[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Dreamer]

This romantic vulnerability, do you think it's because people may see that through an emotional vulnerability and therefore ESTJs find themselves at a bit of a disadvantage? If you weren't expected or reminded of such vulnerabilities but instead, allowed to express the ESTJ equivalent, whatever that may be, what would that look like? How would you show your partner a certain vulnerability that isn't seen around a casual friend?

Suddenly, I find myself very interested in this personality type

 

[EJCC]

This romantic vulnerability, do you think it's because people may see that through an emotional vulnerability and therefore ESTJs find themselves at a bit of a disadvantage? If you weren't expected or reminded of such vulnerabilities but instead, allowed to express the ESTJ equivalent, whatever that may be, what would that look like? How would you show your partner a certain vulnerability that isn't seen around a casual friend?

Suddenly, I find myself very interested in this personality type

A romantic partner should know that I care about them by the amount of attention I give to them and their (spoken or unspoken) needs: listening to them, being emotionally invested in what they do, showing up for them when they need it, and little nice things like surprising them with a nice dinner, giving them a shoulder massage if they're feeling tense, coming home with a bottle of their favorite wine and a listening ear if they've had a rough day that they want to talk out.

That said, my love language is Acts of Service*, and not all ESTJs have that love language (I assume), so... take this with a grain of salt.


*took me for freaking ever to figure this out, because it doesn't manifest as doing chores for people, which always seems to be the typical example. it manifests as doing small things for people that I know they appreciate and that I know will matter to them.

 

[Dreamer]

A romantic partner should know that I care about them by the amount of attention I give to them and their (spoken or unspoken) needs: listening to them, being emotionally invested in what they do, showing up for them when they need it, and little nice things like surprising them with a nice dinner, giving them a shoulder massage if they're feeling tense, coming home with a bottle of their favorite wine and a listening ear if they've had a rough day that they want to talk out.

That said, my love language is Acts of Service*, and not all ESTJs have that love language (I assume), so... take this with a grain of salt.


*took me for freaking ever to figure this out, because it doesn't manifest as doing chores for people, which always seems to be the typical example. it manifests as doing small things for people that I know they appreciate and that I know will matter to them.

This actually sounds like a common theme or love language of Te doms/auxs. Have you come to notice this as well?

I like what you've described btw, and I feel like I would very much pick up on these sorts of things in a relationship. I'm typically taking care of my own things and don't like to bother others for help, even if I need it, so when others take the time out of their schedule to do something for me or help me out, I notice

 

[Merced]

For me, the vulnerability issue comes from what I assume is a fear of rejection and/or the idea that someone would capitalize on it. I'm sure inferior Fi (or just bad handling of introvert functions in general in my case) could hold some responsibility for that, but I'm sure it's more of an e2 thing on my part.

I'm very feedback oriented. I can't really deal well with being left in the dark about my performance. And I especially can't deal with not knowing how my partner feels about me. My love language is Words of Affirmation with a secondary of Acts of Service. I suppose this is a Te sort of thing. I want direct communication and constant updates. Tell me you love me, tell me when you're upset with me, tell me when your sad, and tell me often. I don't have the emotional capacity for the type of guesswork that involves feelings, seeing how insecure I can be about this very thing.

That, paired with my inability to stop myself from volunteering for people, has lead to many one sided relationships. I'm bad at guesstimating how much value people see in me, so I'm either 110% all in or pretty distant.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] [MENTION=1180]miss fortune[/MENTION] [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

What sort of chaos are we talking about here? I have like three potential understandings of "chaos" that can be used here, gotta figure out which one to use haha

Internal chaos? Emotional or mental, plans falling apart last second, external chaos like a huge earthquake hits or something? etc.

I was referring mostly to external chaos: crisis situations, leadership vacuums where no one is sure what to do, loss of old structure with nothing new to replace it, etc. The chaos of the situation is real for me, too. When I am able to harvest something from it, that is usually because I have some goal independent of simply quelling the chaos. I can take advantage of the lapse of customary limitations and bindings to prod enough things in my preferred direction to accomplish some goal of my own.

