can be very strong, especially when they relate to excitement, or righteous anger/frustration)

This comment seemed to raise opposition... I think I chose my words badly. Let's try again... STJs rarely make decision based on their emotions, as they are more inclined to do choices they feel are logical. At best case they make excellent referees at sport, at worst they make strict by-the-book dictators. I think STJs rarely say "I want to do this my way" and rather argue what would be the best way to do it in general. Their emotional/personal attachment to decisions is not as strong as it's for, say NFs.

You, sir, are a creeper.

What's wrong with cakes?

It doesn't help that I grew up having conversations like that with my dad (INTP) after watching movies - i.e. conversations where we stated our particular likes and dislikes, things that struck us and things we thought were boring/stupid/etc, and finishing with our overall review of the movie. It's surprisingly hard to find people to have that sort of discussion with, nowadays

Well, quite often I find myself liking some specific aspect of a movie so much, that I don't care if the rest of it is garbage. For example, the newest Tron. I liked it a lot due to soundtrack and visuals, even though I could argue that the plot was boring, unimaginate and unbelievable.

 

[EJCC]

This comment seemed to raise opposition... I think I chose my words badly. Let's try again... STJs rarely make decision based on their emotions, as they are more inclined to do choices they feel are logical. At best case they make excellent referees at sport, at worst they make strict by-the-book dictators. I think STJs rarely say "I want to do this my way" and rather argue what would be the best way to do it in general. Their emotional/personal attachment to decisions is not as strong as it's for, say NFs.

Very, very true. The bolded is the correct answer to a common misunderstanding, with STJs. I feel like a lot of anti-STJ bias comes from people thinking that we are overly stubborn and don't listen to opposing opinions, when we really do listen - more than a lot of types do. But many people tend to misinterpret our commonly acknowledged "need to be right" as a "need for our current opinion to be right", as opposed to a "need to hold the correct opinion, whether it's ours someone else's that we adopted".

What's wrong with cakes?

I definitely thought you were responding to the scantily clad aspect of her post. Pardon me! Nothing's wrong with cakes.

Well, quite often I find myself liking some specific aspect of a movie so much, that I don't care if the rest of it is garbage. For example, the newest Tron. I liked it a lot due to soundtrack and visuals, even though I could argue that the plot was boring, unimaginate and unbelievable.

Exactly! This is how I am with Linkin Park. Any conversation I have with someone about music that I listen to usually involves me saying "I know that I shouldn't like Linkin Park, since all their songs sound the same, but I can't help it - they rock! "