[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

You know what gets on my nerves?
When "there goes my little ESTJ again" he's RIGHT and I'm WRONG.
He's so much better than I am. He's more or less a constant given, always there, if you'd sculpt an allegory of Reliability it's him.
I'm the one who breaks down all the time, who needs to be forgiven, who is irrational(*) and flaky.
I hate this. I've always got the impression I have to be as good for him as he's for me, and I can't do that.
(*) I especially hate my irrational bursts. I know even while I'm doing it things are wrong. Mostly they are driven by the "I want to be as good for you as you are for me" thought, making the irrational circle complete and driving my ESTJ up the wall. Argh. I don't want. I'm currently trying to rewire my brain and add a "recognize pattern and cut short" to it.

... Is cooking a good meal every day enough?

For ESTJs, our respect and love for people is often implicit and not really shown to the world. But think about it this way - if he didn't love and respect you, and if he didn't think of you as his partner/equal/friend/etc, he wouldn't be with you. And on a sappier note, if he's like me, and you're like my female ENTP friend who I've known for five years, then he's with you because you are

- Sweet
- Funny
- Creative
- Intelligent
- Always honest/telling it like it is (a big plus with ESTJs)
- Etc.

And even if you are flaky (in terms of not always meeting deadlines or being on time), you're still reliable in the most important way - i.e. you'll be there if your loved ones need you. That's why I love my ENTP friend, and presumably those are some of the reasons why he loves you.

Even if he's "the reliable one", you're still five times more creative than him (yes, I can admit it), and you're still (again, if you're like my ENTP friend) an excellent confidante - especially when a poor ESTJ is feeling irrational, KNOWS that (s)he is being irrational, and needs someone to talk some sense into him/her. (I do this all the time, especially with Thinker friends. "I'm worrying about this, and it's stupid to be worrying about it. Tell me why I shouldn't worry.")

In short... you're great for him

(Hopefully that pep talk helped a little bit. )

Before going into suggestion mode on a situation. I have a bad habbit of already having the t-shirt from a lot of suggestions friends and family have for me.

Here's how it would work:

You: "Hey ESTJ - I was having a problem with W. It's just not doing what it should. I tried doing X, and my friends suggested doing Y, but neither one worked."
ESTJ: "Are you SURE that X didn't work? I would have suggested that first..."
You: "Yes, I'm positive. I've read the manual, so I know what it should be doing, and it didn't do that."
ESTJ: "Did you try Z?"

And I consider that to be the optimum interaction. ESTJs will go into suggestion mode when they presume that they have all the information they need to fix the problem (as opposed to others, like INTPs, who feel like they need every piece of information there is, not just what they presume to be relevant). In other words, to answer your initial question, the ESTJ would definitely read the log first. That way, they wouldn't suggest something that was tried earlier and failed. So, I highly recommend that you do that next time - i.e. give the ESTJ all the information you can right up front. That's how ESTJs ask for help, anyways.

EJCC,

You made my day with your clarification--thanks so much! You need to get paid for this!!!!

Thanks! Which part of the clarification?

And yes, I should be paid... Open your hearts - and your pocketbooks (as they say in the Televangelist community)!

 

[sui generis]

Disclaimer: This post may not speak for all of ESTJ-kind, and may simply be a reflection of my own individual quirks. I would love backup/response from other ESTJs!

RE: going into suggestion mode... it's interesting. You know, I haaaate receiving unsolicited advice, or being told the answer when it's something I already know, or can figure out for myself. Because I HATE THIS SO MUCH, I assume that other people do as well, so I'm likely to make sure that a person really *doesn't* understand and really *does* need suggestions before jumping in and giving them. I ask a lot of questions before I get into advice-giving mode. YMMV.

 

[EJCC]

Disclaimer: This post may not speak for all of ESTJ-kind, and may simply be a reflection of my own individual quirks. I would love backup/response from other ESTJs!

RE: going into suggestion mode... it's interesting. You know, I haaaate receiving unsolicited advice, or being told the answer when it's something I already know, or can figure out for myself. Because I HATE THIS SO MUCH, I assume that other people do as well, so I'm likely to make sure that a person really *doesn't* understand and really *does* need suggestions before jumping in and giving them. I ask a lot of questions before I get into advice-giving mode. YMMV.

