[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

ESTJs, do you just show your Ne to those that you are really comfortable with? You know, the silly, goofy teasing stuff.

Eh, to an extent. My teasing is harsher with close friends because I know that they won't be offended by it. Showing my Ne isn't like opening up, so it isn't something that requires a person's trust. I'll show it to whoever I want, because it's fun to use. (On the other hand, I guard my Fi with my life and only show it when I know for CERTAIN that it won't be injured. That tendency is why I was never on the debate team in high school....)

I'd say that there's a particular type of Ne that is probably the first thing that people see when they meet me -- especially if they're shy. My Ne goes HAYWIRE when I'm talking to very quiet people.

Also, even though there are times when I am serious, my ESTJ will go into this teasing and playfully poking mode. Even when I get upset, he'll just say something like, "Aw, you mad? Come here and let me give you a hug. That's what you wanted anyway...you should've just asked me. I can't tell you no." Sometimes I have to smile but sometimes it is irritating as hell (and yes--he knows that it will totally irritate me at times). Why does he do this?

I think some of that is him trying to defuse a tense situation. He knows that being like that will make things better, so he acts that way. Seems like Te filling in for Fe.

Is he by any chance intoxicated? Or a closet ENFP?

Getting ESTJs drunk is a GREAT way to make them seem like ENFPs. Or at least, ENFPs with a lot of loud and obnoxious Te.

ESTJs -- do you ever find that people get angry/offended if you assert yourself, no matter how diplomatically you do it?

People in general, not just those close to you. It's pissing me off.

I'm not sure. My first instinct is to say that I don't think so. But I definitely think that people I don't know well are more likely to be offended by my asserting myself, than people I do know well. If people know me well, they know that I am a very honest person, and they get used to it.

 

[Ginkgo]

Hm. As an individual, what do you enjoy about knitting?

 

[EJCC]

Hm. As an individual, what do you enjoy about knitting?

Where to begin?

- I love the feeling of wearing a piece of clothing and knowing that I made it from scratch, with my own hands
- It has all the DIY philosophy appeal of any other handcraft (and I LOVE handcrafts!), but it doesn't require the money and space that, say, woodworking, would require (meaning it's perfect for a college student on a college budget in college housing)
- It's a great creative outlet!
- It can save a lot of money, if you buy right; you can make $5 scarves that you would have paid $100 for at a nice boutique
- If you're good enough, you can see a cool article of clothing on TV or in a magazine, go "I want one of those!", and make it yourself
- I have a natural talent for knitting, and I love knowing that there's something that I have a natural talent for; I love being able to look at what I'm knitting and know instinctively whether I've made a mistake, where the mistake is, and how to fix it.
- It's a great conversation starter

 

[Seymour]

EJCC, it seems like you are more introspective than many ESTJs... what do you ascribe that to (if anything)?

Also, you give off a more caring, almost Fe-like vibe (at least based on the guesses for your altnerna-type on other threads). Do you think that's socialization? My xNFP mom claims that women are socialized to be FJ-like, and she was drilled on the social rules as a kid. Granted, she grew up in Texas and is a few generations older than you, but I'm curious about your perspective on that.

Feel free to point to previous posts if you've already addressed these questions.

 

[Fidelia]

EJCC's mum was an INFJ, as are many of her friends, but I think that she's also made it a priority to take a look at things too, which I would ascribe as an individual thing. Maybe also it's influenced by being an e1.

 

[EJCC]

EJCC, it seems like you are more introspective than many ESTJs... what do you ascribe that to (if anything)?

Before I go on, I'll say that I think most of it has to do with emotional maturity. It seems to me that without some sort of intervention -- be it from parents, friends, an event -- ESTJs, like xNTPs, are prone towards not really being aware of how they come across, and being surprised when people are offended by them. There has to be a moment, with them, when they realize why they come across that way, and what they need to do to fix it.

