[Type 4] 4w3 vs 4w5

[Thalassa]

i wonder if beck hanson is an intp 4w3.

.

Omigod I love Beck.

 

[souffle]

Loving this thread. Just did a test and worked out I was a 4w3.

For me, I realized I was a 3 wing purely by accident. I also assumed I was 4w5, but when I brought up enneagram to friends, they kind of snickered a bit and were like, "So Ms. Competitive doesn't think she's a 3 wing. Riiiight."

It's very draining to be a 4w3 INFP. I'm a complete and total ham; I love being in the limelight if I'm acting in a show, or reading my stories to someone, or singing. I am an attention mongrel who tries very hard not to let her diva side show (because of course, INFPs *must* be modest ). My individuality just loves being praised. It's quite selfish, but I get a huge rush when I succeed at something I love--like writing--and sometimes I'll say "Oh, I'm surprised I got so much good feedback" but in my head my snarky little voice is saying "That's right, I got the best responses, take that, journalist lady on the left!"

It's not enough for me to express myself. I want someone to take note of it and like it. Of course, not all 4w3s are as immature in this department as me.

I never start creating something without thinking delightedly of the praise I may receive afterwards. I feel sorta guilty that I don't just create for the joy of creating, which would be the ideal. The trick is to make others think that I am this ideal; the independent artist who loves to express themselves, and not just an impersonator who secretly just wants others to acknowledge what an awesome artist they are.

 

[the state i am in]

for isfp 4s, is 4w3 or 4w5 more common?

 

[ayoitsStepho]

I never start creating something without thinking delightedly of the praise I may receive afterwards. I feel sorta guilty that I don't just create for the joy of creating, which would be the ideal. The trick is to make others think that I am this ideal; the independent artist who loves to express themselves, and not just an impersonator who secretly just wants others to acknowledge what an awesome artist they are.

:hi: Yeah....thats completely me too. I'm so horrible, lol.

 

[brainheart]

I never start creating something without thinking delightedly of the praise I may receive afterwards. I feel sorta guilty that I don't just create for the joy of creating, which would be the ideal. The trick is to make others think that I am this ideal; the independent artist who loves to express themselves, and not just an impersonator who secretly just wants others to acknowledge what an awesome artist they are.

wow. This hit home so much it's crazy. I always thought I was a 4w5, then I read Black cat's descriptions and began to have doubts. I don't really look down at people like that at all, which is what got me thinking nine. But I never felt the wings on that one, at all, especially after what bc said about desiring the opposite.

This, souffle... I was playing the piano this morning, imagining playing the piece I was working on at the moment for someone else and wouldn't they be impressed! The imagining got so in the way I totally screwed up!

My problem is I am crazy shy, like really self-conscious about performing for others. But it makes me feel soooo good if I get praise afterwards. And if I've had a couple of drinks I am completely in control of the conversation, telling as many unseemly antidotes as possible, etc- it's like I'm Oscar Wilde or something. And then the next day I'll be like, "Oh my God, who was that person?" I can be such a shapeshifter, often it's beyond my control.

Have you guys seen the movie Velvet Goldmine? I think that movie must be a 4w3, if you can type films. I love that movie with my whole heart.

 

[souffle]

:hi: Yeah....thats completely me too. I'm so horrible, lol.

:hi: Hi there.

wow. This hit home so much it's crazy. I always thought I was a 4w5, then I read Black cat's descriptions and began to have doubts. I don't really look down at people like that at all, which is what got me thinking nine. But I never felt the wings on that one, at all, especially after what bc said about desiring the opposite.

On looking down at people... it's a strange mix for me, of looking down at others, and revering them. I feel elite, special next to most other people, yet still desperately look up to them and hope for their approval.

This, souffle... I was playing the piano this morning, imagining playing the piece I was working on at the moment for someone else and wouldn't they be impressed! The imagining got so in the way I totally screwed up!

Hehe. I can't remember if I've done that before with flute or not, but I can definitely picture myself doing it.

My problem is I am crazy shy, like really self-conscious about performing for others. But it makes me feel soooo good if I get praise afterwards. And if I've had a couple of drinks I am completely in control of the conversation, telling as many unseemly antidotes as possible, etc- it's like I'm Oscar Wilde or something. And then the next day I'll be like, "Oh my God, who was that person?" I can be such a shapeshifter, often it's beyond my control.

Yeah, I'm shy too, but I think it's our desire for acclaim despite our shyness which is significant. In fact it could even play a role in it- wanting so much to appear super talented to others, and being afraid of not living up to our high standard, and being embarrassed if we don't? Maybe? Just an idea.