Lol, this could be part of you being borderline on E and S, because it shows some impressive self-restraint for someone with dominant Te. That's why, with most ESTJs you hear people complaining about, they just go up to people and say "You have to do ____. Right now", which is also where the "manager" reputation comes from. In my case, I "suggest" things so that I can fit with social norms and not seem like a total bitch by bossing everyone around. But it's impressive, what you do, in my opinion.

However, the thought process you use - "I hate it when people do that, so I assume that everyone else does, so I won't do it" - is exactly how I think about different topics. Like lying. Compulsive liars make me want to go Chuck Norris on someone.

 

[runvardh]

Here's how it would work:

You: "Hey ESTJ - I was having a problem with W. It's just not doing what it should. I tried doing X, and my friends suggested doing Y, but neither one worked."
ESTJ: "Are you SURE that X didn't work? I would have suggested that first..."
You: "Yes, I'm positive. I've read the manual, so I know what it should be doing, and it didn't do that."
ESTJ: "Did you try Z?"

And I consider that to be the optimum interaction. ESTJs will go into suggestion mode when they presume that they have all the information they need to fix the problem (as opposed to others, like INTPs, who feel like they need every piece of information there is, not just what they presume to be relevant). In other words, to answer your initial question, the ESTJ would definitely read the log first. That way, they wouldn't suggest something that was tried earlier and failed. So, I highly recommend that you do that next time - i.e. give the ESTJ all the information you can right up front. That's how ESTJs ask for help, anyways.

Ah, good. Some people, when I manage to dredge up the list, end up walking away, which is fine, but I get the feeling it hurts them.

Disclaimer: This post may not speak for all of ESTJ-kind, and may simply be a reflection of my own individual quirks. I would love backup/response from other ESTJs!

RE: going into suggestion mode... it's interesting. You know, I haaaate receiving unsolicited advice, or being told the answer when it's something I already know, or can figure out for myself. Because I HATE THIS SO MUCH, I assume that other people do as well, so I'm likely to make sure that a person really *doesn't* understand and really *does* need suggestions before jumping in and giving them. I ask a lot of questions before I get into advice-giving mode. YMMV.

Yeah, I have a bad habit of being curious if my train of thought is right or not on some things, especially if there is a possibility of it relating to myself or things in my life. Because of that I make an effort to tolerate... when I'm sane...

 

[EJCC]

Ah, good. Some people, when I manage to dredge up the list, end up walking away, which is fine, but I get the feeling it hurts them.

I know that sometimes when people go off on lists like that after I try to give advice (without them directly asking for it), I take it as "Oh, they were just venting. They didn't need my advice at all. Sigh... " So that could be it. Also, if I can't think of a solution. That could be it too.

 

[sui generis]

Lol, this could be part of you being borderline on E and S, because it shows some impressive self-restraint for someone with dominant Te.

This explanation makes tons of sense! I think that my borderline E and S are the reason why I don't identify with some of the ESTJ traits, or identify with them to a lesser extent.

However, the thought process you use - "I hate it when people do that, so I assume that everyone else does, so I won't do it" - is exactly how I think about different topics. Like lying. Compulsive liars make me want to go Chuck Norris on someone.

In ways, for me, it works the other way around. Because *I'm* compulsively honest, I expect *everyone else* to be compulsively honest as well. Unfortunately this is not the case.

And your mention of Chuck Norris made me think of this image, which is somehow indelibly etched in my brain:

This is also how I feel about liars. They make me want to put on my stretchy pants and kick some ass.

 

[raz]

*still scheming ESTJ flirting tactics*

 

[EJCC]

This explanation makes tons of sense! I think that my borderline E and S are the reason why I don't identify with some of the ESTJ traits, or identify with them to a lesser extent.

Out of curiosity - which ones don't you identify with? Are they major or minor traits?

In ways, for me, it works the other way around. Because *I'm* compulsively honest, I expect *everyone else* to be compulsively honest as well. Unfortunately this is not the case.

Actually, that's 100% true of me, too. I guess it works both ways.

This is also how I feel about liars. They make me want to put on my stretchy pants and kick some ass.

Hell. YES. The picture and quote made my day.

