[Traditional Enneagram] Ask a 4!

[Gawain]

I could be wrong, but according to theorists, image types primarily deal with shame. It doesn't look like typical shame, though. So what is it actually like for 4s?

No idea. I don't really think of myself as someone who feels shame often. When I do, it's because I've hurt somebody. So I do everything I can to rectify the situation and make sure I don't do it again. Problem solved. Now that I read that, I think maybe my 5 wing comes into play, here. At any rate, my 5 wing definately comes into play when I'm trying to figure out why the theorists in question name shame as a defining factor of 4s. I think about it a lot, and then I double-guess myself sometimes.

If someone criticizes you about something that you feel is unjustified, what is your inward/outward reaction? How do you process these kind of accusations? Or do you just let them pass?

It really depends on the person and how much I've already dealt with that day. I work in customer service, so I'm used to being an emotional punching-bag. Generally, I can take anything and it has little effect. After a long week of hell, anything might be the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't internalize it if it's a stranger, though. I explode, and everyone knows exactly my thoughts and feelings on the subject when I blow.

As far as family and close friends, I will be indignant and argue. But I will also overanalyze their perspective to learn as much as I can about my possible shortcomings. Can't fix it if you don't know what's broken. And if it's not me that's broken, their perception is. So either way, I find the problem and work to rectify it. With varied success.

Can this

Magazine: Life and death along the Thai-Myanmar border - Al Jazeera English

get you out of "woe is me" and if so for how long? :hi:

Dear lord, NO! If anything, that puts me into a "woe is me" state. When I do the thing that other types call "self-pity", it's usually a reflection on my feelings on the state of evil in the world at large. Whether I am on the recieving end of that evil is really incidental. Usually, the reason I am more likely to notice evil when I am on the recieving end is because I'm ridiculously oblivious to the world around me. I'm working on that. But it's hard to remember to pay attention to what's going on around me when I'm doing all this self-work and trying to grow at the same time. Just one of the paradoxes of trying to be a good person, I guess.

 

[Virtual ghost]

We're the heart of the enneagram. We'll love you and make you a song about it just so the next day we can throw the guitar in your face!
Ask us anything

How do you deal with very determined people ?

 

[MyCupOfTea]

I could be wrong, but according to theorists, image types primarily deal with shame. It doesn't look like typical shame, though. So what is it actually like for 4s?

No idea. I don't really think of myself as someone who feels shame often. When I do, it's because I've hurt somebody. So I do everything I can to rectify the situation and make sure I don't do it again. Problem solved. Now that I read that, I think maybe my 5 wing comes into play, here. At any rate, my 5 wing definately comes into play when I'm trying to figure out why the theorists in question name shame as a defining factor of 4s. I think about it a lot, and then I double-guess myself sometimes.

Could this be feeling ashamed of your own feelings which arise when you cannot enjoy certain moments like you "supposed to"? Instead of positive feelings you feel envious and feel like you aren't satisfied with your life even though everything should be fine. Is this SO instinct in the play or what?

 

[hjgbujhghg]

How do you deal with very determined people ?

There are different ways of being determined. 4s can be very determined if they deal with something they feel passionate about. I like people who know what they want from life. Dealing with agressive people is different though, I need to mention my peace, but that's probably the 9 in my tritype and also the Se polr thing.

 

[ImaFour]

I'm new to the Enneagram study, believe I'm correctly typed as a 4w5.
Here's my question/concern: I enjoy sharing about my new-found passion for the Enneagram and have interacted with lots of people who want to figure out their Type. But, when they read a bit, take a test or two, an astonishing (to me) percentage of people are apparently unable to Type themselves! Either they're all over the map and have no clue as to which Type 'fits' them, or they have decided that they like the description of, say, a Four, and insist that they are that Type, in spite of testing anything but a Four!
It's hard for me to understand, since it was unmistakable to me that, like it or not, I am practically the poster child for being a Four. So does it not always just click (as it did for me) when one reads the description of various Types? Or does it mean that the person is sadly lacking in self-awareness? Or that they are unwilling to be honest, for whatever reason? Or is it just 'normal' to have confusion until one has tried on various Types and lived with them for a while?
I've tried to figure this out myself and have come up with a half-baked theory that I'm pretty sure is not on target: since we all have emotions, people 'want' to be Fours since it seems attractive or 'special' to be a Four, and so having emotions means you ARE a Four.
I don't think I'm expressing this very clearly. I'd appreciate any input into this question.
Thanks.

 

[MyCupOfTea]

I'm new to the Enneagram study, believe I'm correctly typed as a 4w5.
Here's my question/concern: I enjoy sharing about my new-found passion for the Enneagram and have interacted with lots of people who want to figure out their Type. But, when they read a bit, take a test or two, an astonishing (to me) percentage of people are apparently unable to Type themselves! Either they're all over the map and have no clue as to which Type 'fits' them, or they have decided that they like the description of, say, a Four, and insist that they are that Type, in spite of testing anything but a Four!
It's hard for me to understand, since it was unmistakable to me that, like it or not, I am practically the poster child for being a Four. So does it not always just click (as it did for me) when one reads the description of various Types? Or does it mean that the person is sadly lacking in self-awareness? Or that they are unwilling to be honest, for whatever reason? Or is it just 'normal' to have confusion until one has tried on various Types and lived with them for a while?
I've tried to figure this out myself and have come up with a half-baked theory that I'm pretty sure is not on target: since we all have emotions, people 'want' to be Fours since it seems attractive or 'special' to be a Four, and so having emotions means you ARE a Four.
I don't think I'm expressing this very clearly. I'd appreciate any input into this question.
Thanks.