I wonder if alcohol would make me act cool too? This I shall have to investigate

Haven't seen Velvet Goldmine, what's it like? Worth watching?

 

[brainheart]

Yeah, I'm shy too, but I think it's our desire for acclaim despite our shyness which is significant. In fact it could even play a role in it- wanting so much to appear super talented to others, and being afraid of not living up to our high standard, and being embarrassed if we don't? Maybe? Just an idea.

So I was thinking about the whole 4w3 thing after being on here yesterday, and you just expressed my thoughts so well in this paragraph above!

Anyway, I was thinking about how well I did in school, how creative I was in school, etc, and how since I've been out, I really struggle to accomplish things. I thought it had to do with being a P, needing a schedule and all, but I think so much of it is my need for praise, for immediate feedback, for someone to tell me how talented and smart and cool I am.

For example, I've been writing this novel off and on for three years now. It's been more off than on as of late. And I think a lot of it has to do with this high standard I have for myself coupled with this need for praise. So I do a lot of self-doubt, and I think, ah, I'm not good at this. But if I were to be turning it in, in sections, as an assignment, and I had the prospect of a teacher potentially fawning over it, I think it would be a totally different story. I think I would have finished this thing two years ago. It kind of changes my attitude toward it now, thinking about this. It kind of makes me ready to kick some ass and get it done so others can see it.

YouTube - Velvet Goldmine Trailer

It's basically about David Bowie and Iggy Pop, although they are fictional characters, and it is loaded with decadent wonderfulness. Doesn't hurt that Christian Bale, Jonathan Rhys-Myers, and Ewan McGregor are in it, either. I love everything about this movie. The director, Todd Haynes, is one of my favorite directors. His I'm not there, about Bob Dylan, is also great: YouTube - I'm Not There Trailer

 

[psyche]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. And thank you, BlackCat, for posting that great description of 4w3. I particularly appreciate (and relate to) the explanation about the dichotomies.

I'm a 4w3, and have a number of 4w3s in my life. We've discussed how we use our 3 wing as a way to cope with the heaviness and pain of being a 4. But we also feel that we're at civil war with ourselves...we tend to swing between the types that can feel incompatible. For example, the 3 in me is extraverted and likes to be out in the world. But the 4 is introverted, and wants to stay inside and snuggle up alone with my partner.

I also find that, as a sx/so I tend to be more 4 when I'm in a (happy) relationship, when the sx instinct is fulfilled, and more 3 when I'm unhappy in relationship or single.

One thing I don't relate to in the description is the "lightness" of 4w3. I don't experience this AT ALL. My 4w3 friends and I are intense, struggle with dark thoughts and moods, and I'm an academic who's attracted to depth of knowledge and understanding. 3w4 is a "light" type to me, but not 4w3.

Also, we don't really seek out attention. One one level, we want to be creatively or intellectually witnessed and appreciated. But we're also quite self-conscious and can't spend too long in the spotlight. So, there's that dichotomy again.

Interesting thread!

 

[souffle]

For example, I've been writing this novel off and on for three years now. It's been more off than on as of late. And I think a lot of it has to do with this high standard I have for myself coupled with this need for praise. So I do a lot of self-doubt, and I think, ah, I'm not good at this. But if I were to be turning it in, in sections, as an assignment, and I had the prospect of a teacher potentially fawning over it, I think it would be a totally different story. I think I would have finished this thing two years ago. It kind of changes my attitude toward it now, thinking about this. It kind of makes me ready to kick some ass and get it done so others can see it.

YouTube - Velvet Goldmine Trailer

It's basically about David Bowie and Iggy Pop, although they are fictional characters, and it is loaded with decadent wonderfulness. Doesn't hurt that Christian Bale, Jonathan Rhys-Myers, and Ewan McGregor are in it, either. I love everything about this movie. The director, Todd Haynes, is one of my favorite directors. His I'm not there, about Bob Dylan, is also great: YouTube - I'm Not There Trailer

Hey, good luck with that novel. I'm glad you've found motivation here.

I'll definitely check the movie out. (Have already seen I'm Not There )

One thing I don't relate to in the description is the "lightness" of 4w3. I don't experience this AT ALL. My 4w3 friends and I are intense, struggle with dark thoughts and moods, and I'm an academic who's attracted to depth of knowledge and understanding. 3w4 is a "light" type to me, but not 4w3.

I think the 'lightness' refers more to our external behaviour. For me anyway, I may be really intense and take myself very seriously deep down, but when I'm dealing with others I'm often very frivolous and silly. I think that deep down, there's this worry that no one would like my serious, heavy self, so I try and impress them instead with humour and easygoingness. But this behaviour doesn't make me any less dark or intense- we are still 4s, after all.

