Actual 4 vs. 1 disintegrating to 4

[cascadeco]

In the event that you're a 1 - you identify pretty strongly with sp/so, right? If so, your focus would be on improving yourself and your environment, much more so than the people or systems around you. As a sp/so 1, I would probably identify more with "unstoppable compulsion to improve", than I would identify with the bolded - and I think the 1w9s I know irl would feel the same. They (sp/so 1s and 1w9 folks) can look like 5s, but it's not about learning for the sake of knowing, it's about learning for the sake of making yourself better.

Ah, instincts is a bigger can of worms for me. Were I a 9, sp/sx would probably be an easy call. As a 1? Eh, I don't know. I can just definitively say that I have never been the community organization / charity / network building sort.

 

[misfortuneteller]

EJCC was correct in her statement.

9s are externally focused and averse to introspection and do indeed base their identity on their relationships with others. They feel that others were born with something that they were not, but unlike 4s, they don't have an acute idea of what it could be. Similar to 5s, they have a sense of emptiness inside, and they avoid feeling that by merging with whatever their instinctual energy inclines them to merge with. Also like 5s, they prefer to stay in the background, but not to maintain distance like a 5, rather they just don't want to bring attention to themselves for fear of inviting criticism or judgement. Harmony is important to them because it reassures their fears that they aren't worthy of love, while negative attention can be quite uncomfortable and cause their avoided feelings to bubble up.

Even on this forum in the blog section, you'll rarely find a true 9 introspecting, and instead their focus will maintain fixation on those around them in their lives.

This wasn't the most fine-tuned description because I'm on lunch, but it's good enough.

Nope. This type of garbage is why INFP 9s keep mistyping as 4s.

 

[misfortuneteller]

To quote Enneagram Institute: “...However, what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves—a strong sense of their own identity. Ironically, therefore, the only type the Nine is not like is the Nine itself. Being a separate self, an individual who must assert herself against others, is terrifying to Nines. They would rather melt into someone else or quietly follow their idyllic daydreams.”

^ the source for my earlier post. And fwiw being out of touch with your own personality isn’t quite the same as not understanding it. You might get it and choose to disregard it.

Enneagram Institute is mostly nonsense as much i'd hate to say since I use to look up to Riso and Hudson. The enneagram is only about motives, integration and disintegration.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Nope. This type of garbage is why INFP 9s keep mistyping as 4s.

You're incorrect, and I think you're incorrectly typed, and I don't care to discuss with you further.

 

[Venus Rose]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] and [MENTION=17945]Stell[/MENTION]

Trying to understand the terminology you're using, I referred to this article: Egosyntonic and egodystonic - Wikipedia

and based on this, to my understanding of the enneagram, 4, 1, and 9 are ALL ego-dystonic. 4 has a very specific ideal self-image that they try to force themselves into because their "real" self is terrible garbage in their view.

not commenting on any arguments on this thread, but I guess I just wanted to say something on this...

I guess I don't see 4s inherently as "trying to force themselves into an idealized image," sounds a little unnatural to me, plus image types identify with their image, and as such "forcing an image" in that context seems kind of weird
then there's also this: 4 Wings — Enneagrammer

I don't agree with everything they say, but I think this is an ok snapshot view of the 4 wings
As a 4w5 at least, I identify with the "ugly" self image, and though an "ideal" does exist (how could it not) in my case even the ideal is affected by my fixation on ugliness/authenticity, as in, forcing myself to be an idealized version would feel inauthentic to me. In general though, I don't seem to "care much" for the idealized version due to over-identifying with my shadow side, or my "ugliness" (in quotes bc I don't necessarily think it's ugly per se but to illustrate the point that 4s are fixated on the less glittery, glamorous, and pretty aspects of themselves, others, and society in general)

that being said being that 4 is still an image type they might project this image in a way that draws people in (an image type, after all, wants to be loved).

hope that makes sense...

 

[Indigo Rodent]

I think it's thread of suffering and alienation. For 1 disintegrating to 4 it will be due to failure of the environment to meet the standards of 1, especially if these standards are reasonable. Being different, not fitting in because of the corruption of the environment, suffering because of constant contact with evil and being deprived of collective pride and sense of belonging.

Another thing is depression being secondary to rage. As in anger -> burnout -> depression. I think 1 may seek out 4-style masochism when rage gets out of control, when it becomes exhausting.

 

[FemMecha]

I just remember some guy who was supposed to be an expert talking about E4s and all I could think was that he was describing E1. The kinds of examples he gave that made think that included:

"E4s have to arrange the furniture exactly to their specifications, place it exactly where they feel it needs to go etc."
No, I would say that E4s will find some completely new way of relating to furniture that you haven't thought of yet. They might even keep moving it, or use a piano for a closet and a canoe for a dresser.

"E4s have to always have a touch of uniqueness. I remember this one E4 lady that would come to my lectures wearing all black, but with a colorful accent scarf because she needed to stand out and be unique". That sounds pretty standard to me like business sheik. It sounds like a tendency towards perfectionism and understatement.
Once again, I think 4s find unusual style that is at the edge of what is socially acceptable. Although I manage it in a more quiet kind of way, but I can't stand to copy what other people are wearing or obey fashion rules. I buy really interesting clothes at thrift stores from all time periods and I dress in a quietly unique way. Some more outgoing E4s will be more aggressive in their style, but it isn't one little dainty detail to stand out a little. It is the fundamental approach covering the whole of their relationship to clothing that is unique.

