[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[sui generis]

I, quite frankly, could not empathize even remotely with people who disagreed with me. But I grew into my own as time went on, stopped being interested in anime and became interested in current events and history, and became a nice, smart kid (hopefully?) instead of a moody, geeky bitch.

I identify with what you said here, but high school was a culture shock for a different reason for me. I went to a small, private high school after attending a small, private K-8 school, so there wasn't huge difference in that department. It was a culture shock b/c I was placed into honors classes, so I actually had to *work* for my grades for the first time in my life. I was a joiner as well-- student council, campus ministry, drama club, Latin club, science club, theatre!

Could you be a little more specific? Kind of a broad question...
But I'm not a partier.

I was trying to keep that question as open-ended as possible to see how you'd interpret it. I think I meant something similar to "what were you like in high school?", but you said you were basically the same. I was most curious as to whether you were a partier, because I definitely wasn't/am not. I don't dislike alcohol, but I rarely drink (every couple of months or so) and it's rarer that I really get *drunk* (a couple of times a year). I don't understand the appeal of drinking til you puke every weekend. I like being in control of myself too much.

My social events are usually of the sort where you can hear yourself (and other people) talk, without having to yell. I just chatting, you know? I don't want to give it up for the sake of alcohol...

THIS IS HUGE FOR ME. I would rather stay up all night having a great conversation than spend the evening at a bar geting smashed. In fact, I dont like bars, because I hate small talk and because I hate being around drunk people.
One of my former coworkers has made me believe that I'm weird (in a bad way) because of this. He said that most people talk about their weekends in terms of where they went and what they did, whereas I talk about who I saw and the conversations I had. I love my chatty tendencies and my love of deep conversations, but that conversation with him left me feeling like I'm doing it wrong.

Surveys are the bestest things ever.

Right? I was thinking about this because I just started doing a 30-day meme on livejournal, and I was all like ZOMG A WHOLE MONTH OF SURVEY!

But some of them I just don't get - e.g. "pedobear" and "advice dog".

I like Advice Dog and his ilk, but I don't get pedobear, really.

If it's a funny story that I'm telling, and if most people are responding the right way, then I absolutely LOVE being the center of attention.

That, my friend, is SO MUCH more fun than alcohol!

Also, I get the feeling that I'm a good enough actor that, if I wrote out an internal script for myself (since I can't improvise worth crap), I could tell very convincing lies about very serious things. But I would feel so guilty about it afterwards, if I did. So I haven't, I don't, and I probably won't.

Interesting! This is a way in which we are different. I am not a good actor, like, at all. I was in a couple of plays in high school, but I sucked at it and started doing stagecraft and being a techie instead. I just find it hard to be anything other than myself!

History, adventure, sci-fi, humor, true crime, biographies... As long as the book isn't boring, obtuse, or pretentious, I'm okay with it, for the most part.

I was just curious. I have SO little patience for nonfiction and sci-fi, but we are still similar. Some of my favorites are biographies told in a funny way. Have you read "Kick Me"? That kind of thing.

 

[EJCC]

It was a culture shock b/c I was placed into honors classes, so I actually had to *work* for my grades for the first time in my life.

Dude, you have no idea how much I relate to that. That happened to me after taking AP classes - I was like "Wait... I can't get straight A's without breaking a sweat anymore?? WTF?" And I even relate now, because the college I'm transferring to is much, much more prestigious and competitive than the one I was just at, so I had a moment a couple of days ago (i.e. a week before my departure date) when I just stopped in my tracks and thought "OH SH*T, WHAT IF IT'S HARD???!? :horor: "

I think I meant something similar to "what were you like in high school?", but you said you were basically the same.

Yeah, kind of silly of me to not get that question when it was almost identical to the two before it. I'm just better at describing how I was, than how I am.

I don't understand the appeal of drinking til you puke every weekend. I like being in control of myself too much.
...
THIS IS HUGE FOR ME. I would rather stay up all night having a great conversation than spend the evening at a bar geting smashed. In fact, I dont like bars, because I hate small talk and because I hate being around drunk people.

