[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[ChocolateMoose123]

So... what about a nice, fragrant bonsai tree? ... I only say that because he has a lot of plants and is always watering them. And a bonsai tree would be nicer looking than at least a few of them. He really likes his apartment looking nice. :rolli:

That sounds great! I once got my ESTJ hand soap.......yes, hand soap. Because he liked it so much and he wouldn't stop talking about how he liked the smell of this particular brand. So I got it for him and apologized when I gave it to him cause I thought it was such a crappy gift. (but he had everything and I was at a loss. So I got it anyway). But he liked it. I think your bonzai tree will go over very well! I mean, who wouldn't love a bonzai tree?...they're adorable!

 

[Unique]

Are you able to chill out if things need to be done? If not why does it stop you from being able to chill?

 

[EJCC]

I can definitely chill out. But, of course, it depends on the situation. I can chill in any of these things-getting-done situations:

- The thing isn't a big deal
- The thing is easy to do/I'm confident in my ability to complete the thing
- Somebody I trust to do the thing is going to do it (therefore it's not my thing to worry about anymore, and my responsibility is gone)
- Even though the thing is important, there are MORE important things to deal with.

Any other situation will worry me. Even if there's no reason to be worried, if there's no reason to be confident either, then I might still worry. People often make fun of me for saying stuff like "I'm concerned about this deadline" the day before, and then doing really well... but that doesn't keep me from worrying about it. The thing is, it's usually not a crippling worry - I get over it quickly. So even though I'm not chill, I'm not stressed out either, at least I'm not stressed WHILE I'm working. It's somewhere in the middle - I call it "business mode". Very matter-of-fact, methodical... robotic? Hard to say.

But yeah, I often chill out, though not as much as other people do. (I think I chill out more than most of the FJs I know, though - they worry a lot, especially the older ones. And the ISFJ that I know always ends up regretting it when she chills out too much.) I think one of the reasons why we don't chill out more than we do is that we don't necessarily NEED to chill out that much. We like busy schedules, so if we keep our days filled, we might just be happy going home and watching half an hour of TV, and that would be our only chillaxing time. Yay for long attention spans

 

[Unique]

Oh thanks for that, I was unaware of the actual process but yeah that makes sense... its not stress but maybe just an incomplete feeling that disallows full relaxation

Guess the best way for an ESTJ to chill is to take a holiday away from it all?

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, probably - better yet, a holiday that's being planned by somebody else (that they trust to do the job well). That way they won't be trying to control everything.

 

[Fidelia]

Can you bear to sit down if you have dishes in the sink? I rarely see evidence of ESTJ messiness. Under what circumstances could it manifest itself?

 

[Fidelia]

Someone expressed surprise to me that an ESTJ man would enjoy cooking (perhaps they figured that they'd prefer more traditional gender roles?). I know three ESTJ men who revel in it and are the primary cook in their relationship. They are fairly adventurous in it and like getting others to try tasty things, whether they have made them or whether they've discovered them somewhere. (The less mature ones are a little impatient with people who have illogical likes and dislikes in eating.)

I think learning to cook has to do with liking to be self-sufficient, an appreciation of the practical and wanting to be competent at whatever they do. Cooking seems to me to be one of those things that would enhance their surroundings in an enjoyable, useful, concrete way, and also serve as a vehicle to show care for those they love. Is that true in your experience, or not?

 

[EJCC]

Can you bear to sit down if you have dishes in the sink? I rarely see evidence of ESTJ messiness. Under what circumstances could it manifest itself?

If there's not enough time to fix something, or if it's an "organized mess", or if, by accident, it's gotten to the messiness point where the ESTJ kinda gives up, then they might leave it messy. Dishes, though, are a different story, because you don't have to really organize them, so it doesn't take a lot of work/thought to do them. So... I guess, unless it's the job of someone else in the house to do the dishes, ESTJs probably wouldn't want to leave them unwashed for long. So I guess it depends on the situation, and what kind of mess it is.

