[NT] Hurt feelings and NT's

[Samurai Drifter]

Is that because it's true? Or because it's not true? Or does the truth or lack of truth in it have nothing to do with it? Oh wait it's probably just because you don't value warm-heartedness. I'm still curious if truth or lack of truth matters though.

EDIT! I was assuming it doesn't bother you at all but you just said that it doesn't hurt you. Does it affect you in a negative way sometimes?

It just doesn't have any effect on me, and the idea of someone using that as an insult is humorous.

 

[Sunshine]

I certainly agree that Fs are more comfortable in the realm of their emotions - recognizing and classifying them. Many, though not all, are better with dealing with them as they arise. What I was curious about is where they extend this facility to presume to know how others - sometimes strangers - are feeling and insist on trauma or repression if the evidence does not match their assumptions.

OH I SEE.

Oh well I can't talk for others but...

If it's a stranger and I'm not actually conciously thinking about it and he or she shows any of the normal signs of emotional expression like a smile or a frown etc. etc. then I'll assume they're experiencing the usual emotions that normally accompany those expressions and then if they were to deny those emotions I might think they were lying, I might not, it would depend, but in any case I wouldn't really give it much thought and would probably forget about it 5 seconds later because it's just a stranger. If I were conciously thinking about it I would probably come up with all kinds of explanations, one of which being that they could have one of those faces that expresses emotions they're not really feeling. (I often look angry when I'm not really feeling anything) And I would choose to not assume that any one of those explanations were true becaue I'm not that person; I'm not inside of them so I can't be sure that I know what they experienced.

It's a whole other story when I know someone. When you get to know someone really well you can tell when they're upset...sometimes before they even can. Sometimes it's the outside perspective that's right...even with ourselves. I know that there have been times when people have said I had a certain quality and I said, "No way! There's no way I have that quality. I'm me and I know myself better than you and I don't have that quality!" only to later find or realize that I indeed did have that quality. We can't always see everything inside oursleves and sometimes others can see things we can't. I don't think I know people better than they know themselves overall but sometimes I can see things they can't and vica versa. However, I never assume that someone is in denial or is supressing emotions unless I have good evidence like my example about the shouting man with popping vains throwing things and claiming to not be angry.

Oh and about trauma...don't ask me I have no clue about that works. Emotions yes. Trauma no.

The end.

 

[Sunshine]

It just doesn't have any effect on me, and the idea of someone using that as an insult is humorous.

Yeah the same thing as calling me illogical. I don't care at all.

If I do what I'm supposed to do and help make the world a better place I have no cares or worries or concerns whatsoever about being "illogical." Whatever that's supposed to mean anyway.

However, I do sometimes worry about efficiency and logic does come in handy with that...like if I'm trying to help people I want to do the most possible with my recources and I can't think of an example now but I'm sure logic would at the least help.

Oops. Agh.

Okay what I mean is I don't care about logic as long as I can fufill my life purpose however I think logic would probably help with that. And if that's true than I only care about to the degree that it will help me and others fufill their life purposes and help things be the way they are meant to be.

 

[garbage]

Sometimes it's the outside perspective that's right...even with ourselves. I know that there have been times when people have said I had a certain quality and I said, "No way! There's no way I have that quality. I'm me and I know myself better than you and I don't have that quality!" only to later find or realize that I indeed did have that quality. We can't always see everything inside oursleves and sometimes others can see things we can't. I don't think I know people better than they know themselves overall but sometimes I can see things they can't and vica versa. However, I never assume that someone is in denial or is supressing emotions unless I have good evidence like my example about the shouting man with popping vains throwing things and claiming to not be angry.

 

[Sunshine]

Okay lol nevermind about the hot tub party that was kind of fun. Discussing stuff like this and getting in each other's minds is so fascinating.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay lol nevermind about the hot tub party that was kind of fun. Discussing stuff like this and getting in each other's minds is so fascinating.

I still don't trust you! get out of my mind!

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

OK, this may be irrelevant but where did the whole NTs = Robots sort of generalization begin in the first place? Is it supposed to be targeted specifically at how they act when emotions are involved?...Because many of the NTs I know are vibrant and full of life. INTjs seem to be an exception to this but I can't say I've actually known one well.