I entirely agree. A drink or so = sure. Totally piss drunk = no way. And I don't really get the appeal of drunk people. It kind of makes me sad to laugh at them... partially because of the degree of DO NOT WANT I feel for the idea of being in their position. (Lol, I'm eloquent today!)

One of my former coworkers has made me believe that I'm weird (in a bad way) because of this. He said that most people talk about their weekends in terms of where they went and what they did, whereas I talk about who I saw and the conversations I had. I love my chatty tendencies and my love of deep conversations, but that conversation with him left me feeling like I'm doing it wrong.

I relate to this! No one has given me that vibe about it, though. But seriously - I'd rather talk about something amazing and funny and awesome that was just a passing moment in my weekend, than summarize the whole weekend in a thorough (but srsly boring) way. That's part of the reason why I'm really bad at writing in my diary with the other reason being that, when it's the end of a long and intense day, I'd rather go to sleep and put it out of my mind, than relive it by writing it all out again.

I like Advice Dog and his ilk, but I don't get pedobear, really.

Yeah. The only Advice Dog variant that I like is Courage Wolf mostly because it's just so over-the-top and ridiculous. How can you not be entertained (at the very least) by this advice:

Interesting! This is a way in which we are different. I am not a good actor, like, at all. I was in a couple of plays in high school, but I sucked at it and started doing stagecraft and being a techie instead. I just find it hard to be anything other than myself!

That is interesting. Especially since the other ESTJ I know is a total drama geek, and doesn't have the issue with acting that I do. Probably because he doesn't do method acting...

I was just curious. I have SO little patience for nonfiction and sci-fi, but we are still similar. Some of my favorites are biographies told in a funny way. Have you read "Kick Me"? That kind of thing.

I love that sort of thing! It sounds really funny, but I haven't read it - it'll go on my list. But yeah, interesting memoirs are great. One of my favorites is "Iron and Silk" by Mark Salzman:
Amazon.com: Iron and Silk (9780394755113): Mark Salzman: Books
It's about an American teaching English in China, and (re)learning Kung Fu from an actual master. It's great stuff!

 

[sui generis]

Dude, you have no idea how much I relate to that. That happened to me after taking AP classes - I was like "Wait... I can't get straight A's without breaking a sweat anymore?? WTF?" And I even relate now, because the college I'm transferring to is much, much more prestigious and competitive than the one I was just at, so I had a moment a couple of days ago (i.e. a week before my departure date) when I just stopped in my tracks and thought "OH SH*T, WHAT IF IT'S HARD???!? :horor: "

They wouldn't have let you in if they didn't think you could do well there.

Yeah, kind of silly of me to not get that question when it was almost identical to the two before it. I'm just better at describing how I was, than how I am.

I agree! There was a question on some post here about how did people see you in high school, and how do they see you now, and it was easy to imagine how people see me in high school, and how I actually *was*, than how I am now.

And I don't really get the appeal of drunk people. It kind of makes me sad to laugh at them... partially because of the degree of DO NOT WANT I feel for the idea of being in their position. (Lol, I'm eloquent today!)

I agree, completely and totally. I have no desire to babysit them, and I don't get the appeal of falling all over yourself! I don't think it's fun enough to do more than a couple of times a year.

That's part of the reason why I'm really bad at writing in my diary with the other reason being that, when it's the end of a long and intense day, I'd rather go to sleep and put it out of my mind, than relive it by writing it all out again.

Interesting! We are different here. I used to keep a journal *religiously*, every night from 8th grade until a couple of years ago. I find that it helps me to write about the day, to process it, in order to make more sense of the day, when I can't talk to other people about it, or when I'm not ready to. I would like to get back in to the habit of doing so, but my attempts have failed miserably.


EDIT to add:

The wolf was funny!
But how can you not like Hipster Kitty!

EDIT again-
That book sounds awesome! I'm adding it to my wishlist on BookMooch!

 

[Redbone]

Why in the world would an ESTJ cheat?
Just seems so anti-ESTJ...
Still maintaining familial/financial and social duties but has checked out emotionally...could that do it?

 

[EJCC]

Why in the world would an ESTJ cheat?
Just seems so anti-ESTJ...
Still maintaining familial/financial and social duties but has checked out emotionally...could that do it?

