[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

Before I begin, I should say that fidelia is absolutely right in what she said. Excellent points as usual.

Now...:

I prefer to not keep tabs on people and what they have or haven't done, so often I actually forget a lot of the ugly things people have done to me until someone brings it up.

I, too, would "prefer" not to do that, but I just remember everything without meaning to! Example: obnoxious songs on hit radio. I'll find, within a few weeks of my first listen of the song, that I'll have it completely memorized, and I'll sing along to the whole frickin' thing and then go "Oh god, what am I doing? I HATE this song!!" That was a petty example, to be sure, but it proves a point: that I never choose to remember things. I just do.

Do ESTJs find it difficult to validate or relate to how other's feel, even when they've explained it?

Well, we don't naturally empathize/sympathize with people. The only reason why I respond "correctly" to people's ramblings about their lives is that I've trained myself to do what (American) women do, i.e. gasp in the right places, nod constantly, etc. My instinctive reaction (which would be completely stoic and unemotional and getting straight to the problem-solving part) simply isn't acceptable in society (especially with women, and ESPECIALLY especially with NF women, who really don't want you to solve their problems when they rant at you). But I digress. Since your mom DOES obviously have some issues, she's a very different case from me (I'm pretty healthy, imho), but when people explain how they feel to me, I understand. And I think most ESTJs would, too. (We may be weak at feeling, but we aren't stupid.) But it doesn't mean that we'd sympathize, you know? We might, I dunno, not register the severity of what you're feeling, and we might (incorrectly) think of it as separate from the task at hand.

Essentially, this is exactly what I did as my blood boiled and my hair stood on end. She then hung up on me, which was kinda a relief because I was about to either implode or explode. I'm glad another ESTJ finds this to be an acceptable approach though.

Well, if you tried it and it didn't work, I guess it isn't acceptable... honestly, I think your tone must have done it. If your blood was boiling and you were showing it, nothing you say will have made a difference, because only the tone will have registered... and she will have seen it as disrespectful.

In the past, I've tried to "rationalize" with her by countering her, which never works.

OH no. No it doesn't. Countering is a VERY VERY bad idea. We register that as an attack. When you "counter", you make it personal, and therefore you bring emotion into it. When I say "rationalize", I mean "be uber-logical and calm and rational"... in other words, try and be an INTx for a bit.

And on disrespectful. I noticed that a lot of STJs use the word "respect" a lot. What does respect mean? I mean, I have my own thoughts, but it's nothing near what my mother has told me hers are. Ultimately, I think we want the same thing from each other. When we're out and about, we are great friends, but what keeps me from being able to fully trust her friendship is that she pulls the authority card whenever it's convenient to her.

I don't really think all ESTJs are like this, but a lot of ESTJ fathers probably are; that is, wanting to essentially be your boss, and not your parent. Maybe this isn't as much the case with you and your mom - again, I'm no expert on your family situation. But anyways, I dunno if, based on what you've told me, she just "pulls out the authority card whenever it's convenient for her". I'm seeing a very strong theme, actually. It's whenever you don't just do what she says without question. If you show attitude, or you question what she's telling you in any way, that's disrespecting her, in her mind. This might sound cheesy, but think of it like The Godfather (which, btw, is a VERY ESTJ movie). You may be friendly with the don, but would you show attitude? No, 'cause you'd get murdered!

That's a bizarre note to end on... but I can't think of much else to say. Just that I hope it helps a little.

 

[EJCC]

Ok, hi.

I want to preface this with a few disclaimers:

1) I know no ESTJs in real life that I’m aware of, and my understanding of them comes entirely from MBTI theory - and what I've seen tends to be a bit dismissive or even negative in tone. I'm also probably guilty of not having investigated this type thoroughly enough.

No biggie. I'm like that about many types, too - for example, I know absolutely NOTHING (from experience, anyway) about STPs.