In summary, E4s do not have a touch of uniqueness and focus on making it perfect. Their underlying, fundamental approach is off-kilter from the norm.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

1s will suffer when things aren't "right", 4s have an attachment to suffering as a standard and have to learn to be more principled in their approach to life/being.

 

[FemMecha]

1s will suffer when things aren't "right", 4s have an attachment to suffering as a standard and have to learn to be more principled in their approach to life/being.

Two very different ways of relating to perfectionism. I think you said it well and it sounds to me like E1s need perfection to be attainable and E4s need it to be unattainable.

I will say that some of the talk about E4 and suffering I find dismissive. This is because life is suffering for most living beings. To have comfort is the anomaly, and so I see suffering as truth. I see society as sugar coating everything because it's easier than having the courage to take on exactly how painful reality actually is. Denial smile and shoot or the stars. Suffering isn't a game to me, but looking it square in the eye without blinking is another sort of unattainable goal I am driven towards. I find some descriptions read like the person who wrote them has grown up in a safe, comfortable life, with some challenges, but nothing that required reconstructing a sense of reality. When they describe E4s as melodramatic, dressing up in pain, treating suffering like a decoration, I want to stand on a mountaintop and scream until their brain unhinges and they break out of their safe little delusional world that the only true suffering that is embraced is that which is make believe or safely exaggerated. My sense of pain is not fake, their sense of comfort and security - that's what's fake.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

is[/B] suffering for most living beings. To have comfort is the anomaly, and so I see suffering as truth. I see society as sugar coating everything because it's easier than having the courage to take on exactly how painful reality actually is. Denial smile and shoot or the stars. Suffering isn't a game to me, but looking it square in the eye without blinking is another sort of unattainable goal I am driven towards. I find some descriptions read like the person who wrote them has grown up in a safe, comfortable life, with some challenges, but nothing that required reconstructing a sense of reality. When they describe E4s as melodramatic, dressing up in pain, treating suffering like a decoration, I want to stand on a mountaintop and scream until their brain unhinges and they break out of their safe little delusional world that the only true suffering that is embraced is that which is make believe or safely exaggerated. My sense of pain is not fake, their sense of comfort and security - that's what's fake.

I would rather say it's more of a sign of you not being a 4. Probably a generic effect of having Fi while living in this putrid world thing rather than anything Enneagram. The problem with Enneagram is that tests keep mistyping people basing on their MBTI types.
It sounds to me much more like core traits of 5 - knowledge and not wanting to be delusional (core fear: incompetence) with a strong Fi flavouring. It seems to me that you're treating pain as a form of knowledge of reality and want to avoid loss or distortion of that knowledge.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I would rather say it's more of a sign of you not being a 4. Probably a generic effect of having Fi while living in this putrid world thing rather than anything Enneagram. The problem with Enneagram is that tests keep mistyping people basing on their MBTI types.
It sounds to me much more like core traits of 5 - knowledge and not wanting to be delusional (core fear: incompetence) with a strong Fi flavouring. It seems to me that you're treating pain as a form of knowledge of reality and want to avoid loss or distortion of that knowledge.

Ravenetta is probably the best example of a 4w5 this forum has, and I know both the Enneagram and her well enough to say that.

Off with you, pest... shoo.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Additionally, 4s as an antipode on the Enneagram (a type that borders another center) often draw from type 5, either as a way to intensify their emotional experience or to dissect it in a detached manner. 4s of both wings do this but it is amplified in those with a 5-wing.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

Additionally, 4s as an antipode on the Enneagram (a type that borders another center) often draw from type 5, either as a way to intensify their emotional experience or to dissect it in a detached manner. 4s of both wings do this but it is amplified in those with a 5-wing.

I guess could be the wing influence. How do you distinguish between being a 4 and having dominant Fi, though?

Fun thing about 4 description is that it's probably based mainly on NTs, especially ENTJs and INTPs and may bear quirks coming from inferior or tertiary feeling.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I guess could be the wing influence. How do you distinguish between being a 4 and having dominant Fi, though?

Fun thing about 4 description is that it's probably based mainly on NTs, especially ENTJs and INTPs and may bear quirks coming from inferior or tertiary feeling.

Because being a 4 is all about attachment to suffering and identifying with the created deficit of self in comparison to what the 4 wants to be. That's not Fi at all.

 

[Tomb1]

Off-hand, both types have a tough time seeing things objectively and not prone to compromise on their viewpoint. However, 1s effect a pretense of objectivity - 4s fully inhabit/bleed/hemorrhage subjective-emotional states. Its much easier to talk a 1 out of an emotional state especially where's there's an added incentive...fours that's impossible. As 1s are typically achievement-oriented, low self-esteem in fours manifests as a habit of talking themselves out of taking action or always blaming others. Four's perceptiveness is richer and grasps vibrancy in details that would just look plainly cut and dry in the 1's more rigidly plain black and white outlook. Fours hate two-dimensionality. Also, when 1s are provoked, the trigger is reasonably obvious and predictably consistent. With fours, every thing has to be re-contextualized by whatever emotional state they happen to be embodying...what they laughed about yesterday, the next day provokes a major reaction, and nobody can figure out what set it off. Furthermore, 1s are idealistic, fours don't take ideals seriously....rejection of things like honor, pride, loyalty, duty, courage, good, evil typically means fours are usually the voice of negativity. Fours are content to let the world remain broken and go through life accepting their unlovability....1s want to make the world conform to their ideals.