As for Fs being able to deal with emotions better on the whole: No. Fs seem to hold on to slights longer than Ts. Most harp on things that have been forgotten by most a long time ago. Ts may not recognize emotional slights as often as Fs do, but they hardly see them where there weren't any (NFs are SO good at this )

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. Maybe just the perception that NTs don't have any feelings or they repress them is inaccurate... They probably just don't give two shits in the long run.

I still stand by what I said earlier though. Insulting an NTs competence is the best way to hurt their feelings.

 

[Salomé]

Sorry, I can't exactly cite personal observations.

I will tell you that I essentially spend 5+ hours a day, if not longer (and have consciously for at least 6 years) thinking about/systematizing/discussing other people's feelings and motivations. Not that this is necessarily reason to believe me...but I bet I've spent a lot more time thinking about it than most people.

I wasn't asking you to. You alluded to research/study. I thought you might have something more concrete to back a statement as categorical as:

A conscious fight to maintain "rationality" and push down feeling is ALWAYS a signifier of unresolved major personal issues. ALWAYS.

You don't. You don't even offer a theory. All you have is your own observation and interpretation, coloured by your own issues.
This is not convincing.

 

[Amargith]

Wow, this thread has worked out nicely

I'll join in, as a feeler, on the matter of feeling out other peoples emotions.

And, as any good feeler, I'll use personal experiences

As a kid, I used to be confused a lot by what people told me, as the 'vibe' they gave wasn't compatible with what they were saying. And, as the vibe was stronger than their words, I would respond to that, causing all kinds of confusion, anger and silence. People either didn't wanna be called a liar and denied the validity of my response, or suddenly found themselves facing their own fears and what they were trying to repress, or simply didn't understand how I picked up on it. Did I make wrong calls? Yes, especially if the vibe coming of them wasn't that strong, or I didn't know them that well. I'm not gonna say I'm infallable.

But over the years, I've had numerous people who told me things like: "how do you know that?" and "How is it you know what I'm gonna say" and "I've never told anyone this, but it came out so naturally with you" after I gently touched something in them that nobody ever noticed. These are the nice responses, and that's why we do it. It allows people to heal themselves sometimes, and it creates immensly strong bonds.

Other responses were denial (and yes, it was denial, coz their anger was just out of proportion with what I said and the vibe I got, got stronger), anger, etc. And of course also sometimes a 'huh? I have no clue what you're on about) and then the vibe would vanish, while they said it, or, it turns out that I miscalculated the thing they were vibing about, which I then encounter later on in the conversation.

So how does this vibe work:

What I tend to do to get a feel for someone's emotional state is check their bodylanguage, their intonation, the words they chose and a certain amount of 'gut' that something is off. If one of those things is 'off', I'll check it against the rest of them, and see if I can find more clues. Last, I access in my memory what I know about the person, personality and what is happening in their lifes at that moment as well as what happened in their past, and combine that with how I would feel in that situation, with some adaptations to their own experiences and preferences (which I get from the info on their personality and past experiences).

I realize I'm not them, and I cannot fully shake my own perspective, and in fact, when I'm unbalanced myself, I'm more likely to make mistakes on this, very much so, coz you start projecting. But feel free to call me arrogant when I say..it does work

 

[Spartacuss]

But over the years, I've had numerous people who told me things like: "how do you know that?" and "How is it you know what I'm gonna say" and "I've never told anyone this, but it came out so naturally with you" a.

I am far from a feeler and have had the same experience. I wouldn't say it is because I "gently touched something" in them. I simply took an interest in them and tried to listen before jumping to conclusions.

Other responses were denial (and yes, it was denial, coz their anger was just out of proportion with what I said and the vibe I got, got stronger), anger, etc. And of course also sometimes a 'huh? I have no clue what you're on about) and then the vibe would vanish, while they said it, or, it turns out that I miscalculated the thing they were vibing about, which I then encounter later on in the conversation.

OK but sometimes I got ticked off if people tried to force what I consider illogical or stupid, especially if they were being self-serving so they don't have to face their own errors, but wanted me to concede to something I think false. The anger did not mean they were right in the first instance.
But that's just me.

 

[Amargith]

I am far from a feeler and have had the same experience. I wouldn't say it is because I "gently touched something" in them. I simply took an interest in them and tried to listen before jumping to conclusions.


