[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[sui generis]

^^ I agree. I would have done it out of caring for the person and the relationship, and a reward isn't necessary. Though cooking a good meal is always appreciated.

 

[Tamske]

Hey, I know a reward is not necessary But still I want to thank him, you know, because he really helped me there.

 

[EJCC]

OMG THE THREAD IS ALMOST ON PAGE 2.

Must...
Rescue it!!!

So, any more questions?

 

[Redbone]

Is an ESTJ under some serious stress when they tell you, "I've got a lot going on in my head."? My sister is an ENTJ and she says it is better for her NOT to keep rolling thoughts in her head (as an INTP, I can't even imagine this!).
This is a bad sign with an extroverted thinker, isn't it? Is it a sign of being stuck?

 

[EJCC]

Is an ESTJ under some serious stress when they tell you, "I've got a lot going on in my head."? My sister is an ENTJ and she says it is better for her NOT to keep rolling thoughts in her head (as an INTP, I can't even imagine this!).
This is a bad sign with an extroverted thinker, isn't it? Is it a sign of being stuck?

I dunno about other ESTJs, but for me, "having a lot going on in my head" = "doing a lot of soul-searching" = "feeling conflicted" = "needing to solve problems that are impossible to ask people for help on" = "dealing with a bothersome amount of uncertainty". So yeah - a lot of stress. And not just a lot of stress, but a lot of stress that's very personal, sensitive and vulnerable. In fact, it might be a sign of an INFP shadow moment. (Maybe - not totally sure how the shadow stuff works.)

 

[Redbone]

EJCC!!! Thank you so very much...that was awesome. I think you captured exactly what is going on with someone very dear to me. After your explanation, I understand why he doesn't want to talk. I think the best I can do for him is give him some privacy, yes?

 

[EJCC]

OMG the enthusiasm That makes me so happy that I helped

As for leaving him alone... Generally, yeah But not entirely. Maybe doing the standard things that people do to cheer people up - e.g. inviting them places, or watching a movie with them? Either way, not letting them be alone for too long. As much as that type of issue requires alone time to think, it's also really sad being a lonely ESTJ; regardless of what kind of mood we're in, I don't think we were meant to be alone for long periods of time, left alone with our darkest thoughts. (I know this from experience.) Sympathy and distraction are generally good for me, in those situations.

 

[Tamske]

@ Redbone: I think it has more to do with them being J than with being E. I start to feel bad whenever there are less than +/-20 thoughts in my head. The worst I feel is if the number of thoughts is reduced to only one, repeating all over again, spelling doom and failure. Js - and I guess especially the SJs - like to think one thought after another, not all at the same time.

 

[EJCC]

@ Redbone: I think it has more to do with them being J than with being E. I start to feel bad whenever there are less than +/-20 thoughts in my head. The worst I feel is if the number of thoughts is reduced to only one, repeating all over again, spelling doom and failure. Js - and I guess especially the SJs - like to think one thought after another, not all at the same time.

OMG, absolutely. Absolutely. Did I mention... ABSOLUTELY. Just like you said - because we think about things in terms of what needs to get done, and putting those things in a priority list, if things are (seemingly) insurmountable and/or impossible to prioritize, that causes some serious stress. Although one thought repeating over and over is pretty bad too. It's just a different type of stress. An unscientific way that I might distinguish them (and I'm almost positive that this is just me): One bad thought repeating over and over makes me want to yell at someone/thing, and too many bad thoughts at once make me want to hide in a corner and cry.

Also, although you're right that it's more J than E, the E doesn't help much... lol.

 

[Domino]

How may non-ESTJs rock a jaunty cap?

 

[EJCC]

How may non-ESTJs rock a jaunty cap?

1/5 = 20%

As for ESTJs:

5/5 = 100%

 

[INTPness]

I got into it big time today with an ESTJ I know. I really ripped into him pretty good and now I feel kind of bad. The good part was that I said exactly what was on my mind. The bad part was - I said exactly what was on my mind. Does this kind of stuff ever make ESTJ's feel bad somewhere deep down below that tough exterior? Or are they likely to just brush it off and keep going like nothing ever happened? This isn't what I said, but someone else I know told the ESTJ recently, "Have you ever actually stopped and thought to yourself, 'No wonder nobody likes me - it's because I'm such a prick all the time'?" My conversation with him was kind of along these lines and I do feel bad because I do have a heart, but the way he was acting it was the only way I knew how to respond to him. Fight fire with fire. But, he's not like laying in bed feeling sad that nobody likes him, right? Something like that has to hurt just about anyone's feelings, but you ESTJ's just seem like nothing gets to you. After I said it to him, I couldn't stop thinking about it all day. It really bugged me. But, later in the day, he seemed just fine. But, the wife of another ESTJ told me once that once in a while certain things do get to him, but he just will never let you see it. Do apologies help or is better to just let it go and act like everything is cool? Thoughts?

