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[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

Chthonic

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Jun 18, 2014
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683
I have seen both cases. For a long time I could only see myself as a 4w3. Despite the fact that I previously mistyped at 5w4 for many years.

Most people have very strong opinions on my wing - one way or the other - but it seems that almost everyone who knows me WELL, thinks it's 4w5, whereas my first IMPRESSION that I give off, is 4w3. I don't fit a classic sulky, depressive, isolated 4w5 description, but when I break down my deeper motives and fears it is more 4w5, and some of my deeper traits do match that description. I am wondering if my comparative "doer" and "in my body" nature is because of ENFP, and also 7 and 8 fixes, and I am in fact a 4w5 core.

4w5's have an edge. I wouldn't call it emo or depressive. I'm very outgoing in public (private is another matter) but I'm only outgoing so I can shove my personality up other people's noses. The four makes me want to be different and the five isolates me so I'm an island. My edge comes from not needing nor seeking the approval of others, and I frequently feel as if I've failed in my day if I haven't succeeded in polarising people.
 

Riva

Active member
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Jun 26, 2014
Messages
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KUJA
[MENTION=21883]sunyata[/MENTION] please tell us what you said regarding e4s on Vent. I would have said it but it's against the rules to reveal Vent conversations on the forum. It made us all laugh. Tehe!

Anyway, on a completely unrelated note to the above; the core desire of e4s - to create an identity - sounds like the healthiest desire compared to all other enneagram types - especially when being compared to others in the image triad. Yet they seem to suffer from melancholy the most. It doesn't make sense.
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,788
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I'd forgotten how close I am to the core motivations of the 5, but relate less to the provocative, polarizing tendencies of the 5. While those would have rung more true for my younger self (who found herself without a shred of doubt 4w5), as I get older I relate mostly to the parts of the 5 that make it quiet, being up in one's head. I always did, but they are becoming more noticeable as the other side calms down.

I mean the 5 that doesn't feel they know enough about something to participate or speak out, and can be compelled by these brief but piercing moments of inadequacy into tireless, private reading and practice that are never enough. When something provokes me, I want to learn everything about it, consider even becoming it. "Nobody knows how hard I work, but they will...when I'm done." Never having enough (avarice) to declare oneself "ready" to step into the fray, based on a false assumption that there wasn't enough to begin with and that my speech should be held to the same standards as formal publication. (That said, I've finally made a friend I can think aloud with, and it's worth it!)

I relate to the 5's tension between minimalism and the understimulation it causes. The tendency to stop needing things that inspire attachment, and subsequent flights of ideas that have nowhere to go. A craving for light, color and sound, so long as it doesn't have to get inside me until I say it's time (possibly never). I like to observe and orchestrate action from a distance, and I like to to tell myself the lie that these are real experiences. I like people. I see the best in them first, and I can enjoy the things they do - like an alien tourist might. With fascination spread over a taken-for-granted assumption that we're different species with different capabilities, and I will have to go back to my own planet soon or become a stranded homeless being.
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
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Messages
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4w5
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sx/so
Update: the above was onto something. There was a point to the 400 years of claiming a 5 wing. What I considered wing was the sp and so instincts instead, pressing at their usual, nearly-equal strengths. Little doubt here. It's clicked over material I should have looked at long ago.

Psst - if you're unsure about this, walk away from it and read up on everything but wing to sort out of your concept of your wing all the traits that are actually due to other things, such as variants or health.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,627
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'd forgotten how close I am to the core motivations of the 5, but relate less to the provocative, polarizing tendencies of the 5. While those would have rung more true for my younger self (who found herself without a shred of doubt 4w5), as I get older I relate mostly to the parts of the 5 that make it quiet, being up in one's head. I always did, but they are becoming more noticeable as the other side calms down.

I mean the 5 that doesn't feel they know enough about something to participate or speak out, and can be compelled by these brief but piercing moments of inadequacy into tireless, private reading and practice that are never enough. When something provokes me, I want to learn everything about it, consider even becoming it. "Nobody knows how hard I work, but they will...when I'm done." Never having enough (avarice) to declare oneself "ready" to step into the fray, based on a false assumption that there wasn't enough to begin with and that my speech should be held to the same standards as formal publication. (That said, I've finally made a friend I can think aloud with, and it's worth it!)