Mental chaos, on the other hand, is untenable. Emotional chaos is ignorable.

This actually sounds like a common theme or love language of Te doms/auxs. Have you come to notice this as well?

I like what you've described btw, and I feel like I would very much pick up on these sorts of things in a relationship. I'm typically taking care of my own things and don't like to bother others for help, even if I need it, so when others take the time out of their schedule to do something for me or help me out, I notice

What are you saying is a common theme? My first love language is quality time. If I care about you, I will give you my undivided attention, and more than infrequently. I will make space for you, your needs, your desires, even your whims, in my life. This creeps into my second language: acts of service. For me, this covers everything from being willing to drop everything if you need help, to those thoughtful acts [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] mentions.

 

[miss fortune]

external chaos is the biggest thrill... when everyone's running around like chickens with their heads cut off, I feel calm and in control of the situation... chaos is where I shine

mental/emotional chaos is one of those things that I've just learned to live with not my favorite thing, but it could be worse!

 

[EJCC]

external chaos is the biggest thrill... when everyone's running around like chickens with their heads cut off, I feel calm and in control of the situation... chaos is where I shine

This is always what I've envied most about ESTPs.

 

[Luigi]

This is always what I've envied most about ESTPs.

On the outside, I maintain composure in chaos. On the inside, I'm freaking out. Chaos is a danger to everyone.
I often don't know what to do at first, I need some time and order to make decisions necessary to resolve the problem(s).

 

[miss fortune]

This is always what I've envied most about ESTPs.

and I very much envy the stability that ESTJs can project without even trying... you guys are like the foundation upon which the world is built

On the outside, I maintain composure in chaos. On the inside, I'm freaking out. Chaos is a danger to everyone.
I often don't know what to do at first, I need some time and order to make decisions necessary to resolve the problem(s).

I've found that when I stop and think the magic dies... it lives in the moment

 

[Luigi]

I've found that when I stop and think the magic dies... it lives in the moment

Well apparently I'm not in the moment.

 

[Luigi]

Hmm, so I'm wondering if I'm core 3 or core 8. I'm also wondering about my instinctual variant.

Most people say I'm so/sp - and I only mention that because I often think sp/so, but I'm not sure.

My question for anybody here, regardless of type, is as follows.

Would you like to give me some help with determining the truth, even if all you do is offer an opinion without any explanation?

 

[EJCC]

Well apparently I'm not in the moment.

Hah. ESTJ it is - I'm convinced.

 

[Luigi]

Hah. ESTJ it is - I'm convinced.

Before you posted that, I changed it on my avatar, profile, and signature.

 

[miss fortune]

Hmm, so I'm wondering if I'm core 3 or core 8. I'm also wondering about my instinctual variant.

Most people say I'm so/sp - and I only mention that because I often think sp/so, but I'm not sure.

My question for anybody here, regardless of type, is as follows.

Would you like to give me some help with determining the truth, even if all you do is offer an opinion without any explanation?

as far as so/sp differentiation goes...

if you did something reprehensible, would you fear that people would never look at you the same the most, or that you would lose the lifestyle you'd cultivated?

also, if you'd like, I can make you your own type thread

 

[Luigi]

as far as so/sp differentiation goes...

if you did something reprehensible, would you fear that people would never look at you the same the most, or that you would lose the lifestyle you'd cultivated?

also, if you'd like, I can make you your own type thread

Actually the only thing I would fear, would be the consequences, which is more pertinent to lifestyle than acceptance.

So despite my initial uncertainty, I did arrive at the answer.

Every time I do that, I get a lot of feedback from a lot of people that I don't like.
We can discuss it in messaging, but I decided no more threads about it.

 

[Digital Lion]

Hey there, I think you're great! The fact that you've effectively and efficiently maintained this thread for close to a decade is a testament to your type! lol And I'd also like to hear your perspective on an ESTJ related inquiry, if possible.