2) I have not read this thread. Normally, I try to at least skim a thread to see what’s been said, but 50 pages is too much. So, if my questions have already been addressed, please forgive me and let me know.

Firstly, sorry about the length... I'm starting to feel guilty about it... I wish there was an index or something.
Secondly, your question is a new one! And a fun one! Pretty much the coolest one ever, in fact.

Now that that's done, my question is this: What do you love about being an ESTJ? What is awesome about being an ESTJ?

Because I think being an INTJ is awesome. And I imagine that all types must enjoy being their type, and must have a sense of what it is that they most fundamentally identify with in their type – and why fundamentally identifying with that/those component/s of their type is so…enjoyable, important, sufficient, and, well, awesome.

And, with some types that aren’t so far removed from mine, I can kind of understand what might be awesome about being that type. But, in the case of SJs, ESs and EJs, I find it a little bit difficult to really get a sense of what that might be. ESTJs and, even moreso, ESFJs, are the two types that I find it most difficult to really understand.

So…help?

No problem, man! Let's see now... here's what I like about my ESTJ-ness, that I can think of:

1. I'm DECISIVE. I'm a 6w7, and I'm STILL decisive (most of the time)! After I make a decision, I really don't look back.
2. I'm loyal to my friends and family, and even if I'm not exactly a counselor, if someone was mean to a friend, I'll... deal with the problem.
3. If I see something that needs doing, I go right up and do it. For example, if I see an animal that's been mistreated, I call the Humane Society immediately. This has happened to me twice.
4. My attention span is pretty much endless! I can't think of the last time that I was bored.
5. I'm a pretty rational person; if you give me enough evidence against something I believe in, I'll change my mind.
6. I'm impressively self-motivated. The only motivation I need is "You have to do this by X time on Y day."
7. I almost never need to work at memorizing things.

I may add some stuff later on, but I'm sleepy and my brain isn't working properly... but thanks for the question! Way to be positive

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Thank you for answering my questions. :hi:

I am not the type of person to loudly proclaim MBTI for two reasons. First I am not loud, and second, I prefer to not let people just know what my type is. I have a reputation as a logical person (T) and I prefer to keep it that way as it seems best to have the reputation of logical and caring then either/or. Be a middle ground that everyone can relate to. This doesn't quite work as my good friends know I am a bit too soft. Oh well, I'll figure how to get people to proclaim their results out or I won't. People are still people regardless.

You mentioned MBTI changed your life and helped. Can you explain how? Sorry if this was an overly personal question.

Are you interested in questions with answers that may never affect your life? For example my question above, doesn't seem to actually impact my life as you are probably never going to have a significant impact upon my life (and vice versa) for that question to be useful. Although it might be useful, by increasing my experience of how other peoples' lives increasing possibly my ability to sympathize with others.

I would agree that at least your brethren (ISTJ) "not register the severity of what you're feeling" (your response to EnFpFer). So it may be a STJ thing.

You have good answers, so I shall wait patiently and thanks again for doing this thread.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I, too, would "prefer" not to do that, but I just remember everything without meaning to! Example: obnoxious songs on hit radio. I'll find, within a few weeks of my first listen of the song, that I'll have it completely memorized, and I'll sing along to the whole frickin' thing and then go "Oh god, what am I doing? I HATE this song!!"

Ha! That's a trip. I actually do that one a lot too.
Now that I think about it, I am generally much more detailed that she is. Entire buildings could be being built across the street, and she doesn't notice until I bring it to her attention. She was always impressed with how I could pick up on every little detail of a song and then repeat it, intonation and all. Hm... I'm wondering ENTJ actually.

We might, I dunno, not register the severity of what you're feeling, and we might (incorrectly) think of it as separate from the task at hand.

This. I don't think she understands how damaging her approach is to our relationship. Although, I've given her books, written her letters, and tried spelling it out to her in a million ways, along with just stating what I feel to be the obvious.