I relate to the 5's tension between minimalism and the understimulation it causes. The tendency to stop needing things that inspire attachment, and subsequent flights of ideas that have nowhere to go. A craving for light, color and sound, so long as it doesn't have to get inside me until I say it's time (possibly never). I like to observe and orchestrate action from a distance, and I like to to tell myself the lie that these are real experiences. I like people. I see the best in them first, and I can enjoy the things they do - like an alien tourist might. With fascination spread over a taken-for-granted assumption that we're different species with different capabilities, and I will have to go back to my own planet soon or become a stranded homeless being.

I relate more to the observer side than being iconoclastic also. I was even more that way when young, and with age, I see more 3 wing influence in myself, although not enough to claim it as my wing nor feel an equal pull. I still have more 5 issues affecting my life, as well as trouble making myself palatable (the harsher edge of the 5 wing, being so-last, Fe-tardation, wrong side of the bed because no right side exists as long as the other remains empty, etc). 3-wingers seem more in control of managing their charisma, perhaps due to being double image types (and it's something I ENVY). They seem less torn with striving for the ideal image and feeling like it's too much effort, so to aim low and preserve yourself for yourself, because you secretly suspect the world is very stingy too. 3-wingers seem to have more faith that if they give of themselves, then they will be rewarded.

I also think taking the alien observer perspective can turn combative when paired with certain instincts. I know I have that side, to stir it up for the sake of it (perhaps some 5 to 8 connection too - a sadistic pleasure), but it's not as active a force as [MENTION=22016]Chthonic[/MENTION] is making herself out to be (which may be due to her being sx-first).
 

Rambling

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From an enneagram profile that I don't own...

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".


4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.

This is amazing [MENTION=20856]grey_beard[/MENTION] thank you for pointing me to these threads. On I have read all through them I might feel able to join in the discussion... :)
 

vrusimov

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sp/sx
I looked up ENFP 4w5 today and this is what I found. I am wondering if there are any other ENFP 4s and if any are having wing confusion, and what a ENFP 4w5 would look like from more perspectives.


Here are a few tidbits from blogs I found today:

ENFP 4s vs. ENFP 7s
If you run into a less extroverted ENFP, it’s likely that he is a 4 with a 5 wing (4w5), because they are drained from being out in the world and hide inside their own heads. An ENFP who is a 4 with a 3 wing (4w3), on the other hand, is energized by intense experiences, which is just like a 7.
That’s where the confusion with identification begins. 4w3s and 7s may both be very hyper, but there’s more emotional involvement from the 4. And a 4w5 may seem like a healthy 7 when he is able to quickly learn a great deal of knowledge, since a 7 integrates to a 5. When the 4w5 is unhealthy though, he resembles an absent-minded, spontaneous 7. One has to sort through the similarities and get to the differences.

______
All in all, as an ENFP 4w5, I see you as an energetic, honestly outgoing person who has a big heart and interest in pretty much everything! You’re not afraid of your emotions and you take things as they come.
_________

being an ENFP 4w5 is a strange thing for me because it’s a combination of crazy extroverted intuition and introverted feeling that means i’m driven by my own morals+principles and see connections in almost everything, then always having this conflict of moodily wanting to be unique and having this weird thirst for knowledge and learning. it’s like being an NT and an NF at the same time i don’t know what that’s about. Any other ENFPs find their enneagram odd?

As an extremely introverted 4w5 sp/sx, I just don't see ENFP being in the PIT of the Enneagram. There is a difference between being out in the world and withdrawing versus withdrawal that pervades and epitomizes the day to day disposition of a 4w5. 4w5 can look into the macabre/surreal and not become unhinged at what is to be found there...only fascinated.

The second quote made me laugh, as introversion more or less attenuates "doing", "going" and "energy". Under the full-blown influence of Ni, an introverted Ni-dominant will feel like the world has become a time machine, where the subject alternately "wakes" and "sleeps" through days. On my week off from work, the world can just simply disappear and I wonder where all the time goes. I don't really want (too much) for companionship, but I could make a place for the ONE...hate cellphones and I'm really content with immersion in hobbies, interests and fitness. I even hit my dating sites, use my Derma-stamp and throw on my best short-sleeve blazer, should I decide to see a show...one of the reasons I don't quite fit 5w4, even if I can identify with both the wing and 5 core issues.