Because a lot of ESTJs are type 8, and 8s don't care nearly as much what other people think of them, I think Fidelia's right that a lot of that has to do with being an enneagram 1. I'm at my happiest when I realize why things are the way they are (type 7), and I'm at my most miserable when I know something's wrong with me and I don't know how to fix it so I just sit and wallow in my angst (type 4), so it makes perfect sense that I'd be interested in figuring out why I am the way I am, so that I can improve my behavior as I see fit.

This isn't all due to my discovery of personality psychology -- I think I started to be introspective in my freshman year of high school, after a friend (not a boyfriend) dumped me after telling me that I had never been a good friend to her. That was such a blow to me that I found myself introspecting to a degree that I never had, just to figure out what I had been doing wrong all those years. And one of the things I was doing wrong was not knowing how to deal with her when she was upset. So that, plus maturity, plus having an INFJ mom to ask for advice, led me to learn to imitate Fe -- not to actually use it, but to always remember some Fe-style tactics to use whenever necessary. It also helps that, in the past few years, I befriended a psych major and future therapist who loves to talk about therapy techniques to the point that I know a few now -- e.g. "It sounds like you've been feeling..." as a method of validation.

Also, you give off a more caring, almost Fe-like vibe (at least based on the guesses for your altnerna-type on other threads). Do you think that's socialization? My xNFP mom claims that women are socialized to be FJ-like, and she was drilled on the social rules as a kid. Granted, she grew up in Texas and is a few generations older than you, but I'm curious about your perspective on that.

Surprisingly, I don't think socialization had a lot to do with it, for me. My parents made a point of raising me in a fairly gender-neutral way; not pressuring me to do feminine things. I was friends with as many boys as girls. For a while, I think I communicated better with guys. (I still do, but I get the feeling that young men tend to be intimidated when girls communicate on their level; boys love it, but young men, being insecure people, are threatened by it.) But if it is socialization, I think it's socialization relating to just how many NFs I'm friends with. NFs have different needs, sympathy-wise, and I've had to train myself to act accordingly, for fear of becoming the thoughtless jerk I was when I was a kid. (That'd be the 2 wing. )

I'm rambling, and I could keep rambling, but I think you get the idea.

 

[Redbone]

Eh, to an extent. My teasing is harsher with close friends because I know that they won't be offended by it. Showing my Ne isn't like opening up, so it isn't something that requires a person's trust. I'll show it to whoever I want, because it's fun to use. (On the other hand, I guard my Fi with my life and only show it when I know for CERTAIN that it won't be injured. That tendency is why I was never on the debate team in high school....)

Can understand about the Fi. He's shown it from time to time and wow... I can understand why you would be guarded about it. I think the worst times have been when he cannot understand why something isn't working and he's constantly in this loop of "what am I doing wrong?" and is slowly but surely coming unglued by it. Those were the times when I just let him vent. Of course now that things are better, he has re-written history: "It wasn't that bad." I didn't comment on that except to say that I'm glad he reached smooth waters.

I think some of that is him trying to defuse a tense situation. He knows that being like that will make things better, so he acts that way. Seems like Te filling in for Fe.

This is interesting and it fits. He's not quite sure what to do but he has to do something. It's like he's running this dialogue in his head: "Sympathizing? Is that actually 'helping'? Nah. Make her laugh? I'll do that, it's better than nothing. And I know sometimes it helps her to feel better." Even so, I try to keep things like that with him low-key because I know he can feel very helpless and angry when he cannot fix something for someone he cares about.

He is one of the few people I will go to when I am stuck in a Ti/Si loop. I have found that dominant and auxiliary extroverted thinkers are really excellent for kick-starting my Ne again and getting me out of that damn loop. I will tell them what is on my mind and they can immediately tell me where the entry point is to get things going again. You guys are great!

Holy smoly--post 1000!!!!

 

[Ginkgo]

Where to begin?