*still scheming ESTJ flirting tactics*

*still anticipating the final product of the scheming and pretending like she isn't*

 

[mrcockburn]

Why do you insist on doing chores frequently, when they'll just need to be done soon anyway? Why not let it build up until you HAVE to get them all done.

Case in point: doing the dishes.

NOTES: Time walking to and from sink = 60 seconds. Turning on the faucet = 1 second. Putting on gloves = 2 seconds. Turning faucet off = 1 second.

Scenario 1: You wash a dish after each use. You have 30 dishes a week that you use one at a time.

Scenario 2: Wash all the dishes when you have no more clean plates.

Time savings as a result of 1 bulk washing (Scenario 2) = (64 seconds)*(30 dishes) = 1920 seconds - 64 seconds = 1856 seconds, or 30.93 minutes.

Think of all the things you ESTJs can knit/nit-pick during that time!

 

[sui generis]

Out of curiosity - which ones don't you identify with? Are they major or minor traits?

The biggest one for me is that I'm supposed to be conservative and have an unhealthy attachment to orthodoxy. I'm as liberal as they come! I definitely have a keen sense of right and wrong for myself, and a strong idea of what is right and wrong, politically, but it's certainly not conservative or orthodox. II don't have a distaste for people who don't conform to "the norm", either. I'm a polyamorous vegetarian agnostic-atheist, for fuck's sake! I used to have pink and purple hair! :steam:

Also, I don't have much interest in holidays. I like tradition for it's own sake, but I haaaate the holiday season. I'm good at remembering birthdays, and I'm big on celebrating anniversaries (both of relationships and personal anniversaries). Still, I'm not a fan of celebrating holidays for their own sake.

I think I am much more flexible and less managerial than ESTJs are "supposed" to be, but like you said previously, that could have a lot to do with my ambivalence when it comes to E/I and N/S.

The last one I can think of right now is that all of the recommended ESTJ careers sound boring as hell.

 

[sui generis]

*still scheming ESTJ flirting tactics*

 

[EJCC]

Why do you insist on doing chores frequently, when they'll just need to be done soon anyway? Why not let it build up until you HAVE to get them all done.

Case in point: doing the dishes.

NOTES: Time walking to and from sink = 60 seconds. Turning on the faucet = 1 second. Putting on gloves = 2 seconds. Turning faucet off = 1 second.

Scenario 1: You wash a dish after each use. You have 30 dishes a week that you use one at a time.

Scenario 2: Wash all the dishes when you have no more clean plates.

Time savings as a result of 1 bulk washing (Scenario 2) = (64 seconds)*(30 dishes) = 1920 seconds - 64 seconds = 1856 seconds, or 30.93 minutes.

Think of all the things you ESTJs can knit/nit-pick during that time!

Dude, tell those facts and calculations to ANY ESTJ, and they'll change their minds! You've certainly convinced me.

Seriously. That was the best ESTJ-language-speaking I've seen from any non-ESTJ here in a VERY long time. Cheers to you, my friend.

The biggest one for me is that I'm supposed to be conservative and have an unhealthy attachment to orthodoxy. I'm as liberal as they come! I definitely have a keen sense of right and wrong for myself, and a strong idea of what is right and wrong, politically, but it's certainly not conservative or orthodox. II don't have a distaste for people who don't conform to "the norm", either. I'm a polyamorous vegetarian agnostic-atheist, for fuck's sake! I used to have pink and purple hair! :steam:

Also, I don't have much interest in holidays. I like tradition for it's own sake, but I haaaate the holiday season. I'm good at remembering birthdays, and I'm big on celebrating anniversaries (both of relationships and personal anniversaries). Still, I'm not a fan of celebrating holidays for their own sake.

I think I am much more flexible and less managerial than ESTJs are "supposed" to be, but like you said previously, that could have a lot to do with my ambivalence when it comes to E/I and N/S.

The last one I can think of right now is that all of the recommended ESTJ careers sound boring as hell.

I'm glad I asked that question, since your answer completely changed my mind. Out of all the reasons you listed, only the bolded could likely be explained by being on the border on E and S. The rest are common complaints with ESTJs - and I used to complain about them too. I think it all comes down to how you define "orthodoxy" and "tradition". After all, everyone's definition of "tradition" is different, and everyone is raised with different traditions. I'm pretty liberal myself (though not agnostic, and never in my life with multicolored hair), but there are still things that I have stereotypes about, and things that I consider traditional that I don't want to go away. (For example, I hate e-readers (like the Amazon Kindle) with a passion, and I get mad at people who say that newspapers are a dying breed.)