I am disconnected from both parents or at the very least ambivalent. Object relations are Frustration oriented. Emotions are reactive, in accordance with Duniho. "Smaller than the world" in Horney's Directional Theory. Have a tendency toward a Lamenting-Dissertation type talking style. Sado-masochism in accordance with the 4 sp/sx/so functional theory. I suffer, seethe, rinse and repeat until I have fully realized martyrdom. I will push-pull and VERY carefully guard my self-image once I feel even the slightest wiff of rejection or misunderstanding. People I idolize and like are a measuring stick...and I don't have to tell you how THAT goes!

4w5 will seek out intense experiences mostly in the inner world not the outer one, which is different from 7's. A 4w5 under the intoxicating influence of avant-garde music, a new theory, or an especially outre movie will have all the mental stimulation needed to mollify and placate the senses. "Spontaneous" is not a moniker that can be attached to this type with but few exceptions, and especially not under duress. Depression is more likely...and lots of sleep.

4w5 is one of the most internally convoluted types...I feel both delicate and strong at the same time...like a paradox. There is something about me that will always be "precious" and there is something about me that will always be "granite". I think perseverance is the biggest part of it but I don't think I will ever reconcile the two...they seem light years apart. "A Christmas Carol" is my all-time favorite story because of what I feel is the most powerful transformative device known to humans...redemption. We can take the not so great part about ourselves and transcend. Call it "self"creation.

Just a thought on some of the irregularities regarding similarites between 4w5 and 7. My best friend is likely a 7, so I might have some experience with the type.
 

Animal

Blood of the Exile
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Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
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SeFi
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4w3
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
4w5's have an edge. I wouldn't call it emo or depressive. I'm very outgoing in public (private is another matter) but I'm only outgoing so I can shove my personality up other people's noses. The four makes me want to be different and the five isolates me so I'm an island. My edge comes from not needing nor seeking the approval of others, and I frequently feel as if I've failed in my day if I haven't succeeded in polarising people.
Haha. I can relate to most of this. I don't even care enough about people to have to polarize them all the time, but I definitely have a polarizing personality. For instance it seems I'm the only conservative-minded person in my age range within 100 miles of my area, and I hold strong to my views despite the tremendous pressure to be another way. I've had bosses turn on me, band members quit, fans stop coming to my shows, professors pressure me and roommates stop paying rent because I don't agree with certain liberal views. Then I end up pissing off classical conservative folks as well because I am agnostic, pro-choice and pro gay marriage. I also have a separate facebook page for my male alter-ego and he likes to enchant women with off-beat, slightly lewd and slightly romantic comments. Though he isn't dishonest. He accepts friend requests from strangers but never responds to their PMs, and never flirts with anyone who doesn't know that it's me. I am feminine but I pull off a really sexy guy in photos & videos. ;D This serves to half annoy and half amuse boyfriends over the years. I consider it a social experiment. People know its me, but they forget over time. If I photoshop a picture with five of myself in the picture, people say WOW amazing photoshop skills! And they forget all the pictures of me pouncing my male alter-ego.

I'm still currently leaning toward 4w3, I think? But thanks to anyone who responded to my question - I'll get back to this with more depth when I have a bit more time. Awesome answers.
 

Starry

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6,103
As an extremely introverted 4w5 sp/sx, I just don't see ENFP being in the PIT of the Enneagram.

Thank you :hug:


4w5 will seek out intense experiences mostly in the inner world not the outer one, which is different from 7's.

I really appreciate your comments in this thread but wanted to make a quick correction ^^here…as the above is a misunderstanding that ends up creating ENFPs in the PIT of the enneagram...

I am a very introverted ENFP (Ne>Ni>Fi) 7 sx/sp. And sexual 7s are absolutely known to seek out intense experiences in their minds as opposed to the external world. They use their intricate internal worlds to distract themselves from their core wounds/pain...but not necessarily pain in general.
 