 

[EJCC]

I got into it big time today with an ESTJ I know. I really ripped into him pretty good and now I feel kind of bad. The good part was that I said exactly what was on my mind. The bad part was - I said exactly what was on my mind. Does this kind of stuff ever make ESTJ's feel bad somewhere deep down below that tough exterior? Or are they likely to just brush it off and keep going like nothing ever happened?

This is the sort of thing that, for ESTJs, is so deep that I'm not sure if I can assume things about it for other ESTJs. But for me - even when I was much less mature and almost completely non-introspective - it definitely can make me feel bad.

This isn't what I said, but someone else I know told the ESTJ recently, "Have you ever actually stopped and thought to yourself, 'No wonder nobody likes me - it's because I'm such a prick all the time'?" My conversation with him was kind of along these lines and I do feel bad because I do have a heart, but the way he was acting it was the only way I knew how to respond to him. Fight fire with fire. But, he's not like laying in bed feeling sad that nobody likes him, right?

Jesus. Well I dunno about him, but if I were in his position, I would definitely lie in bed feeling like no one likes me. But I think ESTJs can differ a lot in this regard. After all, if you don't care about being liked, it wouldn't be a problem, right? But as for me, I want to be liked. Actually, scratch that - I don't want to be disliked. Apathy = fine. But I sometimes get insecure about the possibility of people thinking I'm a jerk, because I'm not that good at reading people, and that makes me paranoid about it.

Anyways, if it were me, and I had been in a fight with you, this would be my thought process:
Initially = "OMG did he just say that???!? What a douchebag. He WOULD say some shit like that."
10 minutes later = "God I hate that guy. Hate hate hate. I can't believe he said that to me."
2 hrs later = "Shit, what if he's right? What if everyone does hate me? I mean, I'm not the nicest person in the world, I guess. So that would mean (insert nice person here) has been faking his/her opinion of me this whole time? Oh no."
1 hr later = "He was right. I hate my life. "

I realize that this inner dialogue is not terribly reassuring, but I also realize that I probably want to be liked much more than most ESTJs do. After all, you mentioned that he seemed fine later in the day. Was he as friendly to you as he had been before? If so, you don't have as much to worry about (though you'll still want to apologize). If not - i.e. if he was acting totally normal to everyone, but ignoring you - then he probably wasn't as fine as he looked.

Something like that has to hurt just about anyone's feelings, but you ESTJ's just seem like nothing gets to you. After I said it to him, I couldn't stop thinking about it all day. It really bugged me. But, later in the day, he seemed just fine. But, the wife of another ESTJ told me once that once in a while certain things do get to him, but he just will never let you see it.

@bolded = This is a common misconception; I'm glad you brought it up. It actually relates really well to my answer to Redbone's question on the previous page. When we have to deal with really stressful things that we know wouldn't be made any better if we talked about them (e.g. a self-esteem problem), we will not show that to anyone. But it's still there.

Do apologies help or is better to just let it go and act like everything is cool? Thoughts?

Apologizing is a very good idea - ESTJs love closure in situations like this - but it needs to be within certain conditions. I have an INTP dad and sometimes he'll get mad at me for a thing and then he'll apologize for making me feel bad, but it really frustrates me because I can tell that he isn't backing away from his original point - i.e. the original thing he said that hurt my feelings. He's apologizing for the symptom and not the problem. So... unless you actually don't think he's a total jerk, I wouldn't give a reason for apologizing. But in your apology, you should definitely acknowledge that you feel bad about it. When I resent people for doing me wrong, it makes me feel better when I hear that they regret what they did.

 

[Redbone]

OMG, absolutely. Absolutely. Did I mention... ABSOLUTELY. Just like you said - because we think about things in terms of what needs to get done, and putting those things in a priority list, if things are (seemingly) insurmountable and/or impossible to prioritize, that causes some serious stress. Although one thought repeating over and over is pretty bad too. It's just a different type of stress. An unscientific way that I might distinguish them (and I'm almost positive that this is just me): One bad thought repeating over and over makes me want to yell at someone/thing, and too many bad thoughts at once make me want to hide in a corner and cry.

Also, although you're right that it's more J than E, the E doesn't help much... lol.

I noted this with extroverted thinkers. Thoughts turned outward are deeds--"VERB--that's what's happening!" When you can't 'verb', it's not good.

I can't be of much help to the ESTJ I know...I don't live close by. I send messages periodically but I seldom get a reply.

Next question: Emotional connection can be a problem. If someone complained about it in a relationship, how do you go about fixing it?

 

[EJCC]

Next question: Emotional connection can be a problem. If someone complained about it in a relationship, how do you go about fixing it?

You mean - complained about the lack of an emotional connection?