Also, we don't really seek out attention. One one level, we want to be creatively or intellectually witnessed and appreciated. But we're also quite self-conscious and can't spend too long in the spotlight. So, there's that dichotomy again.

Sure, we might not go out of our way to seek attention in a direct, immediate "Hey look at me - right now!" kind of way. But deep down, we want to be acknowledged, and this helps us overcome our self consciousness (and for my part, laziness) and achieve or create something that will get us recognised.

 

[Bubbles]

I also find that, as a sx/so I tend to be more 4 when I'm in a (happy) relationship, when the sx instinct is fulfilled, and more 3 when I'm unhappy in relationship or single.

This sounds like disintegration actually! When unhappy, a 4 disintegrates into 2, and they therefore have unhealthy 2 tendencies. That can appear like 3, but in actuality 3s are more concerned with APPROVAL and IMAGE and 2s are concerned with LOVE and ACCEPTANCE. So that's why I think you're talking about disintegration here.

One thing I don't relate to in the description is the "lightness" of 4w3. I don't experience this AT ALL. My 4w3 friends and I are intense, struggle with dark thoughts and moods, and I'm an academic who's attracted to depth of knowledge and understanding. 3w4 is a "light" type to me, but not 4w3.

Well, that's odd. This sounds very 4w5. 4s are more likely to explore their darker side and puzzle through their emotions when utilizing the 5 wing. This leads to a much heavier and darker mood than the lightness of a 4 trying to express their creative side in an extroverted show of 3.

Also, we don't really seek out attention. One one level, we want to be creatively or intellectually witnessed and appreciated. But we're also quite self-conscious and can't spend too long in the spotlight. So, there's that dichotomy again.

For real? I totally do that. And in conversations with other 4w3s, I've noticed this flaw is quite common among us.

I'm curious, why do you see yourself as 4w3?

I think the 'lightness' refers more to our external behaviour. For me anyway, I may be really intense and take myself very seriously deep down, but when I'm dealing with others I'm often very frivolous and silly. I think that deep down, there's this worry that no one would like my serious, heavy self, so I try and impress them instead with humour and easygoingness. But this behaviour doesn't make me any less dark or intense- we are still 4s, after all.



Sure, we might not go out of our way to seek attention in a direct, immediate "Hey look at me - right now!" kind of way. But deep down, we want to be acknowledged, and this helps us overcome our self consciousness (and for my part, laziness) and achieve or create something that will get us recognised.

^ Definitely agree. To all the above.

 

[speculative]

I agree with Bubbles; some of that sounds more 4w5 than 4w3. However, I normally don't let my Darkside INFP out on the forums to roam free, so I may come off as more 3 when I'm really more 5...

 

[Lauren Ashley]

... But we also feel that we're at civil war with ourselves...we tend to swing between the types that can feel incompatible. For example, the 3 in me is extraverted and likes to be out in the world. But the 4 is introverted, and wants to stay inside and snuggle up alone with my partner.

One thing I don't relate to in the description is the "lightness" of 4w3. I don't experience this AT ALL. My 4w3 friends and I are intense, struggle with dark thoughts and moods, and I'm an academic who's attracted to depth of knowledge and understanding.

Also, we don't really seek out attention. One one level, we want to be creatively or intellectually witnessed and appreciated. But we're also quite self-conscious and can't spend too long in the spotlight. So, there's that dichotomy again.

I can relate to this more than pretty much anything else in this thread other than the posted description.

For real? I totally do that. And in conversations with other 4w3s, I've noticed this flaw is quite common among us.

How do you seek attention, exactly? Is it overt or more subtle? Can you describe a scenario?

Well, that's odd. This sounds very 4w5. 4s are more likely to explore their darker side and puzzle through their emotions when utilizing the 5 wing. This leads to a much heavier and darker mood than the lightness of a 4 trying to express their creative side in an extroverted show of 3.

I agree with Bubbles; some of that sounds more 4w5 than 4w3. However, I normally don't let my Darkside INFP out on the forums to roam free, so I may come off as more 3 when I'm really more 5...

I could really relate to that part, and I'm still trying to decide between 3 and 5 (kind of, I'm leaning towards 3). So can I get some clarification on this: does the 3 wing bring a distinct lightness to the 4 while the 5 brings darker moods and interest in working through emotions? I was under the impression that heavier moods was a 4 characteristic in general, and that the 3 wing alleviated this a bit, but not much because at the core the 4 is still a 4 and needs to explore the depths of their feelings.

 

[Bubbles]

How do you seek attention, exactly? Is it overt or more subtle? Can you describe a scenario?

