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  1. #1
    brainheart
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    Default The e4 Instincts' Relationships to Shame and Envy

    What do people think it is, depending on the instinct variant?

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    could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"

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    I think social 4s are very much prone to feelings of shame and sexual 4s to envy.
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    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophiaDeep View Post
    I think social 4s are very much prone to feelings of shame and sexual 4s to envy.
    I was under the impression that the whole image triad deals with shame. I guess I was looking for something more along the lines of-


    Fours- how do you relate to shame and envy? How does this correlate with your instinct stacking?

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    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I experience very little shame, I'd say less than any type. Envy, I have, but it doesn't correspond very well to the English word. On a more surface level, I don't envy people, I envy their abilities, which I feel are assumable. I suppose on a deeper level, I have envied, and by this I mean I am constantly aware that others seem to feel fulfilled,while I feel empty, but I know this is a mirage. But envy is never the right word, because it doesn't produce anger in me or jealousy. It either produces determination or a calm melancholy.

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    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    On a more surface level, I don't envy people, I envy their abilities, which I feel are assumable. I suppose on a deeper level, I have envied, and by this I mean I am constantly aware that others seem to feel fulfilled,while I feel empty...
    I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-

    -people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
    -people who had parents who nurtured their talents
    -people with better style
    -people who are more socially skilled
    -people who have better voices
    -people who are musical prodigies
    -people who can write novels (and finish them!)
    -people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
    -people who are independently wealthy


    I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.

    How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:

    - Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
    - People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
    - Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
    - Socializing is superficial and stupid.

    You get the idea.

    The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..

    @SophiaDeep, I would love to hear how it is from the so/sp perspective, if you'd be willing to share.
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  7. #7
    brainheart
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    I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: http://www.angriesout.com/teach8.htm



    Shame is a fear-based internal state accompanied by beliefs of being unworthy and basically unlovable. Shame is a primary emotion that conjures up brief, intense painful feelings and a fundamental sense of inadequacy. Shame experiences bring forth beliefs of "I am a failure" and "I am bad" which are a threat to the integrity of the self. This perceived deficit of being bad is so humiliating and disgraceful that there is a need to protect and hide the flawed self from others. Fears of being vulnerable, found out, exposed and further humiliated are paramount. Feelings of shame shut people down so that they can distance from the internal painful state of hopelessness.

    Shame is a result of early developmental loss either real or perceived. It may begin in parent-infant conflict where there is possible significant loss or threat of loss of the child's basic security. The child longs for closeness with the mother and father. If there is rejection or love withdrawal from the parent, the child is left with intense, painful emotions. On some level, the beliefs of "I am unlovable" develops and a core of shame starts to build. Anna Freud described these experiences as happening before the child develops language and therefore are not remembered. These feelings of not being loved cause the child to rage and/or go into silent withdrawal. Experiences that cause shame alter the child's basic trust of others and are at the heart of dysfunctional behavior.
    Shame Equals the Global Inner Belief of "I Am Bad."
    Energy has to go somewhere. Negative feelings and thoughts are energy. If the powerful feelings are not discharged, they are stored in the body. They may be denied and forgotten, but they remain as a negative force and the person goes through life with a nagging belief of not measuring up. When there are many unresolved experiences of shame in a child's life, the self evaluation becomes global. The child has a core belief of "All of me is bad." The child with a large amount of shame who makes a mistake does not make a specific attribution regarding an event such as "I did this. It was wrong and I can correct it" but goes automatically to feelings of unworthiness. The child then substitutes another emotion or numbs himself to avoid feeling the shame further stamping in the belief of being inadequate and helpless.

    Scheff's theory is that shame causes a breakdown of the integrated self. The bypassed, unacknowledged pain is not available to be looked at due to the mechanism of denial. Dissociation and repression of the bad feelings allow distance from the shame with a cover up of "I am not this needy. This is not me. I cannot feel this vulnerable." Tension is discharged partially through substitute emotions but the core of shame grows even bigger as the individual engages in unhealthy behavior.

    Shame-Driven Behavior
    "Shame is the shaper of symptoms," said Donald Nathanson. The unacknowledged thoughts and feelings become repressed and surface later through substitute emotions and dysfunctional behavior. Other emotions are substituted to hide the shame and maintain self esteem. Anger, depression, exaggerated pride, anxiety and helplessness are substituted to keep from feeling the total blackness of being bad. The buried shame is expressed through defense mechanisms that shield negative unconscious material from surfacing.


    The typical shame response is a heightened degree of arousal and self consciousness. The person in emotional pain averts his eyes and his head goes down. New information is blocked. There is intense discomfort and muscular tension. The body collapses inward to protect the self and there is a shrinking of body energy. The skin may become flushed with embarrassment. There are feelings of inadequacy and the fear of self exposure. The person wants to shrink, hide or even die to get away from the painful feelings of mortification. These feelings are so excruciating that the child wants to avoid them at all costs.
    ^This sounds to me more like the social four response to shame. Maybe the fact that it is the 'typical' response is why the social four is considered the 'shameful' four?



    The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

    Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."

    The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.
    ^This sounds to me more like the sexual four response to shame.


    Shame and the Fear of Being Found Out
    The shame-prone individual's biggest fear is for others to find out how bad he really feels inside. There is denial of vulnerability, avoidance of negative feelings that are perceived as weak and an inability to be real. [...] Men who are frightened of feelings learn to wall others away through withdrawing, numbing their feelings and intellectualizing.
    ^I don't know why she says this is a male thing (definitely people of both genders do this), but I'd say this is more the self-preservation approach.

    Exaggerated pride allows the person to build up feelings of superiority again for the purpose of denying the global negative internal beliefs of "I am bad." The narcissistic individual reduces his own shame by feeling better than others; he elevates his status by putting others down.
    ^Again, sexual.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-

    -people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
    -people who had parents who nurtured their talents
    -people with better style
    -people who are more socially skilled
    -people who have better voices
    -people who are musical prodigies
    -people who can write novels (and finish them!)
    -people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
    -people who are independently wealthy


    I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.

    How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:

    - Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
    - People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
    - Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
    - Socializing is superficial and stupid.

    You get the idea.

    The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..

    @SophiaDeep, I would love to hear how it is from the so/sp perspective, if you'd be willing to share.
    This is interesting. I usually feel envy about people who have a better style than me as well. I can't stand it, when I see someone is dressed more originally than I am . But most of all I feel the envy to people who are more sucessful and progressive with their talents and works...at one hand I feel good for them, because I usually really can appriciate a good work, when I see it and I am happy when the people who created it are noticed for their talent, but at the other I usually feel like...ouch where did I went wrong.. I think I have more problems with shame after all... I am prone to think about what others might think about me and when I feel like they might not like me, or reject me for some reason it usually makes me feel almost worthless.

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    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    I wrote something some time ago about what envy means to me, and I'll put that up here as soon as I locate it.

    I'm really eager to read this thread all the way through, btw.

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    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
    Ha! This post made my day.

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