I consider myself enneagram newbie since I've started studying enneagram more in-depth just couple of months ago. The reason why I wasn't so into it before was because I probably was like your friends: "all over the place". I could relate almost every type at least in some level and none of the types gave me the "this!" feeling. The tests gave me 4 but also 1, 5, 6 and 9 depending on my current mood.

It wasn't until I read here on this forum that when figuring out your type you should focus on the core motivations and desires of each type. Exploring those things really opened the door for me what the enneagram is really about. I've obviously just scratched the surface but now I really feel like I know my type. I definitely do not see myself as a stereotypical 4 but that's what I am and it was so obvious after all.

What I'm saying is that the tests and some type descriptions fool you to think about the behavior instead of core motivations. This can be confusing. Also the health level, wings and other issues that I'm not so familiar with yet can influence the typing accuracy.

 

[Boogie man]

...

It took me about 3 years to find my type. One of my first reactions to seeing the enneagram was that I must be either a 4 or a 7, and that, even though I can recognize it in myself, I am absolutely NOT a 9.

...look how that turned out.

The main reasons it took me so long are that I couldn't fully see myself in the type; I don't consider myself to be conflict-avoidant or peace-seeking,
and also that I had a hard time admitting my strongest weaknesses to myself (even if I've never been particularly un-self-aware).


Oh, and I never test as a 9. The results usually give me 7 or 4. So in my case, the enneagram tests are very unreliable.

 

[ImaFour]

MyCupOfTea and Boogie Man,
Thanks for the input. it was naive of me to think that just because it just went "thunk" for me so quickly after a test and some reading, that it just had to be that exact same way for everyone. Duh! I won't do that again.
Merci beaucoup!

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I'm new to the Enneagram study, believe I'm correctly typed as a 4w5.
Here's my question/concern: I enjoy sharing about my new-found passion for the Enneagram and have interacted with lots of people who want to figure out their Type. But, when they read a bit, take a test or two, an astonishing (to me) percentage of people are apparently unable to Type themselves! Either they're all over the map and have no clue as to which Type 'fits' them, or they have decided that they like the description of, say, a Four, and insist that they are that Type, in spite of testing anything but a Four!
It's hard for me to understand, since it was unmistakable to me that, like it or not, I am practically the poster child for being a Four. So does it not always just click (as it did for me) when one reads the description of various Types? Or does it mean that the person is sadly lacking in self-awareness? Or that they are unwilling to be honest, for whatever reason? Or is it just 'normal' to have confusion until one has tried on various Types and lived with them for a while?
I've tried to figure this out myself and have come up with a half-baked theory that I'm pretty sure is not on target: since we all have emotions, people 'want' to be Fours since it seems attractive or 'special' to be a Four, and so having emotions means you ARE a Four.
I don't think I'm expressing this very clearly. I'd appreciate any input into this question.
Thanks.

In my experience, not being sure of one's type is normal. I don't think it's a lack of self awerness. People usually see different parts of themselves, different aspects of their personality and different styles of behaviors, sometimes it's hard to fit them all in just one box and be sure about it... there are so many options.

 

[Gawain]

Could this be feeling ashamed of your own feelings which arise when you cannot enjoy certain moments like you "supposed to"? Instead of positive feelings you feel envious and feel like you aren't satisfied with your life even though everything should be fine. Is this SO instinct in the play or what?

Not for me. I don't think about what I'm "supposed" to feel at all. Feelings are feelings. They just happen, and I let them. (Sx-dom) When I say I only feel shame if I've hurt someone, I really mean it. When I let someone down, and they tell me about it, when I yell and someone cries, that's when I feel shame. As for positive emotions, I feel more positive emotions than bad ones. If something negative happens, I can just go get a burger and soda and instantly be happier. (Assuming it's normal bad, not like someone dying or anything. Obviously bigger stuff takes more.) I never feel unsatisfied when life is fine. I enjoy it for the short time it lasts.

I've recently discovered my tritype is 417, so this might help. The shame I experience is when I am not meeting my standards of what makes a good person, so it has to do with 1. (Feelings don't count for me, actions do.) And the 7 in me drives me to go out and experience stuff, which makes me a much happier person than how most 4s portray themselves on here. 417s are the triple idealist, and I'm able to find the good in situations that sometimes seem pretty depressing to others. It can sometimes backfire and make me upset that things weren't as good as I thought, or other people let me down. But I usually manage to bounce back from that pretty fast.

I found a thread that explains me better than I knew myself! It's here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneatypes/66424-e4-instincts-relationships-shame-envy.html I'm a textbook Sx example, apparently. Just didn't realize I dealt with shame as much as I do.