Hmm, both I s'pose. I try to make it seem like the other person's idea. I start talking about something with the person--like, maybe about writing, or music--and then I mention something I have done or am doing. And if I drop enough hints, I'll get asked to show it to them sometime or where it is I'm performing. And since it's THEIR idea, I feel no shame in sharing anything with them.

...Of course the whole time it's been my goal to do that.

Also I have an irrational jealousy of other people's accomplishments. If I'm in a choir and the soprano girl is always always always singing the lead, I think to myself, "I would loooove to hear you sing the low notes. Really. In fact, if we had a lower song, I would be up there, not you."
And I glower at them the whole time and try to suppress this jealous feeling.

I also worry more about how my posts are perceived than whether or not I'm happy with them. I want my posts to be correct so that other people approve of them, not so that I'm intrinsically satisfied that they're right. That's the whole "image" thing that 4w3s have: they care more about how they're presented to other people than how they're presented to themselves. At the same time, their identity remains highly important, and as much as they'd like to, it's difficult for a 4w3 to act untrue to themselves for attention. Which invites plenty of inner conflict.

All of this isn't exactly mature 4w3 behavior, but it's my thought process, and I have to consciously suppress it if I want to think otherwise.

I could really relate to that part, and I'm still trying to decide between 3 and 5 (kind of, I'm leaning towards 3). So can I get some clarification on this: does the 3 wing bring a distinct lightness to the 4 while the 5 brings darker moods and interest in working through emotions? I was under the impression that heavier moods was a 4 characteristic in general, and that the 3 wing alleviated this a bit, but not much because at the core the 4 is still a 4 and needs to explore the depths of their feelings.

Well, you're right: 4s ARE dark in general. But a 4w3 is more likely to gloss over their bad things to portray them as good things to other people. A 4w5 would be more likely to sort through them and get in the icky gray areas to puzzle through them all. 4w3s keep their private struggles private. 4w5s are like, hey this is me and if you don't like it sucks for you because I'm me and that's what you get. Really, just read the two profiles of the 3s and the 5s. Which behaviors do you most often project?

Also, you could just be a balanced wing. And what BlackCat said earlier about how everyone is influenced by both wings also rings true here.

 

[BlackCat]

Also, you could just be a balanced wing.

Do you think that a "balanced wing" could possibly mean that both wings are somewhat weak, but have an affect on someone like a dominant wing would? Just sort of distributed between the qualities of both wings? I've observed that in people with "balanced wings."

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Hmm, both I s'pose. I try to make it seem like the other person's idea. I start talking about something with the person--like, maybe about writing, or music--and then I mention something I have done or am doing. And if I drop enough hints, I'll get asked to show it to them sometime or where it is I'm performing. And since it's THEIR idea, I feel no shame in sharing anything with them.

...Of course the whole time it's been my goal to do that.

Also I have an irrational jealousy of other people's accomplishments. If I'm in a choir and the soprano girl is always always always singing the lead, I think to myself, "I would loooove to hear you sing the low notes. Really. In fact, if we had a lower song, I would be up there, not you."
And I glower at them the whole time and try to suppress this jealous feeling.

Is that regular behavior, or does something spark that in you?

I also worry more about how my posts are perceived than whether or not I'm happy with them. I want them to be correct so that other people approve of them, not so that I'm intrinsically satisfied that they're right. That's the whole "image" thing that 4w3s have: they care more about how they're presented to other people than how they're presented to themselves.

I guess I care about both.

Well, you're right: 4s ARE dark in general. But a 4w3 is more likely to gloss over their bad things to portray them as good things to other people. A 4w5 would be more likely to sort through them and get in the icky gray areas to puzzle through them all. 4w3s keep their private struggles private. 4w5s are like, hey this is me and if you don't like it sucks for you because I'm me and that's what you get.

I definitely keep my private life private. And I generally don't discuss negative feelings, but I do sort through them on my own. I relate to the "this is me" attitude.

Really, just read the two profiles of the 3s and the 5s. Which behaviors do you most often project?

Also, you could just be a balanced wing.

I relate to both and for the longest time I was trying to decide whether I was 3, 4, or 5. I tested as 3 and 5 most often, but never 4. Then I read a few descriptions of the sx 4 and I knew that was me exactly, so I decided on 4.

I think that I am projecting 3, but maybe I am projecting 5. For example, I went to the library a couple of weeks ago where I picked up six Enneagram books to help figure this out (yes, this is serious bidness). One of the librarians saw the books and told me he was a fan of Enneagram and asked what type I was. I said 4w3 and he gave me a look and said "Are you sure? I thought you could be 4w5 or 5w4." So I don't know, maybe the balanced wing is for me or I'm just a 4w3 playing a role.