- I love the feeling of wearing a piece of clothing and knowing that I made it from scratch, with my own hands
- It has all the DIY philosophy appeal of any other handcraft (and I LOVE handcrafts!), but it doesn't require the money and space that, say, woodworking, would require (meaning it's perfect for a college student on a college budget in college housing)
- It's a great creative outlet!
- It can save a lot of money, if you buy right; you can make $5 scarves that you would have paid $100 for at a nice boutique
- If you're good enough, you can see a cool article of clothing on TV or in a magazine, go "I want one of those!", and make it yourself
- I have a natural talent for knitting, and I love knowing that there's something that I have a natural talent for; I love being able to look at what I'm knitting and know instinctively whether I've made a mistake, where the mistake is, and how to fix it.
- It's a great conversation starter

Lol. I thought you might like this=

 

[EJCC]

Lol. I thought you might like this=

Awesome. Reminds me of this cross stitch:

 

[EJCC]

Can understand about the Fi. He's shown it from time to time and wow... I can understand why you would be guarded about it.

Could you elaborate on this? If there's yet another good reason for me to keep my Fi from people, I would love to know. It's always good to hear how I come across.

I think the worst times have been when he cannot understand why something isn't working and he's constantly in this loop of "what am I doing wrong?" and is slowly but surely coming unglued by it. Those were the times when I just let him vent. Of course now that things are better, he has re-written history: "It wasn't that bad." I didn't comment on that except to say that I'm glad he reached smooth waters.

Right! I remember when we were talking about that before. I'm glad he's come out of it, too. I can relate to both of you, in that situation, so I'm especially glad it's over!

This is interesting and it fits. He's not quite sure what to do but he has to do something. It's like he's running this dialogue in his head: "Sympathizing? Is that actually 'helping'? Nah. Make her laugh? I'll do that, it's better than nothing. And I know sometimes it helps her to feel better." Even so, I try to keep things like that with him low-key because I know he can feel very helpless and angry when he cannot fix something for someone he cares about.

You are exactly right on what the thought process is. And the bolded really rings true for me.

He is one of the few people I will go to when I am stuck in a Ti/Si loop. I have found that dominant and auxiliary extroverted thinkers are really excellent for kick-starting my Ne again and getting me out of that damn loop. I will tell them what is on my mind and they can immediately tell me where the entry point is to get things going again. You guys are great!

Thanks, Redbone!

Holy smoly--post 1000!!!!

YEAH!! Congrats!

 

[Redbone]

Could you elaborate on this? If there's yet another good reason for me to keep my Fi from people, I would love to know. It's always good to hear how I come across.

Sure. This just comes from my observation of him.

He is not given to talking about how he feels. Instead he has incorporated social attitudes of what works to keep things moving. Kind of like what you described in having a script of Fe-responses for certain settings? He does that. At best, stating his innermost feelings is irrelevant to him. They only matter to him so why share them? He doesn't see the point in doing so. At worst, verbalizing his feelings, is a scary thing for him. His voice changes and he is well, for lack of a better word, naked. I've learned to handle these moments with some delicacy because I know I am one the only person that he has revealed some highly personal and intense emotions to.


I hope this made sense. I don't think it's a matter of not revealing your Fi, it's just finding the right people to do it with. There is a parallel with Ti, it's hard to put into words, even harder to share with someone else. It's personal in a way that really doesn't yield to a verbal explanation. It makes it really hard to let anyone 'see' that part of me. When I do finally share it, I want it to be valued, listened to, and not belittled even though I'm fully aware that it only has the greatest value and importance to me. That's why I said I can understand about not wanting to share Fi.

 

[Tamske]

If my hubby shows his Fi, he's ashamed afterwards. Doesn't want me to feel uncomfortable. Probably because HE's uncomfortable when someone's crying and goes into a panicking "what can I do to SOLVE THIS?!" mode, he never wants anybody else to experience this.
And this can lead to situations that are funny in a bitter way. Like him saying sorry after he's been crying, worried that it has upset me. But I perfectly knew what was wrong and what I could do to console him. I didn't even think of it as a "problem to be solved", rather as a straightforward - "he's awfully sad, he has to know I love him and understand his sadness" (Fe in action!). His beloved uncle had died. And there he was saying "sorry for acting emotional". I guess he never understood how little I was upset by his behaviour. I wasn't even stressed.
I think I've told this same story before, but to me it illustrates very well how you go about negative feelings. Showing Fi = calling to somebody's Fe = to be avoided, as Fe is HARD! And, showing Fi = showing yourself vulnerable = to be avoided at all costs.