Fun in the Sun

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I wear a veneer that serves to protect the shame and humiliation I may feel by wearing my heart on my sleeves for all to see.
 

fetus

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Perhaps the 4w3 is a little more image-conscious, open, or humor-oriented? I've never met a 4w5, so I guess I don't really have any grounds on which to compare. :shrug:
 

Kullervo

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How can anybody honestly generalise in the way people have in this thread? If anything Enneatype colours MBTI; not the other way around.

Imagine an INFP (FiNeSiTe) and ISFP (FiSeNiTe) 4w5 from the same family were placed in a room together and interviewed. Would you expect them to describe their emotions in a similar way? Now imagine how tenuous it is to assume that random people on a forum, with little in common, can conform to type stereotypes. Environment and genetics combine to create a personality in a way we are yet to fully understand.

The only way the stereotypes could be justified is if we could find evidence that Enneagram is heritable. So far there is none.

I must stress that a 3 or 5 wing will express itself differently depending at least on whether the person is male or female, and their MBTI. I wish we took these factors into account more.
 
Joined
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Messages
106
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so/sx
4s re-organize themselves into something personal, and it stems from a desire to know themselves really well. Self-competence is stressed. It is stressed because they fear their endowments aren't what they seem; defective. If they re-organize their self-competence, i.e. know themselves, there's hope they can elude these fears, or prove them wrong. Ultimately they're only over-compensating.

4w3s re-organize in order to subordinate their endowments. They have an intimate sense of control, which presents as an authoritative instinct; confidence. For them influence is not something to prove. It's something to do. Re-organization is used to embody government; the ability to be in control of oneself. 4w3s deal with compensation more openly than 4w5s. When their self-doubt hints their authority is defective they counter it with controlling behavior, which can appear chaotic, non self-aware, contrived, impulsive and even dangerous in their efforts to feel 'real.' Lastly 4w3s act like the gut triad they face toward.

4w5s re-organize to prove they can control their endowments. Amidst the sense of inner promise there is immediate doubt of their sufficiency. They're prone to withdraw to process themselves, especially via retention. They counter feeling vulnerably unprepared, and thus unknowledgeable of themselves, by increasing their arsenal of proof; their skill set. Through cultivating skills they prove control over their inner-potential. The more reticent subtype, they downplay their struggles to others for fear that it will threaten the control they painstakingly aim to establish. Looking utterly embryonic is self-sabotage. 4w5s act like the head triad they face.

Main diff is 4w3s feel inherently powerful and 4w5s feel pressure to further develop their power. If being true to yourself means accepting your proneness not to be ideal, then both of them suck at it.
 

Forever

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[MENTION=7669]Auto/Virtuosi=L.A.P.[/MENTION]
You have a loooong username.
 

Forever

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Mostly a blissful hopeful. Now I'm a lovable cynic.

Well judging by your type, I'm sure you can change yourself to who you really want to be, like yourself 6 years ago, it's possible. Especially if it was before.
 

Blackout

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I feel like my personality is schizo sometimes
 

Blackout

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There is my natural authentic self, but I often feel like it's sort of nestled between this machine-type irrepressible urge to succeed or something, but it doesn't feel like something I can really negotiate, or deal with in a very rationale matter. It almost feels like some sort of evil spirit inside of me, that drags me through life; even when inside I feel like some sort of twisted distorted, and surreal landscape inside of my own person feelings and senses of self. It's like everything popular and happening in the world is splashed on my face, and I sort of half mold myself to it, even though in many ways I hate and despise it.

I guess, it's sort of like I've spent a lot of time trying to mimic Fe then I have realized. But it's almost too much at times too, and I feel overwhelmed, and afraid. And I hate how fake I feel all of the time. I spend hours scrutinizing my appearance and how I come off to people, or seem. I guess trying to craft a persona that reflects how I feel inside. But mostly I always feel like I am fighting with my self all of the time. It sort of feels like you're always walking in an escalator. But then I feel like a 5 sort of too, so I dunno.

But then I guess deep inside, there is this constant need for perfectionism that I can't fight with, or fear of failure, too. It's kind of ruthless.
 
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