 

[Bubbles]

Is that regular behavior, or does something spark that in you?

Frankly, this happens quite often.

I guess I care about both.

Makes sense, both wings affect a person.

I definitely keep my private life private. And I generally don't discuss negative feelings, but I do sort through them on my own. I relate to the "this is me" attitude.

Y'know, 5s in general don't really discuss negative feelings either. For me, I don't want to intrude on people or bore them or have their opinion of me be tainted. If I know someone is willing to listen, I might share how I feel though.

I relate to both and for the longest time I was trying to decide whether I was 3, 4, or 5. I tested as 3 and 5 most often, but never 4. Then I read a few descriptions of the sx 4 and I knew that was me exactly, so I decided on 4.

Which is exactly why people can't rely on tests all the time.

I think that I am projecting 3, but maybe I am projecting 5. For example, I went to the library a couple of weeks ago where I picked up six Enneagram books to help figure this out (yes, this is serious bidness). One of the librarians saw the books and told me he was a fan of Enneagram and asked me what type I was. I said 4w3 and he gave me a look and said "Are you sure? I thought you could be 4w5 or 5w4." So I don't know, maybe the balanced wing is for me or I'm just a 4w3 playing a role.

Okay, I'm going to be honest, I think that's very 5ish behavior. A 4w3 would ask people, or be more willing to bend their opinions based on someone else's perception (note: this is why I changed from thinking I was 4w5 to 4w3). A 5 would be more concerned about competency and wouldn't accept someone else's opinion at face value. Simply considering it and being agreed with isn't enough for 4w5; you want enough validity to satisfy you, yourself.

 

[brainheart]

Hmm, both I s'pose. I try to make it seem like the other person's idea. I start talking about something with the person--like, maybe about writing, or music--and then I mention something I have done or am doing. And if I drop enough hints, I'll get asked to show it to them sometime or where it is I'm performing. And since it's THEIR idea, I feel no shame in sharing anything with them.

...Of course the whole time it's been my goal to do that.

Also I have an irrational jealousy of other people's accomplishments. If I'm in a choir and the soprano girl is always always always singing the lead, I think to myself, "I would loooove to hear you sing the low notes. Really. In fact, if we had a lower song, I would be up there, not you."
And I glower at them the whole time and try to suppress this jealous feeling.

I also worry more about how my posts are perceived than whether or not I'm happy with them. I want my posts to be correct so that other people approve of them, not so that I'm intrinsically satisfied that they're right. That's the whole "image" thing that 4w3s have: they care more about how they're presented to other people than how they're presented to themselves. At the same time, their identity remains highly important, and as much as they'd like to, it's difficult for a 4w3 to act untrue to themselves for attention. Which invites plenty of inner conflict.

All of this isn't exactly mature 4w3 behavior, but it's my thought process, and I have to consciously suppress it if I want to think otherwise.


Well, you're right: 4s ARE dark in general. But a 4w3 is more likely to gloss over their bad things to portray them as good things to other people. A 4w5 would be more likely to sort through them and get in the icky gray areas to puzzle through them all. 4w3s keep their private struggles private. 4w5s are like, hey this is me and if you don't like it sucks for you because I'm me and that's what you get. Really, just read the two profiles of the 3s and the 5s. Which behaviors do you most often project?

Also, you could just be a balanced wing. And what BlackCat said earlier about how everyone is influenced by both wings also rings true here.

Seriously... get out of my brain!

 

[Bubbles]

Seriously... get out of my brain!

Oh, that's a major relief to me that you agreed, actually. Which might be an example of 4w3 itself, haha.

 

[brainheart]

Oh, that's a major relief to me that you agreed, actually. Which might be an example of 4w3 itself, haha.

Yeah, no doubt... I've been waiting for your response!

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Okay, I'm going to be honest, I think that's very 5ish behavior. A 4w3 would ask people, or be more willing to bend their opinions based on someone else's perception (note: this is why I changed from thinking I was 4w5 to 4w3). A 5 would be more concerned about competency and wouldn't accept someone else's opinion at face value. Simply considering it and being agreed with isn't enough for 4w5; you want enough validity to satisfy you, yourself.

I haven't seen any 4w3 FJs as of yet, only FPs, so I wonder how that affects things as well. I don't really ever accept others' perceptions because I'm Ni dom. That wasn't the first time I've been told I'm probably not 4w3, but I could give examples that illustrate stereotypical 3 qualities. Like my penchant for fashion and desire to be a performer when I was younger. My last avatar was pretty 3ish too, I think.