Uh-oh... I hope that isn't related to your ESTJ...

I think it would be a certain type of cheating... you know, the really hedonistic type. But not the type that comes from not being in love with your spouse (because I think that, if an ESTJ discovered that they weren't in love with their spouse, they'd deal with that problem directly instead of indirectly). I don't think ESTJs are as likely to associate feelings with sex, so it would be kind of a thought process like "I want passionate sex. I'm not getting it from my spouse. So I'll find someone else to give it to me. What's the harm?" Which, you know, is totally selfish and inconsiderate and ignorant. But I can still relate a little to the thought process. If I were selfish and hedonistic, I would think like that.

 

[sui generis]

Why in the world would an ESTJ cheat?
Just seems so anti-ESTJ...
Still maintaining familial/financial and social duties but has checked out emotionally...could that do it?

I can't relate to cheating. I'm too honest and the guilt would eat me up. This is why I'm polyamorous; I'm up-front with everyone about my sluttiness.

I think that if I, as an ESTJ, were to cheat, it would be a situation where I was swept up in the moment and had turned my brain off and was, instead, completely ruled by hormones.

Yeah, seems totally out of character.

 

[Tamske]

Cheat? Why would an ESTJ do that? To deviate from the Holy Routine?? Naaah.

Either our ESTJ is a regular cheater, or he/she isn't one.

 

[EJCC]

I think that if I, as an ESTJ, were to cheat, it would be a situation where I was swept up in the moment and had turned my brain off and was, instead, completely ruled by hormones.

Either our ESTJ is a regular cheater, or he/she isn't one.

Yes. +1 to you both!

 

[Tamske]

The little banter in the MBTI comic thread prompts me to ask something about that Ne of yours.

Does it come in short, strong bouts? Like, normally you're the good and predictable ESTJ and suddenly the stops fly off and out comes a little flood of randomness?
Does it only occur when you're at ease and don't have to keep up your reliable-ESTJ image, or do you get it at inconvenient times too?
Moreover, is your Ne specialized in some areas? I can out-Ne my husband in most areas, leaving him totally bewildered, but he's the champion in improvising new lyrics to a known song.

 

[sui generis]

I think EJCC is a better question-answerer than I am, but I'll just share some thoughts. Also, I'm not versed in what the functions do (all of the Ne Ni Fe Fi Fo Fum stuff sounds too complicated for me ) but I know the mode you guys were talking about

There are times that I get all ZOMG STORYTELLER MODE like in that thread when I'd really much rather be all Srs ESTJ Mode. It's inconvenient, like a case of the giggles, but I think it happens less often the older I get.

I would say that I'm more likely to get into that mode when it's something I have some sort of expertise about or passion for, or a personal story of mine.

Unrelatedly, I am also a champion at making up new lyrics to known songs.

 

[EJCC]

The little banter in the MBTI comic thread prompts me to ask something about that Ne of yours.

Does it come in short, strong bouts? Like, normally you're the good and predictable ESTJ and suddenly the stops fly off and out comes a little flood of randomness?

Pretty much! I'd say my default mood that I'm in over 60% of the time is "Stoic/Friendly", but when I get to "Excited", "Hyperactive" or "Slightly intoxicated", then, as you said, the stops fly off and OUT COMES NE Although I'd say that a slightly less crazy version of Ne will also show up when I'm trying to make friends with someone who isn't talkative. Often I'm the one shaking my head at other people's crazy antics, but when I'm with my ISTJ cousin, it's the other way around, because I'm trying to be charming

Does it only occur when you're at ease and don't have to keep up your reliable-ESTJ image, or do you get it at inconvenient times too?

I think it's only when I'm relaxed. Sometimes I'll really, really want my Ne to show up, but it won't because I'm feeling tense or uncertain. I have to be relaxed and comfortable with someone (i.e. at friendly acquaintance level) in order to go Ne on them. With a notable exception being when I'm hyperactive, which is almost always when I'm in a large group and, like mnestic was saying, going into storytelling mode. I wonder what new people think of me when they're introduced to me and I'm like that...