Also, I think ESTJs can function well in most jobs if they want to (except jobs that require a lot of Fe, like therapy or social work).

 

[raz]

*still anticipating the final product of the scheming and pretending like she isn't*

Friday night. You, me, lots of cuddling, playful fun and mutual admiration. Be there.

 

[EJCC]

Friday night. You, me, lots of cuddling, playful fun and mutual admiration. Be there.

That was EXCELLENT ESTJ flirting, raz.

Very very good!

If only guys in the real world talked like that...

Gotta get me an ISTJ boyfriend, I guess!

 

[sui generis]

there are still things that I have stereotypes about, and things that I consider traditional that I don't want to go away. (For example, I hate e-readers (like the Amazon Kindle) with a passion, and I get mad at people who say that newspapers are a dying breed.)

Also, I think ESTJs can function well in most jobs if they want to (except jobs that require a lot of Fe, like therapy or social work).

I try to rid myself of my stereotypes, but am not as good at it as I'd like to be. I *am* prone to making snap judgments about people, which are more often than not COMPLETELY WRONG.

I don't want a Kindle myself, because I love books (books as room decoration, the feeling of a book in my hands, the smell of old books...!) but I can understand how it would be appealing to other people. And it breaks my heart to think of newspapers as a dying breed, even though I get all of my news online.

It's funny that you mentioned therapy/social work as a poor ESTJ job choice. My degree is in psychology, and I was pretty sure that I wanted to go into clinical psych, until I took clinical psych courses during my last year of college. Taking on other people's problems 40 hours per week? DO NOT WANT.


Also, I am glad to hear that those things I mentioned were common ESTJ complaints. I sometimes wondered if I was mistyped, or doing something wrong.

 

[EJCC]

It's funny that you mentioned therapy/social work as a poor ESTJ job choice. My degree is in psychology, and I was pretty sure that I wanted to go into clinical psych, until I took clinical psych courses during my last year of college. Taking on other people's problems 40 hours per week? DO NOT WANT.

Exactly. Psychology is awesome on paper, but when you actually have to deal with PEOPLE... *shudder*

Also, I am glad to hear that those things I mentioned were common ESTJ complaints. I sometimes wondered if I was mistyped, or doing something wrong.

Nope. It's just that ESTJs aren't exactly the most common in MBTI circles*, so it takes a certain degree of guesswork for non-ESTJs (and for that matter, I'm guessing, non-SJs) to write about them.

*Take this forum, for example. By my calculations, the total number of regularly posting ESTJs right now is... three.

 

[raz]

*Take this forum, for example. By my calculations, the total number of regularly posting ESTJs right now is... three.

I might be going after a certain ESTJ than with a lack of a variety of experiences with them. Eekgads!

 

[sui generis]

but when you actually have to deal with PEOPLE... *shudder*

Careful now, you sound like an introvert.

ESTJs aren't exactly the most common in MBTI circles*, so it takes a certain degree of guesswork for non-ESTJs (and for that matter, I'm guessing, non-SJs) to write about them.

YES. I think there is a dearth of S-typed people who are interested in MBTI at all. Which surprises me. I had someone on this forum tell me that they'd never met an S-type who was interested in MBTI, which surprises me. I like it, even though it's by no means perfect, because it provides a great shorthand for explaining something so complicated as personality. The S in me likes it because it has real-world implications. There are types I get along with better than others, and the more I understand my type, my self, the happier I am.

I think that ESTJs are stereotyped and villified by people who are interested in type. Which frustrates me.

 

[Colors]

Mnestic, your dish washing method sounds an awful like a cockroach-attracting method as well. But cool to see another ESTJ around here!

 

[sui generis]

Thanks, it is good to be here!

I didn't even enter the dishwashing conversation! Dishwashing is the only chore I'd say I honestly hate, so I am torn between my natural urge to keep things tidy, and my feelings of disgust about dishwashing. I try to clean as I go, but sometimes I just postpone it until I'm out of forks. My last apartment had a dishwasher. I miss it.