Well, if you tried it and it didn't work, I guess it isn't acceptable... honestly, I think your tone must have done it. If your blood was boiling and you were showing it, nothing you say will have made a difference, because only the tone will have registered... and she will have seen it as disrespectful.

You would think, but I'm a master at hiding my emotions. I can be quite the stoic myself actually.
I'm pretty sure she was pissed because I said,"I'm not going to agree with a statement like that, in which you seem to be calling me immature. I'm insulted by it". Saying "not" or "no" to her is like cursing. I said it in a very sweet way though, and very calmly. She couldn't even hear me the first time because she was ranting in my ear. I think my calmness was also ticking her off. Do you ever feel that way when someone is appearing calm and you're clearly upset?

OH no. No it doesn't. Countering is a VERY VERY bad idea. We register that as an attack. When you "counter", you make it personal, and therefore you bring emotion into it. When I say "rationalize", I mean "be uber-logical and calm and rational"... in other words, try and be an INTx for a bit.

So a disagreement of ideas actually feels like a personal attack?

I don't really think all ESTJs are like this, but a lot of ESTJ fathers probably are; that is, wanting to essentially be your boss, and not your parent.

This is the case. She is also the boss professionally, and I think she has a hard time transitioning between roles. Or, maybe she doesn't want to.

I'm seeing a very strong theme, actually. It's whenever you don't just do what she says without question. If you show attitude, or you question what she's telling you in any way, that's disrespecting her, in her mind.

Yes, whenever I show displeasure or disagreement with a demand of hers. It's almost like,"How could you?! How dare you!?" She strongly values compliance(other people's, not hers).

This might sound cheesy, but think of it like The Godfather (which, btw, is a VERY ESTJ movie). You may be friendly with the don, but would you show attitude? No, 'cause you'd get murdered!

Haha!**shivers** I wouldn't be friendly with the don though, cause I don't hang out with--or respect--mobsters. I get the analogy though, and I appreciate your responses! Thank you.

 

[Fidelia]

EJCC and co, I wanted to say that something just came to me a few days ago. I've felt badly about continuing to bring up my frustrations about my ESTJ (who was in a bad space for an extended length of time). I think what has kept me wanting to revisit it is to get figured out what did happen from his perspective, seeing as I'm not even sure if he really was aware of his own emotions until they kind of overwhelmed him. What you have been able to offer is a peek into your ESTJ brain. Even unhealthy versions of a type do, I believe, have typical tendancies in their unhealthiness. For example, an unhealthy ESTJ is going to have totally different default reactions even in distress than an unhealthy ISFP, or INFJ or ENTP. Fortunately, you are healthy examples of ESTJs, so you don't need to consider whether the examples described are typical of you and you're just not seeing it. However, you have been most helpful in at least being able to give some insight into the state of mind someone of your type who is in distress for an extended time might have. Thank you so much for that!

 

[EJCC]

I am not the type of person to loudly proclaim MBTI for two reasons. First I am not loud, and second, I prefer to not let people just know what my type is. I have a reputation as a logical person (T) and I prefer to keep it that way as it seems best to have the reputation of logical and caring then either/or. Be a middle ground that everyone can relate to. This doesn't quite work as my good friends know I am a bit too soft. Oh well, I'll figure how to get people to proclaim their results out or I won't. People are still people regardless.

Oh yeah, I said that knowing that you wouldn't be like that. I have many INFJ friends, and... well, I don't see that happening You could always just ask them if they've ever taken the test, sort of as a conversation starter. And if they say no, you can just say "It's very cool, and I recommend that you try it." And later on, you can check and see if they've taken it. Just a thought - dunno if that would come naturally to you.

But I'm a bit concerned by your response. Why would you want to appear like your type is different? Is there something wrong with being an INFJ? And since when are INFJs illogical? You can be logical and be an INFJ.

You mentioned MBTI changed your life and helped. Can you explain how? Sorry if this was an overly personal question.

