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[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

Bubbles

See Right Through Me
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
I'm curious, what do you perceive to be the greatest differences between the two 4 enneagram wings? I notice there's a greater prevalence of 4w5s here, and that therefore lots of the 4 discussion revolve around that mindset. I only know of two other 4w3s here, really! (AyoitsStepho and Lauren Ashley ;))

Thoughts?
 

Edasich

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2007
Messages
192
Enneagram
4w5
I don't know, but I'd be interested to find out. My mum and sister are 4w3s and i'm 4w5. They are more ambitious, motivated and outgoing than me. I am more introspective. And more emo (jk :p).
 

TheEmeraldCanopy

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
280
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
Another 4w3 here. (INFP) :hi:

I would also like to better understand the differences.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
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9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
From an enneagram profile that I don't own...

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".


4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
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May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
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sx
4w3 = drama, performance, outgoing edge to the 4

4w5s are more introverted I think.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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sp/sx
I always test 4w5 and I relate to both 4 and 5 profiles (and sometimes test 5), but from BlackCat's description above it makes me question if I am more 4w3.

I relate to this:
their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style.

And I feel a huge sense of dichotomy in myself.

However, I do not relate to 3 descriptions on their own in the slightest, and I test pretty low on 3....
 

Bubbles

See Right Through Me
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,037
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w3
I always test 4w5 and I relate to both 4 and 5 profiles (and sometimes test 5), but from BlackCat's description above it makes me question if I am more 4w3.

I relate to this:
their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style.

And I feel a huge sense of dichotomy in myself.

However, I do not relate to 3 descriptions on their own in the slightest, and I test pretty low on 3....

Heh, I thought I was 4w5, but then I read 5 descriptions and realized they don't suit me at all. 3 was the opposite experience. Profiles can be misleading. :laugh:
 

ayoitsStepho

Twerking & Lurking
Joined
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4,838
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so/sx
Si, I'm a 4w3 like Bubbles :hug:

The information blackcat posted makes alot of sence. I can say that makes alot more sence right now in the fact that I don't know who I am. I think this is so, because we can put on masks to fit in. If anything, we're probably really good at it. Which is suckish for me in identifying myself. If you've spent your whole life being different people so you can fit into different situations, you don't know WHO you are. Thats how it is for me.
And its not because we want to screw people over and be fake. Its because we need the closeness to people and if they see we're actually not like them, we feel we could be dismissed and maybe even scoffed at. I've never felt like I relate to people and at my inner core, that is what I deeply desire.
Its weird too because I feel like I need others to tell me who I am because I dont know...and yet I'm putting on different personalities so they really dont see me.
And yet, I fear that if I do share my soul and heart with someone....they wont want me. I suppose that is why I tend to put a smile on and just go with it, but alone I'm one of the saddest people.
 

Thalassa

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Si, I'm a 4w3 like Bubbles :hug:

The information blackcat posted makes alot of sence. I can say that makes alot more sence right now in the fact that I don't know who I am. I think this is so, because we can put on masks to fit in. If anything, we're probably really good at it. Which is suckish for me in identifying myself. If you've spent your whole life being different people so you can fit into different situations, you don't know WHO you are. Thats how it is for me.
And its not because we want to screw people over and be fake. Its because we need the closeness to people and if they see we're actually not like them, we feel we could be dismissed and maybe even scoffed at. I've never felt like I relate to people and at my inner core, that is what I deeply desire.
Its weird too because I feel like I need others to tell me who I am because I dont know...and yet I'm putting on different personalities so they really dont see me.
And yet, I fear that if I do share my soul and heart with someone....they wont want me. I suppose that is why I tend to put a smile on and just go with it, but alone I'm one of the saddest people.


I'm a 4w3, too. So can I get in on these hugs? :hug:

I relate to having "different personalities." I've literally created dramatic presentations of a stage self - which is an extension of my real self, not a completely make-believe character, so is a bit different than playing a role in someone else's play - for work I've done. Thinking about that makes me question if Eminem is a 4w3...I know Boy George is.


I have two sides to me, for sure. I'm also a Gemini, which may explain that as well...
 

ayoitsStepho

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so/sx
I'm a 4w3, too. So can I get in on these hugs? :hug:

I relate to having "different personalities." I've literally created dramatic presentations of a stage self - which is an extension of my real self, not a completely make-believe character, so is a bit different than playing a role in someone else's play - for work I've done. Thinking about that makes me question if Eminem is a 4w3...I know Boy George is.