If there's such a problem, it's always about crying. Or other negative stuff. Positive stuff doesn't show vulnerability or call for Fe.

 

[Tamske]

I need some help. Look, I'm going to try one very J thing. I'm going to try "work before play". And because I want to be sure to have some play time left, I'll make a definite, finite list of tasks. Yes, a todo list. For every day. Not to be completed before the day is over, but before I, let's say, start browsing the net. And I'm NOT going to mentally add other things to it until it becomes infinite so I'd better read that fanfic now or else.

Why am I doing this? Because "go to supermarket, go to unemployment office, send two application letters" somehow broadened into "go to supermarket, unemployment office, send applications, write a million words and read the end of that story", of which only the last actually got executed. Okay, I'm exaggerating. I only missed the unemployment office because it was closed by the time I got there. Point is, this shouldn't have happened. I promised, I vowed to myself to start right away, but somehow... well okay. All I can say is I'm sorry. AGAIN.

I want to change that particular behavior. Because I have done these tasks in three hours flat. And I could have written instead, that's the thing I WANT to do, instead of reading fan fiction. Because that's the only way I can live with unemployment, even if the unemployment is involuntary, without feeling useless. Because I want to be a good example for my daughter.

Two questions.
1) Do you have any hints as how to compel myself doing this? After all, I can't keep promises to myself. And developing a J side means to me an SJ side - I don't want to get Pessimistic NiTamske anywhere on top.

2) Can you reassure me that, even if I complete the tasks first, that I will still find some energy to do the projects afterwards? Otherwise it's pointless.

 

[mrcockburn]

Do you guys rely overly much on "auras" to decide whether you want to befriend/do business with someone?

As in, do you make snap judgments and decisions about people just by their vibes (and I don't mean body language, appearance, language, tone, facial expressions or anything definable)......rather than the facts and what they actually say and do?

In my life, the ESTJs I know don't. That's why I love em and there are so many of them in my life (voluntarily). Whereas certain types seem quick to judge me based on subjective "feelings", the ESTJs just merrily bulldoze right through whatever "aura" I radiate and actually find out what I'm all about before passing judgment.

 

[mrcockburn]

I need some help. Look, I'm going to try one very J thing. I'm going to try "work before play". And because I want to be sure to have some play time left, I'll make a definite, finite list of tasks. Yes, a todo list. For every day. Not to be completed before the day is over, but before I, let's say, start browsing the net. And I'm NOT going to mentally add other things to it until it becomes infinite so I'd better read that fanfic now or else.

Why am I doing this? Because "go to supermarket, go to unemployment office, send two application letters" somehow broadened into "go to supermarket, unemployment office, send applications, write a million words and read the end of that story", of which only the last actually got executed. Okay, I'm exaggerating. I only missed the unemployment office because it was closed by the time I got there. Point is, this shouldn't have happened. I promised, I vowed to myself to start right away, but somehow... well okay. All I can say is I'm sorry. AGAIN.

I want to change that particular behavior. Because I have done these tasks in three hours flat. And I could have written instead, that's the thing I WANT to do, instead of reading fan fiction. Because that's the only way I can live with unemployment, even if the unemployment is involuntary, without feeling useless. Because I want to be a good example for my daughter.

Two questions.
1) Do you have any hints as how to compel myself doing this? After all, I can't keep promises to myself. And developing a J side means to me an SJ side - I don't want to get Pessimistic NiTamske anywhere on top.

2) Can you reassure me that, even if I complete the tasks first, that I will still find some energy to do the projects afterwards? Otherwise it's pointless.

I'm not an SJ, but I hear you sista! As a fellow writer myself...oh yeah.

Bear in mind - mundane errands and creative pursuits use two TOTALLY different types of energy - so if you run out of the metaphorical "ketchup" by running around on errands, you'll still have your "mustard" to "season" your hotdog of a to-do list with regardless.

I know that probably makes no sense, not even to an ENTP.