Someone expressed surprise to me that an ESTJ man would enjoy cooking (perhaps they figured that they'd prefer more traditional gender roles?). I know three ESTJ men who revel in it and are the primary cook in their relationship. They are fairly adventurous in it and like getting others to try tasty things, whether they have made them or whether they've discovered them somewhere. (The less mature ones are a little impatient with people who have illogical likes and dislikes in eating.)

Maybe it seems too creative? I dunno. Either way, I relate to the entire paragraph (including the bold part, I'm sorry to say. Example: I have an ENTP friend who kinda has taste bud OCD, in that she doesn't like different tastes mixing in her mouth - plus, she doesn't eat meat - so she eats this boring kid food all day every day, and it DRIVES ME UP THE WALL :steam

I think learning to cook has to do with liking to be self-sufficient, an appreciation of the practical and wanting to be competent at whatever they do. Cooking seems to me to be one of those things that would enhance their surroundings in an enjoyable, useful, concrete way, and also serve as a vehicle to show care for those they love. Is that true in your experience, or not?

You're totally right. I wouldn't have phrased it as well; if you had asked me the primary reason that I like to cook, I would have said that I like the process of taking all this seemingly unrelated stuff, mixing it together, and ending up with something delicious, and being able to say "I made that!" (Which connects directly to the self-sufficiency thing and the wanting-to-be-competent thing, but not to everything else.)

That's why I like knitting, too - the process of taking yarn, making some loops, and coming out with a beautiful garment that you can say you made yourself.

Also, there's the fact that cooking is cheaper than going to restaurants, and knitting is cheaper than buying knit clothes (usually)... speaking of practical.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, I think it's the accomplishment of creating something great from simple things while cooking that they find rewarding. For example, my ESTJ took great pleasure in smoking salmon in the smoker. It was something unusual, he took pride in doing it well, others appreciated it, and it impressed people. I think he also found something rewarding in taking the food that would be otherwise wasted and finding interesting ways of combining it into satisfying and tasty dishes. Definitely the practical considerations fit in there as well.

It satisfied my ESTJ that I was at least willing to try most things and he realized that if he gave me enough time, I also became much more open to both eating and cooking ingredients that I was not open to before. I would be much more likely to just take it at face value if someone said they disliked something instead of doing the Green Eggs and Ham thing. I actually appreciated that he cared enough to find ways of making the food where I could get to like things like fish or eggs.

He was horrified that I might not serve tuna from a can or something that I didn't enjoy if I were to have children because it was depriving them of growing to appreciate that. I on the other hand felt that it would be hypocritical to expect a child to eat something that I didn't. I wouldn't mind letting them try it, but if they didn't like it right away, I wouldn't persist. Probably we met in the middle on our thoughts on some of those issues. As a parent, perhaps the ESTJ may tend to have unnecessary battles with the child over food when it would straighten itself out over time without ruining the harmony of many meals. I probably have more sympathy, as I used to gag a lot as a kid when I tried to eat certain food that is no longer a problem now. My mother was big on taking thank you portions of several bites, to keep trying it, but not pushing it too much.

My ESTJ was very confused by my dislike of certain food based solely on texture, but conceded the point after seeing how many other people are the same way. If I had been alone in my opinion though...

 

[EJCC]

Yes, I think it's the accomplishment of creating something great from simple things while cooking that they find rewarding. For example, my ESTJ took great pleasure in smoking salmon in the smoker. It was something unusual, he took pride in doing it well, others appreciated it, and it impressed people.

Do you think this has anything to do with hierarchy? e.g. "No one else cooks salmon in the smoker (that I'm friendly with), so I'm at the top of the hierarchy because there's no one else IN the hierarchy! w00t!"

I would be much more likely to just take it at face value if someone said they disliked something instead of doing the Green Eggs and Ham thing.

LOL, I love that - "the Green Eggs and Ham thing"! I totally do that too. It seems like on pretty much every topic, I have to understand WHY they feel like that, and if they've considered this or that, etc, etc, and it becomes almost a debate, even though I'm not consciously trying to debate them.

As a parent, perhaps the ESTJ may tend to have unnecessary battles with the child over food when it would straighten itself out over time without ruining the harmony of many meals.

I think we tend to make unnecessary battles out of ANYTHING. (See above )

I probably have more sympathy, as I used to gag a lot as a kid when I tried to eat certain food that is no longer a problem now. My mother was big on taking thank you portions of several bites, to keep trying it, but not pushing it too much.