If that's what you mean, then my answer is that I'd realize that I only had 2 choices: adapt, or break it off. No more stalling. So, I guess I'd attempt to "fix" the problem of lack of emotional connection by trying to open up to them more. Not in a forced way, but whenever it seemed "right" - or maybe as a response to the partner, when (s)he opened up or needed advice or something. And if the reactions to my opening up were consistently bad, or if the complaining continued (with the partner not recognizing the ESTJ emotional outreach when it occurred), then there would need to be a "talk"; I'd tell them that I'm trying, and the ways that I've been trying, and I'd ask them what I could do better. And if none of this worked, then maybe the relationship wasn't meant to be...?

 

[Redbone]

ESTJs, would you tell a lie to spare someone's feelings? Or say something because it sounded like the right thing to say versus it being the truth? Or will truth reign supreme? Need an example?

"I miss talking to you." Said because it sounded like the proper thing to say or because it's really true.

TIA

 

[Tamske]

IS it the proper thing to say? Is it something people usually say to each other? Is it in your region an expression like the English "how do you do" without actual interest in about how the other is doing?
If it is not a hard-and-fast rule, it's most probably true. Let me give you a function dialogue:

(Someone greets the ESTJ)
Si: It's Aquaintance.
Te: Need to be polite. Si?
Si provides couple of stock phrases.

Versus:
(Someone greets the ESTJ)
Si: It's Friend.
Te: Need to be polite...
Fi: Hey! I really missed him!
Te: Tell him.
(Fe: I really hope that didn't sound as a stock phrase...)

 

[EJCC]

ESTJs, would you tell a lie to spare someone's feelings? Or say something because it sounded like the right thing to say versus it being the truth? Or will truth reign supreme? Need an example?

"I miss talking to you." Said because it sounded like the proper thing to say or because it's really true.

TIA

I think it's hard to tell with the example - because it really depends on the context, and how (i.e. with what vocal tone) the ESTJ said it. But to answer the broader question, I definitely lie on occasion for that purpose, because I really don't want to be hated. And I have the definite impression that if I said everything I wanted to say, whenever I wanted to say it, I would get a bad reputation and people would be turned off by me and my life would suck. (And yeah, I know that's the case for everyone - but when you're a Te-dom, and what you want most in the world is to yell at someone "JUST SHUT UP AND GET THE JOB DONE ALREADY", but that's not socially acceptable... )

(Someone greets the ESTJ)
Si: It's Aquaintance.
Te: Need to be polite. Si?
Si provides couple of stock phrases.

Soooooooooooo true. And most of the time it's instinctive. I'll go through this whole friendly conversation with someone, and they'll leave, and I'll realize that I don't even remotely care about that person - not even to the point where I'd feel anything if something bad happened to them. Just "Oh, that's a shame. They seemed nice."

But that's very astute! I hadn't even made the connection with Si. I had thought it was well-faked Fe, but Si makes a lot more sense.

Versus:
(Someone greets the ESTJ)
Si: It's Friend.
Te: Need to be polite...
Fi: Hey! I really missed him!
Te: Tell him.
(Fe: I really hope that didn't sound as a stock phrase...)

Almost entirely true. The main difference is that I don't generally worry about people taking my statements as faked. What I do worry about is whether emotionally true statements such as "I miss talking to you" will get taken seriously enough that the emotion behind it becomes the forefront of the conversation topic and/or mood. That's what my poorly developed Fe gets paranoid about...

 

[Redbone]

Thanks...I think it was definitely the last paragraph.

I worry about that myself...if someone took what I said seriously. If I said it with enough emphasis, emotion, or whatever. Or if I overdid it. Not good at judging that kind of thing at all.

Okay...no more questions! I keep forgetting that with ESTJs, what you see is what you get for the most part. I was just saying on another thread that people can get exasperated with me for looking for the meaning behind the meaning.

 

[EJCC]

Thanks...I think it was definitely the last paragraph.

I worry about that myself...if someone took what I said seriously. If I said it with enough emphasis, emotion, or whatever. Or if I overdid it. Not good at judging that kind of thing at all.

I'm glad I have the ability to shut off that kind of thought process - i.e. "Did they take that the way I meant it? Oh no, what if I did something wrong and they're just being nice by not saying anything about it??" It only shows up from time to time, and the rest of the time I just say things without thinking terribly hard about the consequences Ah, extroversion...

Okay...no more questions! I keep forgetting that with ESTJs, what you see is what you get for the most part. I was just saying on another thread that people can get exasperated with me for looking for the meaning behind the meaning.

Hey, your question was perfectly valid. After all, Tamske's thought process example, i.e. of "stock phrases", is totally accurate sometimes. We still hold things in for the sake of not making things awkward/difficult and not making people angry/upset with us. (Also, I just love posting on this thread Bring on the questions!)