 

[EJCC]

I need some help. Look, I'm going to try one very J thing. I'm going to try "work before play". And because I want to be sure to have some play time left, I'll make a definite, finite list of tasks. Yes, a todo list. For every day. Not to be completed before the day is over, but before I, let's say, start browsing the net. And I'm NOT going to mentally add other things to it until it becomes infinite so I'd better read that fanfic now or else.

Why am I doing this? Because "go to supermarket, go to unemployment office, send two application letters" somehow broadened into "go to supermarket, unemployment office, send applications, write a million words and read the end of that story", of which only the last actually got executed. Okay, I'm exaggerating. I only missed the unemployment office because it was closed by the time I got there. Point is, this shouldn't have happened. I promised, I vowed to myself to start right away, but somehow... well okay. All I can say is I'm sorry. AGAIN.

I want to change that particular behavior. Because I have done these tasks in three hours flat. And I could have written instead, that's the thing I WANT to do, instead of reading fan fiction. Because that's the only way I can live with unemployment, even if the unemployment is involuntary, without feeling useless. Because I want to be a good example for my daughter.

Two questions.
1) Do you have any hints as how to compel myself doing this? After all, I can't keep promises to myself. And developing a J side means to me an SJ side - I don't want to get Pessimistic NiTamske anywhere on top.

2) Can you reassure me that, even if I complete the tasks first, that I will still find some energy to do the projects afterwards? Otherwise it's pointless.

Man, this is a tough one. Staying motivated and busy when unemployed is so hard. My dad is in the same situation as you, actually -- thankfully he has enough volunteer work and projects around the house to keep him busy, but it's still such a tough situation to be in. I'm amazed he's doing so well mentally -- but then again he's INTP, so if he is having a hard time, he sure as hell isn't showing it.

Either way, I digress. To answer your questions:

1) I guess all I can say is that if I were in your situation, I would get into a mindset where nothing fun is allowed until everything else is done. If I even let myself think "Oh, there's no harm in spending just a minute or two with reading...", then I'd be screwed, so I'd remember that "a few minutes" is never actually a few minutes, and not let myself do anything until everything is done. You have to stop trusting yourself to get things done without being your own drill sergeant -- because you haven't given yourself a good reason to trust yourself. Only when you've trained yourself to get all that work done, can you trust yourself again.

So I guess all it comes down to is an attitude adjustment. I'm not sure if that's helpful at all... I can't think of a concrete, specific thing you can do, besides that.

2) Absolutely. I agree with mrcockburn -- it uses a totally different part of your brain. If anything, you'll be so excited about doing your projects (because you will have been using them as carrots the whole time you were doing errands) that you'll be even more energized when your to-do list is done!

Do you guys rely overly much on "auras" to decide whether you want to befriend/do business with someone?

As in, do you make snap judgments and decisions about people just by their vibes (and I don't mean body language, appearance, language, tone, facial expressions or anything definable)......rather than the facts and what they actually say and do?

In my life, the ESTJs I know don't. That's why I love em and there are so many of them in my life (voluntarily). Whereas certain types seem quick to judge me based on subjective "feelings", the ESTJs just merrily bulldoze right through whatever "aura" I radiate and actually find out what I'm all about before passing judgment.

Whenever I use the word "vibes" or anything similar to describe how I feel about something or someone, I am ALWAYS basing that "vibe" on something concrete. My Ni is too shitty to allow for any sort of subtext-y intuiting. -- Actually, when other people judge based on intangibles like that, it bugs me, because one of my pet peeves is when people can't justify why they think or feel a particular way. Mostly because I can explain pretty much every opinion I have about anything so I tend to hold other people to the same standard.

I pride myself in being a straightforward and basically no-bullshit person, so I'm happy that other people appreciate that (Also, the bolded made me smile -- your word choice is fantastic!!)