Moreover, is your Ne specialized in some areas? I can out-Ne my husband in most areas, leaving him totally bewildered, but he's the champion in improvising new lyrics to a known song.

I'm really, really good at finding new uses for old things. You know, looking at some useless thing and going "What can I do with this...?" and then giving it a whole new use. Or just, for no reason except that it's fun, refurbishing a wooden trunk. (That was my summer project - I lined it with maps, just because I thought it would look cool, and that might have been Ne too.)

 

[EJCC]

I think EJCC is a better question-answerer than I am

I don't think so! I think I ponder the questions a lot more than you do, but that sometimes leads to overthinking. I like that we give different opinions sometimes - shows what's type-related and what's not.

It's inconvenient, like a case of the giggles, but I think it happens less often the older I get.

YES. I could get SO hyper when I was younger. Once, a teacher asked if I was drunk. I was not. I was also twelve years old.

Unrelatedly, I am also a champion at making up new lyrics to known songs.

I wish I could do that off the top of my head. I'm better at mishearing lyrics in funny ways. Some of my recent favorites...

From "Monster" by Skillet:
"Why won't somebody come and save me from this bacon hand?!?"

From "Carry On" by Crosby, Stills and Nash:
"To sing the blues, you've got to look for Jews" or "You've got to look confused"

 

[sui generis]

I don't think so! I think I ponder the questions a lot more than you do, but that sometimes leads to overthinking. I like that we give different opinions sometimes - shows what's type-related and what's not.

That's just how I roll. (Is this what people call Te, or part of it?) I have a tendency to start thinking aloud and come up with an answer as I'm thinking aloud. In "Do What You Are", they referred to this as coming out with "half-baked" ideas and "baking" them out loud. They used this as a hallmark trait of extroverts, but I don't think all extroverts do this.

Anyway, I maintain that you're the better question-answerer because you've come up with answers to some questions I didn't know how to touch.

 

[EJCC]

OMG IT'S ALMOST ON PAGE 2!!! :horor:

I can't let that happen.

So... any more questions?

 

[strychnine]

I don't know where to post this, and you seem lonely, so here goes lol:

Do you end up in a lot of one-way friendships? (Either direction)

And do you feel like you know your friends well but they have no idea who you really are? Or maybe the other way around?

 

[EJCC]

I don't know where to post this, and you seem lonely, so here goes lol:

Do you just mean, lonely on this thread? (I hope that's what you mean...)

Do you end up in a lot of one-way friendships? (Either direction)

I don't trust myself enough to know for certain if I like someone a lot more than they like me, but I'm definitely in a pretty hardcore one-way friendship with an awkward/unhealthy ESFP. She's cool, but she's told me that I'm her best friend, and I'm really not at the level with her where I'd even be willing to open up. I made a thread about it, actually:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sp-arthouse/30467-estj-confused-esfp-friend.html

And do you feel like you know your friends well but they have no idea who you really are? Or maybe the other way around?

I don't think there's a whole lot more to me than meets the eye. Besides vulnerability, anyway. And with friends, if I feel like they're hiding a lot from me (in terms of feelings and important opinions), that's kind of a turn-off, because I don't hide that much at all. I value the honesty and openness of all of my friends. I'm not the sort of person who likes to pick the Mystery Kid and try to pry open their psyche to see what's inside. (My ENFJ BFF is like this, though. Big time.)

 

[strychnine]

Why? Do you just mean, lonely on this thread? (I hope that's what you mean...)

Yes this is what I meant. It wasn't meant to be serious. Sorry!

I don't trust myself enough to know for certain if I like someone a lot more than they like me, but I'm definitely in a pretty hardcore one-way friendship with an awkward/unhealthy ESFP. She's cool, but she's told me that I'm her best friend, and I'm really not at the level with her where I'd even be willing to open up. (I made a thread about it, actually - I'll edit this post to add a link.)

I don't think there's a whole lot more to me than meets the eye. Besides vulnerability, anyway. And with friends, if I feel like they're hiding a lot from me (in terms of feelings and important opinions), that's kind of a turn-off, because I don't hide that much at all. I value the honesty and openness of all of my friends. I'm not the sort of person who likes to pick the Mystery Kid and try to pry open their psyche to see what's inside. (My ENFJ BFF is like this, though. Big time.)