Well, I was using hyperbole, in an attempt to be funny, which was why I said "pretty much changed my life" instead of just "changed my life"... but it still effected me quite a bit. I really understand, now, how different people can be, and how that changes how you interact with them. I didn't really get that before, since, in my ESTJ-ness, I fail at putting myself in other people's shoes.

Are you interested in questions with answers that may never affect your life? For example my question above, doesn't seem to actually impact my life as you are probably never going to have a significant impact upon my life (and vice versa) for that question to be useful. Although it might be useful, by increasing my experience of how other peoples' lives increasing possibly my ability to sympathize with others.

I like chatting with people. I like psychoanalyzing myself. I tend to think out loud (and think as I type). So answering your questions DOES help me a little. It's questions that have no practical significance that often annoy me. For example, most philosophical questions really irritate me.

thanks again for doing this thread.

However, you have been most helpful in at least being able to give some insight into the state of mind someone of your type who is in distress for an extended time might have. Thank you so much for that!

No problem, guys! Glad to help

 

[EJCC]

I'm pretty sure she was pissed because I said,"I'm not going to agree with a statement like that, in which you seem to be calling me immature. I'm insulted by it".

And that's bring emotion into it, like I said before. Even if you didn't seem emotional, you still brought up your emotions. Better to pretend like they don't exist, in this situation. Or, if you DO bring up emotions, bring up HERS. e.g. "I understand that you're upset, but..."

Saying "not" or "no" to her is like cursing. I said it in a very sweet way though, and very calmly. She couldn't even hear me the first time because she was ranting in my ear. I think my calmness was also ticking her off. Do you ever feel that way when someone is appearing calm and you're clearly upset?

I'm not sure. I don't think so, but then again, I can't think of an example. I'm pretty sure that, if your calmness DID make her mad, it was because she thought you were faking it. Sounds like she's convinced that you know what she's thinking, so she probably thinks you were pretending to not know. And if there's one thing that annoys me (maybe not all ESTJs, but definitely me, and maybe her), it's people who fake emotions for strategic purposes.

So a disagreement of ideas actually feels like a personal attack?

I'm sorry, I didn't phrase it well... I meant that a disagreement on a topic of emotional significance feels like a personal attack. If it's purely factual, e.g. "No, Tide is better than Clorox", then that's not going to feel like an attack, because it's not personal. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, whenever I show displeasure or disagreement with a demand of hers. It's almost like,"How could you?! How dare you!?" She strongly values compliance(other people's, not hers).

Can you say "control freak"? Jeez. This is where her unhealthiness comes in - the fact that she's an ESTJ with serious issues, and not just a normal ESTJ. I mean, ESTJs DO like to be in control, but not usually to this degree.

 

[EJCC]

So... any other questions?

 

[d@v3]

What is your opinion regarding male ISTJ's? Are you generally attracted to them? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

I was about ready to reply, but I was replying to other people first. So I'm sorry for the wait. I wanted to thank you for the practical advice (meh who really wants practical advice, really?)

Since I can't really think of anything, I'll rip off D@ve's good idea and ask:

What is your opinion regarding male INFJs? Are you generally attracted to them? If so, why? If not, what's wrong with you? How's that for pride in being an INFJ?

In reference to your post to EnFpFer:
How much control should a healthy ESTJ want?

 

[EJCC]

What is your opinion regarding male ISTJ's? Are you generally attracted to them? If so, why? If not, why not?

I... don't really know any. But if they're like the female ESTJ that I know, and if they're like the people I've typed as ISTJ on TV and in movies and such, yeah, I like them. I'm not sure how well I'd mesh with them romantically, if that's what you were thinking (it's almost like looking at myself when I look at them, and that's not really a good sign...), but as friends, yeah, they're awesome.

What is your opinion regarding male INFJs? Are you generally attracted to them? If so, why? If not, what's wrong with you? How's that for pride in being an INFJ?