 

[Tamske]

^Indeed. It's the "just two minutes" that gets me every time (except after a disaster, one day or two I can resist it. But this time I want to resist it more than a day or two.) I think "while I'm waiting for that information, I can do * this *, which doesn't count, as I have to wait anyway." Which is stupid, because, like you said, it's never "just two minutes". I guess I'll just have to get it into my brain.
Hubby actually said something quite similar to you; except he said that, to change the behavior, you've got to act like you're already used to behave like that. Like acting calm can help you to calm down; and after a few times of acting a teacher, I've become a teacher. I'll try and act, consciously, until it becomes routine. After all, that's how you learn. Can I count on some support?

Edit. [brag]Did it today. Three hours left for nothing but writing now.[/brag]

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I was talking with my ENTJ friend and we were discussing our relationships. She is with an INFP. I am with an ESTJ. When we were discussing this I realized that we had very similar experiences and even complaints with each of our companions. Since ESTJ and INFP is each other's shadow, I'm wondering how this comes out. Is this more apparent in relationships? Have you noticed common traits with each other's shadow?

 

[EJCC]

^Indeed. It's the "just two minutes" that gets me every time (except after a disaster, one day or two I can resist it. But this time I want to resist it more than a day or two.) I think "while I'm waiting for that information, I can do * this *, which doesn't count, as I have to wait anyway." Which is stupid, because, like you said, it's never "just two minutes". I guess I'll just have to get it into my brain.
Hubby actually said something quite similar to you; except he said that, to change the behavior, you've got to act like you're already used to behave like that. Like acting calm can help you to calm down; and after a few times of acting a teacher, I've become a teacher. I'll try and act, consciously, until it becomes routine. After all, that's how you learn. Can I count on some support?

Of course! Always.

Edit. [brag]Did it today. Three hours left for nothing but writing now.[/brag]

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tamske Tamske rah rah rah!

I was talking with my ENTJ friend and we were discussing our relationships. She is with an INFP. I am with an ESTJ. When we were discussing this I realized that we had very similar experiences and even complaints with each of our companions. Since ESTJ and INFP is each other's shadow, I'm wondering how this comes out. Is this more apparent in relationships? Have you noticed common traits with each other's shadow?

I can have trouble with INFPs, because I can't help be reminded of my shadow; when INFPs are full of angry-Fi value-based passion and make it obvious, I see that as immaturity (even if it isn't), because I feel like I had to mature in order to avoid that behavior -- because I really do avoid it. As much as possible. Not that I avoid the feelings; I just avoid showing them, because showing them leads to being defeated in rational debate, since those Fi values aren't rational and I'm not capable of arguing them, and I end up looking like a fool. I see INFPs acting that way and I want to debate them in the same way, to see if we can come to an agreement, but when we hit that Fi wall I get so angry that I wasted all that time -- since I know from Fi experience that there's nothing you can do past that point -- and things don't end on a positive note. And then since neither of us are harmonious Fe folks, the conflict might never get settled, out of Fi pride!

Of course, it really does depend on the INFP -- for example, I get along swimmingly with [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]. And some of this comes from not having a ton of INFP experience irl. I have some, but I know INFJs so incredibly well, in comparison.

 

[sculpting]

Two questions.
1) Do you have any hints as how to compel myself doing this? After all, I can't keep promises to myself. And developing a J side means to me an SJ side - I don't want to get Pessimistic NiTamske anywhere on top.

2) Can you reassure me that, even if I complete the tasks first, that I will still find some energy to do the projects afterwards? Otherwise it's pointless.

Tamske, my entp friend notes that lists of tasks always make her feel like a "washing machine" doing things, but not things that actually amount to anything real? I dunno, as I dont identify with that, but for her it seems to be very real... Theoretically anything that engages Ne or Fe for you, should be most energizing, thus most easily accomplished. Perhaps rather than trying to motivate yourself from the Te/list of tasks perpsective, motivate by seeing the underlying value for your family each task can help support-Fe- or by seeing the possibilities that each task may open up for you-Ne? *Hugs*


Ms EJCC,

Are estjs typicaly aware of discord or confusion in teams they manage? Also, does an estj expect that everyone will be as extroverted as quickly as they are? My new estj boss is amazingly awesome, but i think she is confused as to why I dont just leap into action. For me, I need to build context before I ca make suggestions I have any confidence in...