I have two sides to me, for sure. I'm also a Gemini, which may explain that as well...

Oh of coarse! Hugs for all 4w3 sisters and brothers.
:hug:

Right, Its like we take a piece of our personality and make it bigger than life. Which can really work in the entertainment business I presume. :D
But in relationships it causes me to falter. One of my friends is always telling me that I'm like bi-polar or something. Of coarse I'm not, but I can switch my personality with the mood of the place and the people around me.
 

Lux

Kraken down on piracy
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
1,458
At first I also thought I was a 5w4, but after being more honest with myself I don't think I am, I only wanted to be because it's "intelligent" and that's how I want to be perceived. I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w3 :D.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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At first I also thought I was a 5w4, but after being more honest with myself I don't think I am, I only wanted to be because it's "intelligent" and that's how I want to be perceived. I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w3 :D.

That's interesting...I feel like I'd like to be perceived as 4w3, because it sounds more balanced and charming. 4w5 sounds cranky and depressed. I fear I'm more cranky than charming :D
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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I did some self-study of the Enneagram and it does seem I am 4w3 but everyone I speak to that knows about Enneagram, online and offline, says they don't think I am, and instead 4w5 or 5w4. These are people who know way more about Enneagram than I do, so I wonder. I feel strongly 3, 4, and 5, so maybe I have a balanced wing.

Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic. I don't see myself as that at all. Even in BlackCat's description, 4w5s are intellectual and introspective... as compared to 4w3 which is not? Hmmm...

I do relate to this part very much:
4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways...
 

Cassandra

Its time.
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,711
I always identified with 4w5 but reading those descriptions...I switch (yeah I know, this sounds familiar :alttongue:). I do the 4w3 thing for fun and games and in a big group, preferably when I'm feeling good about myself. Smokescreens and illusions, they're fun to play around with. But if I'm not in the mood, if people talk to me one on one, if I'm being serious,you'll find 4w5-like behavior in me...*ponders*
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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I always identified with 4w5 but reading those descriptions...I switch (yeah I know, this sounds familiar :alttongue:). I do the 4w3 thing for fun and games and in a big group, preferably when I'm feeling good about myself. Smokescreens and illusions, they're fun to play around with. But if I'm not in the mood, if people talk to me one on one, if I'm being serious,you'll find 4w5-like behavior in me...*ponders*

4w3 and 3w4 seem like ultimate chameleons. You could be 4w3 and 4w5 is just one of your facades.
 

Cassandra

Its time.
Joined
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I identify more with 4w5 though, inside. That's the one that costs me no effort at all, no energy. I'd say I use 4w3 to just have fun with, or feel the need to entertain people. That does however ask for a high price in energy.

How does that work for you btw? You utilize 4w5 in public, since everyone sees you that way? And how did you come to the conclusion that you were 4w3 even though you seem to identify more with 4w5?
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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I identify more with 4w5 though, inside. That's the one that costs me no effort at all, no energy. I'd say I use 4w3 to just have fun with, or feel the need to entertain people. That does however ask for a high price in energy.

That's how it is with me as well. 4w5 is the solitary me, 4w3 is my "sometimes" persona. And only with certain people or in a certain setting. But I'd add that there is a split between the 4w3 part and 5-ish part of me. It also depends on how I am feeling that day or moment .
 

Requeim

New member
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Apr 15, 2009
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wow, that was probably the best 4w description i have ever read :D

i already knew that i'm 4w5, but the thing about "staying true to yourself" really fits so great. I didn't even know it was part of the 4w5 description before, and yet i still find that it's one of my strongest traits i think :)
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
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Anyway, I despise 4w3 descriptions, especially in relation to 4w5. 4w3 is made out to be drama queen-ish, insincerely charming, and not thoughtful. Some descriptions even make it seem like 4w3's are mildly schizophrenic.

I feel the exact opposite. I like the descriptions of 4w3 better than 4w5, but I think that's the kind of person I'd want to date, not the person I am :D .
 

BlueinGreen

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
105
MBTI Type
INFP
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4w5
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.

Hahaha wow, whoever wrote that one certainly has a bleak outlook on 4w5's. But f*ck him, I'm gonna be myself if it kills me, amirite?
 
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