LOL. Yes, I like them. I like them as friends... but I find that (in the case of heterosexual INFJ men, anyway), that they aren't quite as... open?... as INFJ women are, even when you're very close friends with them. Which means that, since I'm not that great at reading people, I have a hard time understanding INFJ men. But I only know one male INFJ irl, so... I dunno.

How much control should a healthy ESTJ want?

Wow, what a subjective question. What sort of situation are you thinking of? Work? Home?

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Everything and anything. I know it was subjective. I guess it would be best to use EnFpFer situation, if she didn't mind, as it might be helpful to know what a healthy ESTJ would be like in a similar situation. Maybe not specific enough, my personal question would be if I had you as a boss what should I expect?

Yeah, you were right about INFJ men not being open, at least in my case.

 

[EJCC]

Everything and anything. I know it was subjective. I guess it would be best to use EnFpFer situation, if she didn't mind, as it might be helpful to know what a healthy ESTJ would be like in a similar situation.

I think that in a similar situation, an ESTJ mom might say "Here's the thing - this particular thing happened with the dog a while ago, and now I don't trust you with dogs, so I'd really prefer it if you keep the dog somewhere outside of my house." In other words, a healthy ESTJ would be blunt about why they were feeling that particular way. Weird, passive-aggressive behavior doesn't come naturally to us, I don't think.

Honestly, though, if that ESTJ were healthy, the situation wouldn't even exist. Most ESTJs are more trusting than that, and most don't keep outdated feelings about people for so long, as she did.

Maybe not specific enough, my personal question would be if I had you as a boss what should I expect?

If I were your boss, you should expect me to be a traditionalist and a skeptic. Any control freakery from ESTJs in the workplace, in my opinion, comes from those two things - since we have very strong, specific beliefs in what the "right" and "wrong" ways to do things are, and since we're skeptical of unusual/unknown people/things/policies until we see definitive proof that they work/are trustworthy, we appear to have an innate need for control. In my case, I absolutely do NOT have a need for control... but I DO have a need for things to be done CORRECTLY

 

[kathara]

How much does it take for you to make up your mind about serious commitment, such as marriage?

 

[EJCC]

It depends. I think usually, there'll be a period where we'll want to put off the decision, and sort of worry about it, but then there's always (for me) a time where we go "Okay, this has gone far enough. I NEED TO MAKE THIS DECISION RIGHT NOW" and then we make the decision. (Not in a rush, mind you, but even if we're hesitant, we force ourselves to make the choice and not look back.)

 

[Amira]

I just wanted to say to EnFpFer that your mom sounds abusive. I have done a TON of research on abuse lately because of some issues people I know and love are having and the way you describe her behavior sounds like an abuser. With them, trying to be nice and adjust to what they want will not get them to behave rationally and politely. Neither will hitting them over the head, unfortunately, though it sure is tempting! Just wanted to put that out there.

 

[entropie]

Do you ever get tired of being a textbook case ? I know I do

 

[EJCC]

^^ Thanks for the input, Amira! Haven't seen you round these parts in a while.

^ ...what do you mean, "textbook case"? Do you mean, like, a textbook example of an ESTJ? 'Cause if that's what you mean, I don't get tired of it, because I'm not a textbook example. I'm a girl, I'm pretty liberal and open-minded, and I'm NOT in business or the military.
But if you meant, like, sort of a case study, i.e. on this thread, the answer is no. I enjoy this. I like being asked questions that I can answer authoritatively.

 

[EJCC]

erm... any other questions?

 

[BlackCat]

Would you say it's a matter of "health" as to whether you guys listen to other people's opinions and other people's sides of things? This sort of thing has really frustrated me with my step mom (ESTJ) over the years... I'm aware that you guys think you're correct in your judgment and employ that until proven wrong, but for some of you guys nothing can prove you wrong and you are the center of the world. I suppose it is a matter of health eh?