Interesting, thanks for answering. I wonder if the bolded part is an E/I thing to some degree. So I guess you can tell if people are intentionally hiding things.

I've had friends say to me, "you know me really well" when I make observations about them or correctly guess the root cause of something they are doing. And I'm always confused, haha, because I don't know people that well, I can just guess. Anyways, thanks for your answer. I'll check out your thread.

 

[sleuthiness]

This may have been asked of you already, but how can I communicate with an upset estj who has pre-determined that s/he is undoubtedly correct in an assertion, despite the fact that s/he hasn't given the accused the light of day to explain relevant facts?

What if they turn to physical means? My mom and her estj husband have a difficult time understanding the humor in life, so when someone (me, in particular) attempts to acknowledge this in their company, both (99.999% of the time) react with hostility. They abuse their power, social status as homeowners/parents, maybe not exactly forcing household members to comply with their every last whim-- as they've learned to hold their natural directive tendencies back a smig, at least toning the volume down-- but I think they fail to recognize their shortcomings, to treat other humans as... uh... humans, rather than expect a constant, imperfect, Si-drugged perfection.

What goes thru your mind when a member of your family doesn't tell you "happy birthday" after they say they will?

What does it mean when your estj threatens to punch you in the face, but intentionally punches the wall just beside your head? Does this mean that he cares for you? Or is he merely concerned with his familial reputation/paying the resulting medical bills?

It seems that estjs pride themselves on being rational, and mine certainly is most of the time, but reasonable he ain't.

 

[EJCC]

This may have been asked of you already, but how can I communicate with an upset estj who has pre-determined that s/he is undoubtedly correct in an assertion, despite the fact that s/he hasn't given the accused the light of day to explain relevant facts?

I may need more information than this in order to give a good answer, but my initial thought is: Tread very carefully. Take two steps back for every step forward (i.e. try and soften the blows by emphasizing that you aren't taking sides, BUT...)

My mom and her estj husband have a difficult time understanding the humor in life, so when someone (me, in particular) attempts to acknowledge this in their company, both (99.999% of the time) react with hostility. They abuse their power, social status as homeowners/parents, maybe not exactly forcing household members to comply with their every last whim-- as they've learned to hold their natural directive tendencies back a smig, at least toning the volume down-- but I think they fail to recognize their shortcomings, to treat other humans as... uh... humans, rather than expect a constant, imperfect, Si-drugged perfection.

I may need examples for this, too...

What goes thru your mind when a member of your family doesn't tell you "happy birthday" after they say they will?

It makes me really sad It makes me feel like they don't care about me.

What does it mean when your estj threatens to punch you in the face, but intentionally punches the wall just beside your head? Does this mean that he cares for you? Or is he merely concerned with his familial reputation/paying the resulting medical bills?

Now here's where I wonder whether I should even bother answering the question. Are you using this post to vent? Because this ESTJ obviously needs serious therapy, not simple advice from someone like me whose only psych experiences are two years at TypeC and one semester of Intro to Psych in college. I get the feeling that there's a lot of subtext in your post, but I'm not very good at reading subtext! Please be blunt with me - bluntness is the only language I'm totally fluent in

 

[EJCC]

Interesting, thanks for answering. I wonder if the bolded part is an E/I thing to some degree. So I guess you can tell if people are intentionally hiding things.

I dunno... There's a certain kind of silence that I always read as "There's something that I really want to say, but I can't." And maybe I'm right when I think this - and if I am, it might have something to do with my being an enneagram 1 ("my repression sense is tingling!!!") - but I could easily not be.

I've had friends say to me, "you know me really well" when I make observations about them or correctly guess the root cause of something they are doing. And I'm always confused, haha, because I don't know people that well, I can just guess. Anyways, thanks for your answer. I'll check out your thread.

Well, "knowing someone well" could just mean that you've been around them long enough to know what they like, or think is funny, which is different from knowing them entirely, though one could argue that what people like is a part of who they are.

And no problem! You were right about being "lonely" - it would be sad if no one asked me questions here anymore... I like feeling useful, you know?