That may be part of it. See, I dunno about other ESTJs, but I'm not a picky eater at all. Sure, I liked mac and cheese the best when I was a kid, but I'd also eat anything people gave me, pretty much since birth. (I first fell in love with alfredo sauce before I was a year old, and I ate - and appreciated - calamari when I was about five.) So, I dunno if it's type related, but that may have been the issue. ESTJs who are picky eaters would definitely be more sympathetic, but, as such, I know of no such people... not that that's saying much, since I just know the one ESTJ irl. (The ISTJ I know, on the other hand, is one of the pickiest eaters I know... but then again, she doesn't have that passion for cooking that we were just talking about.)

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Do ESTJ's ever use jokes or teasing as a way to express their inner feelings?

 

[Fidelia]

That's funny about the hierarchy. Absolutely I think that's a part of it. No one can cook the kinds of food I do etc. He took great pleasure in talking about what we ate to other people - whole grains that they hadn't tried etc probably because it may impress them and put him at the top of that hierarchy. Same thing with making things like stuffed peppers and showing how easy it was to do, but them still being wowed and scared to try doing it themselves.

I too have never met an ESTJ who was a picky eater. That's strange - does it have to do with doing what you are supposed to as little kids and becoming acclimatised to eating everything, or are you just given a different set of more accommodating taste buds? The ESTJs I know are opinionated eaters though. Mine took over making his own meals as a young teenager because he didn't like how his mother was doing it and she wouldn't listen to his attempts at reform.

I do remember honestly wanting to be different as a kid, but not enjoying a lot of tastes or textures. I often needed ketchup and a glass of water to get food down. As an adult now, I would eat nearly everything with the exception of a couple of vegetables and meat on the bone because of the cartilagey/gristley stuff.

 

[EJCC]

Do ESTJ's ever use jokes or teasing as a way to express their inner feelings?

All the time, absolutely! When I need to let something out that would otherwise make me feel vulnerable, I might disguise it as a self-deprecating joke, or an exaggerated, entertaining rant. (Many of my friends see through this, which, honestly, I wish they didn't - I guess I'm not a good enough actor?) I dunno about teasing, though... I suppose, in a situation where a friend is being annoying, I might try to tease them (as opposed to something harsher), again, to let it out without causing anything serious.

I too have never met an ESTJ who was a picky eater. That's strange - does it have to do with doing what you are supposed to as little kids and becoming acclimatised to eating everything, or are you just given a different set of more accommodating taste buds?

I'm not entirely sure. Maybe we view unusual food as a challenge waiting to be accepted, a chance to prove our toughness to the world. It could be our detail-oriented minds, noticing and appreciating the unusual aspects of the food rather than shying away from it. It could be that it's adventurous without being too dangerous. Maybe it's a coincidence, and it's just that my dad (an INTP) is an adventurous eater too (whose ONLY food dislike is bland food), and I got it from him. I wonder...

The ESTJs I know are opinionated eaters though. Mine took over making his own meals as a young teenager because he didn't like how his mother was doing it and she wouldn't listen to his attempts at reform.

Interesting! I could see myself doing that, though, thankfully, my mom almost always cooked food that I liked. (Plus, whenever I expressed dislike for food that she cooked, she would listen to me - she's an INFJ.)

 

[Fidelia]

I've just got to say it again EJCC. Thanks for being on the forum and especially for sticking with this thread. You have no idea how nice it is to get a little window into the ESTJ mind and from someone who can offer it in an approachable and helpful way. Keep up the good work!

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

All the time, absolutely! When I need to let something out that would otherwise make me feel vulnerable, I might disguise it as a self-deprecating joke, or an exaggerated, entertaining rant. (Many of my friends see through this, which, honestly, I wish they didn't - I guess I'm not a good enough actor?) I dunno about teasing, though... I suppose, in a situation where a friend is being annoying, I might try to tease them (as opposed to something harsher), again, to let it out without causing anything serious.