OK but sometimes I got ticked off if people tried to force what I consider illogical or stupid, especially if they were being self-serving so they don't have to face their own errors, but wanted me to concede to something I think false. The anger did not mean they were right in the first instance.
But that's just me.

I don't doubt that T's can have this effect on others as well, as I've had them do it to me too, but I do think Feelers are more prone to this type of situation As for the anger, when it is accompanied by a vibe of fear, you know you've gotten too close to the truth and they don't like you being that aware of their intimate emotions. Which..of course is their decision. The anger about being misunderstood feels very different though, IME, so that difference to me at least, is very clear.(note: on the internet it is fuzzier as you do not get the full set of signals: body language and intonation are extremely important in these matter)

 

[Spartacuss]

I don't doubt that T's can have this effect on others as well, as I've had them do it to me too, but I do think Feelers are more prone to this type of situation As for the anger, when it is accompanied by a vibe of fear, you know you've gotten too close to the truth and they don't like you being that aware of their intimate emotions.

Or they fear what they may do if you piss them off too much. The attack on autonomy can arouse pretty strong defenses in an introverted T and if they lose control, can look pretty scary. Most of us would prefer not to go there. I've been in that position where I was accused of something so off-base by a feeler who kept pushing it and pushing it (she couldn't be wrong, of course) until I shocked myself and the feeler with (you guessed it) anger out of all proportion.

Which..of course is their decision. The anger about being misunderstood feels very different though, IME, so that difference to me at least, is very clear.(note: on the internet it is fuzzier as you do not get the full set of signals: body language and intonation are extremely important in these matter)

It's not an anger at being misunderstood. It's anger at the attack at my autonomy. Many of us are used to being misunderstood.

And yes, It's hard to read correctly on the internet, but when I listen IRL I listen to not only what they say but also when and how they say it. It's no wonder people often get it so wrong on the net.

 

[Amargith]

Or they fear what they may do if you piss them off too much. The attack on autonomy can arouse pretty strong defenses in an introverted T and if they lose control, can look pretty scary. Most of us would prefer not to go there. I've been in that position where I was accused of something so off-base by a feeler who kept pushing it and pushing it (she couldn't be wrong, of course) until I shocked myself and the feeler with (you guessed it) anger out of all proportion.

You've had this happen to you a couple of times huh
I usually try just to state carefully what I feel is going on, and if I don't get a favorable reaction, I let it go, unless that vibe keeps popping up during the entire conversation, so I'll rarely get the reaction where someone just blows up on me because I misunderstand. I do get that reaction when they're trying to explain something to me which I find hard to comprehend, but that's a different matter. However, I wonder if that's what is getting confused here.

I have had it happen to me where I intuit how someone perceives a certain situation (happens a lot when I'm still getting to know the person), and ask if I'm correct, they indicate no, and I then ask questions as to why not and how they do perceive it. When the other party is not able to convey that clearly to me, frustration does sometimes arrise. But I'll hardly be pressing that you SHOULD feel the way I think you are. It's more the frustration of miscommunication, like you're talking two different languages.

It's not an anger at being misunderstood. It's anger at the attack at my autonomy. Many of us are used to being misunderstood.
And yes, It's hard to read correctly on the internet, but when I listen IRL I listen to not only what they say but also when and how they say it. It's no wonder people often get it so wrong on the net.

I have to ask though, what you mean with the attack at your autonomy. Are you strictly referring to those occasions where someone insists you should feel a certain way, or do you include situations where someone actually does come too close for comfort. And you might be used to being misunderstood, but being misunderstood about how you feel is still a bit more sensitive than being misunderstood about a theory you have...or at least that's the case for me.

 

[Spartacuss]

Yeah, it has happened a few times.

I have to ask though, what you mean with the attack at your autonomy. Are you strictly referring to those occasions where someone insists you should feel a certain way, or do you include situations where someone actually does come too close for comfort.

The attack is in the form of just wanting to have it their way in their explanation of what is going on. It's related to what I wrote here:

OK but sometimes I got ticked off if people tried to force what I consider illogical or stupid, especially if they were being self-serving so they don't have to face their own errors, but wanted me to concede to something I think false.