My stepdad is an ESTJ that, due to health concerns (a wonky hip + surgery), just recently handed over his successful business of 30 years and altogether, I think he's having a really tough time coping and my family is concerned. It seems like he's become a bit more reclusive lately, in between spurts of (what I perceive to be) gushing hyper-emotionality (intense anger, sobbing when he thinks he's alone) that he's rarely ever exhibited before; to boot, he comes from a generation where such behavior isn't the norm (which may exacerbate feelings of shame) and actually seeing a therapist is definitely out of the question (though he is a man of faith).

He and I are bonded via our mutual Te-Fi, and so I can readily recognize, identify with and understand the almost compulsive desire to fix, do, direct, organize, solve, etc... and how mentally exasperating and neutering it can be to have these impulses stifled and disengaged, especially beyond one's own control. Whenever I've been super stressed, in between projects and/or careers, I've had mini existential "who am I, where am I going, what's my purpose" type crises and I'm curious if ESTJs go through something similar when they feel cut off from the impulses that drive them. I've gathered that you aren't a male retiree (lol), but I'm wondering if there are things that can be done specific to ESTJs that might help lift them from a depressive funk?

Thank you.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=35774]Digital Lion[/MENTION] When I'm in a similar funk, oftentimes what I need is a reminder that I'm capable and skilled and productive and therefore worthwhile - so what helps me is not just keeping busy, but actually accomplishing things I'm proud of. Does your stepdad have new projects and things that he's taking on in the wake of handing over his business?

That said, most of this he probably needs to work through on his own. Feeling capable at other things is helpful, but at the same time, the only thing that can resolve that kind of grief and (I suspect) existential questioning is time.

 

[Digital Lion]

[MENTION=35774]When I'm in a similar funk, oftentimes what I need is a reminder that I'm capable and skilled and productive and therefore worthwhile - so what helps me is not just keeping busy, but actually accomplishing things I'm proud of. Does your stepdad have new projects and things that he's taking on in the wake of handing over his business?

That said, most of this he probably needs to work through on his own. Feeling capable at other things is helpful, but at the same time, the only thing that can resolve that kind of grief and (I suspect) existential questioning is time.

1.) At any given time, he has multiple projects going on simultaneously. But this is the first time in his life where he's really been forced to sit back, shut up and remain seated. Normally, if he's not directing or controlling something/someone, then he's using his hands (carpentry is his favorite "hobby"). Once he's a bit better (he's as strong as an ox and his doctors are pretty optimistic), he will still have plenty of things to do that both occupy his time and grant him a sense of fulfillment; he will never be a retiree in the true sense of the word. But I don't think he realized how much downtime he'd require and that his him feeling out of sorts.

2.) And I think you're right, time is the ultimate answer. But usually, he has "no time" and he likes it like that. He does a lot of good and is always helping people and I think his identity is very much so attached to that.

Thanks for your insight!

 

[EJCC]

1.) At any given time, he has multiple projects going on simultaneously. But this is the first time in his life where he's really been forced to sit back, shut up and remain seated. Normally, if he's not directing or controlling something/someone, then he's using his hands (carpentry is his favorite "hobby"). Once he's a bit better (he's as strong as an ox and his doctors are pretty optimistic), he will still have plenty of things to do that both occupy his time and grant him a sense of fulfillment; he will never be a retiree in the true sense of the word. But I don't think he realized how much downtime he'd require and that his him feeling out of sorts.

2.) And I think you're right, time is the ultimate answer. But usually, he has "no time" and he likes it like that. He does a lot of good and is always helping people and I think his identity is very much so attached to that.

Thanks for your insight!

Phew - yeah, that's rough. I guess the most you can do is encourage him in his non-work tasks and let him know you're around if he needs to talk. Beyond that, it's an internal battle, and I don't envy him (especially if he's not used to being alone with his thoughts - and it sounds like he's not). I hope he gets through it okay.

No problem, and glad to help

 

[Sil]

Is it just my subconscious or do you think estjs have to adopt more responsibility than most at a young age? I admire them for a sort of grace under pressure especially in professional situations, but I think they can be a bit lacking in vulnerability for romance.

1. Don't know for anyone else, but I did not have more responsibility growing up than most children in my socionics economic range did.

I did, however, take some things far too seriously.

2. I lack in romantic vulnerability. Maybe for some that's charming?