This is how you guys flirt too? I've sort of noticed it seems that way. Yet, sometimes this particular ESTJ will say something shocking (like a bold flirty statement where he goes somewhere I wouldn't think he would take the flirting) and then backs down and sort of negates it as a "just kidding" kind of thing. It's weird to me and I don't know whether he's serious or not (we have history together) but my logical side always wants more proof. So in that sense, ESTJ gets away with doing this. It doesn't bother me but it's perplexing and I don't know how to react to it. Or what reaction is best. I try to laugh it off and yet I feel we are dancing around the same feelings but neither one of us has the guts to initiate anything for fear of being hurt. For being so "J" ESTJ leaves emotions hanging like no other type I know! I guess I'm guilty of that to some degree as well. But they are masters at it!

 

[EJCC]

I've just got to say it again EJCC. Thanks for being on the forum and especially for sticking with this thread. You have no idea how nice it is to get a little window into the ESTJ mind and from someone who can offer it in an approachable and helpful way. Keep up the good work!

Thank you very much. I'm glad that you find me helpful. I only wish that there were more areas of the forum where I could help out.

This is how you guys flirt too? I've sort of noticed it seems that way. Yet, sometimes this particular ESTJ will say something shocking (like a bold flirty statement where he goes somewhere I wouldn't think he would take the flirting) and then backs down and sort of negates it as a "just kidding" kind of thing. It's weird to me and I don't know whether he's serious or not (we have history together) but my logical side always wants more proof. So in that sense, ESTJ gets away with doing this. It doesn't bother me but it's perplexing and I don't know how to react to it. Or what reaction is best. I try to laugh it off and yet I feel we are dancing around the same feelings but neither one of us has the guts to initiate anything for fear of being hurt. For being so "J" ESTJ leaves emotions hanging like no other type I know! I guess I'm guilty of that to some degree as well. But they are masters at it!

Yeah, it sounds like he's serious. If he wasn't, I doubt that he would make any comments at all. See, when I'm around guys that I like, I would err on the side of caution and hold in those impulses for fear of making things awkward, but I could see how an ESTJ in a certain situation (or, more accurately, a certain mood) would do something like that. I think, because of being J, we have a need for total control over a situation, and when you open yourself up completely, you can't safely predict what will happen as a result, and a lot is at stake. Whereas you INTPs are better at improvising, and taking risks.

Was your bolded statement a question? If so, I'd suggest making an equally over-the-top-flirtatious comment back at him - that is, if you like him. If you don't, then maybe you should just be direct and talk to him about it (in private), saying that you don't like him in that way. That would most likely be awkward, but it would bring some closure, which is always a good thing.

 

[Fidelia]

I think the answer for that is you guys talking enough elsewhere for others to get to know you! One of the reasons that Ns write off SJs is that the real life ones don't talk to them about how they think and even here the SJs keep to themselves, so Ns often don't learn to appreciate their great qualities or their possibilities for teaching. You truly are an untapped resource and most forums don't even have SJs that stick around.

In general, I find SJs aren't as likely to look for why things are how they are, because they are more willing to accept that they are that way and that's not likely to change. That also means that you are less likely to become involved in many of the discussions on here. And yet, I have found the things I've learned here to be extremely useful and applicable when talking to other T types, so I believe you do have enough commonalities to contribute effectively to other discussions. You especially, my dear, are a good representative of your kind, you are tough enough not to wilt under the ESTJ stereotypes/animosity and I think you could go a long ways towards educating others.

Since you guys make up a larger chunk of the population than the Ns, you can really give us some ideas of how to interact more smoothly. As a side benefit, you may find out some things incidently about other types that you may not have known, as we did through our conversations back and forth on here.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Thank you very much. I'm glad that you find me helpful. I only wish that there were more areas of the forum where I could help out.


Yeah, it sounds like he's serious. If he wasn't, I doubt that he would make any comments at all. See, when I'm around guys that I like, I would err on the side of caution and hold in those impulses for fear of making things awkward, but I could see how an ESTJ in a certain situation (or, more accurately, a certain mood) would do something like that. I think, because of being J, we have a need for total control over a situation, and when you open yourself up completely, you can't safely predict what will happen as a result, and a lot is at stake. Whereas you INTPs are better at improvising, and taking risks.

Was your bolded statement a question? If so, I'd suggest making an equally over-the-top-flirtatious comment back at him - that is, if you like him. If you don't, then maybe you should just be direct and talk to him about it (in private), saying that you don't like him in that way. That would most likely be awkward, but it would bring some closure, which is always a good thing.

What mood would that be?

Well, I did do the equally over the top flirtatious comment back at him and his response was confusing. He sent a complimentary flirty comment back to me but with a "jk" at the end of it.

How was he not kidding before but now that I met him on his "level of flirting" he is? Seems like a smart way to have your cake and eat it too. Can't be called out.

 

[EJCC]

What mood would that be?

Very cheerful? Energetic/hyper? Drunk? Any one of those situations would embolden an ESTJ, allowing them to make comments like that when, otherwise, they'd be more cautious. However, the more you talk about it, the more I think that none of those apply here. What he's doing seems un-ESTJ to me - I mean, we're known to be very direct, but he's being very indirect and sending a lot of mixed signals.

Well, I did do the equally over the top flirtatious comment back at him and his response was confusing. He sent a complimentary flirty comment back to me but with a "jk" at the end of it.

Whut?? I don't get that. Maybe he sees that you like him, but is too cautious to take it further? That's the only thing I can think of at the moment. But it's worth asking - do you think he might be borderline on N, or anything like that? Is he socially awkward? Also, does he flirt like that with any other women?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Very cheerful? Energetic/hyper? Drunk? Any one of those situations would embolden an ESTJ, allowing them to make comments like that when, otherwise, they'd be more cautious. However, the more you talk about it, the more I think that none of those apply here. What he's doing seems un-ESTJ to me - I mean, we're known to be very direct, but he's being very indirect and sending a lot of mixed signals.


Whut?? I don't get that. Maybe he sees that you like him, but is too cautious to take it further? That's the only thing I can think of at the moment. But it's worth asking - do you think he might be borderline on N, or anything like that? Is he socially awkward? Also, does he flirt like that with any other women?

I know he wasn't drunk when he was flirting like that.
A little history: We were together for a year. He broke it off - suddenly and without warning. We've been friends for the last 2 years. I found out a few things recently that may shed some light on the situation for you.

1) Me, him and some of my friends went out one night. One of my friends (who didn't know we dated) asked him how he knew me. He said we dated. She asked him what happened. His response was, "I fucked it up. I got scared and I ran." I love my friends! They tell me everything...

2) I bought him a stuffed little pig as a present once over a year ago and I found out he still keeps it in his truck. (which he cleans religiously, so I know he didn't "forget" about it in there).

3) He usually comes to me for advice about his SO's. He is dating someone currently and has told me that he probably would've ended this relationship sooner (she is kind of psycho. Breaks into his email/phone. One time she followed his car into work while they're both on the phone arguing - they do not work together.) but that he's afraid to because he knows it will be really bad. He told me that he feels bad but realizes that she is, "Mrs. right now. Not Mrs. right" so he's staying with her. (I told him I don't agree with this but I understand it). He was telling me how he was discussing this issue with his mom and he told her that he was talking to me about it and from whatever he said his mom asked him why he wasn't back with me. He said that our schedules are so busy we would never see each other. This is sort of true. We're each very busy. I work two jobs/in school. He works/single parent/in school.

4) On more than one occasion he has said that he has "always like what we were and are and is glad that we're friends and we never lost that."

5) I've told him more than once that I'd rather be his friend because he is way more open with me without intimacy than when we were together. Put sex into the equation and he becomes a bumbling idiot about relationships. He's a better "boyfriend" as a friend than when we were together. I don't want to lose that but yet I think in time we could be something really great. The more I think about it - I think we're right for each other but it's not the right time.

Ugh. Sorry for how long this is and the fact that it's so personal. I usually don't feel better about talking about stuff that confuses me. But my confusion outweighs my pride right now and I trust your feedback.


No. he's not socially awkward - at all. Everyone loves him. I'm sure he's ESTJ because I had him take the MBTI test. If anything I don't remember but J might be his lowest letter. But he's definitely ESTJ. He is a bit of a flirt.