It is this need for the feeler to have the thinker accept the feeler's opinion no matter how wrong or else accept that the thinker is incompetent at gauging their own feelings - to take the assessment out of the thinker's hands.

And you might be used to being misunderstood, but being misunderstood about how you feel is still a bit more sensitive than being misunderstood about a theory you have...or at least that's the case for me.

Being misunderstood about how I feel is only more of a problem if I cannot simply explain and be done with it, as with a theory.
It is true that part of what caused the outsized anger I described above was being accused of something wrongly when I thought the feeler - as a friend - should have known me better than to reach that conclusion. Stubborn clinging to the conclusion exacerbated it.

 

[Amargith]

Being misunderstood about how I feel is only more of a problem if I cannot simply explain and be done with it, as with a theory.
It is true that part of what caused the outsized anger I described above was being accused of something wrongly when I thought the feeler - as a friend - should have known me better than to reach that conclusion. Stubborn clinging to the conclusion exacerbated it.

Would active questionning exacerbate it as well though? And I mean by that, asking how you would describe the feeling and how what I'm sensing is off, or what could be a logical explanation for why you are vibing that feeling while you're telling me I'm off. Coz I've had it happen that that triggers a sudden outburst of frustration and anger.

 

[Siegfried]

Would active questionning exacerbate it as well though? And I mean by that, asking how you would describe the feeling and how what I'm sensing is off, or what could be a logical explanation for why you are vibing that feeling while you're telling me I'm off. Coz I've had it happen that that triggers a sudden outburst of frustration and anger.

Im not NT, but hopefully this will help. Emotions are not their strongest point, its almost like being blind, they are very vulnerable especially when their very close emotions are being questioned, under the logical armour, it feels weird to have someone so close to your emotional state and still not understand it, especially if the person is quite far away, whether NTs would admit that I don't know. Much like feelers can misuse hard logic in certain situations. Best way is to just to ask, why they're acting like that, I wouldn't mind that. Like for example, there may be other reasons for it, rather than you, then thought itd be best to leave for awhile and equally thought itd be in people's benefit to give people space. NTs should still be careful about how the action is interpretated though definantly that is a drawback. If you've let know to NTs that you could interpretate it this way, they'll be more careful about it, don't worry too much about its fine.

 

[8lifeGREAT]

NT's feelings

NT's Ps are free to create, so the idea that feelings ARE what we SAY they are have me rarely REACT with a feeling. I process my feelings AWAY. Being extraverted in every other area and being someone who works with FEELING people (special ed) with no filters can be unexpected.

I did a course called the Forum which appealed to me greatly and helped me identify key themes in my life. BIG emotions usually suprise me, I'm so rational. And I'm a behaviorist by training SOOOO I prefer it that way. I prefer to watch what people are doing rather than what they are saying. But being a 'P' I'll allow them to go on and on for a very long time.

I highly value intimacy (the EN part) so I spend alot of time creating relationship VALUE. But NT allows me time to go away and process. In the very moment of an emotionally charged exchange I am told that I often can read someone the riot act w/ no indication that I am upset, AND that it goes off like a bomb when they think about it. For this reason I can seem UNSAFE especially to F's and types who like to play it safe. My type is interested in innovating so we have no interest in the same-old-same-old. We want change and this happens in the emotional realm; people need to KEEP UP and transform.

This can be very confusing for ISTJ, ESTJ and S's in general. One needs a big picture or long term perspective to feel safe, I think, for these types.

 

[Not_Me]

Yeah the same thing as calling me illogical. I don't care at all.

Logic helps you achieve your goals. For example, if you want to find the kindest spouse but you based your selection on hair color, then I would call your choice illogical.

 

[Totenkindly]

Sorry, I can't exactly cite personal observations.

I will tell you that I essentially spend 5+ hours a day, if not longer (and have consciously for at least 6 years) thinking about/systematizing/discussing other people's feelings and motivations. Not that this is necessarily reason to believe me...but I bet I've spent a lot more time thinking about it than most people.

Well, if we are going that route -- that's how I spent my entire first 30 years of life (and I'm not exaggerating), and I still spend a lot of time thinking about those things, I can't suppress that intensity of behavior, although I've eased up a great deal because I now trust my ability to deal without having to figure everyone out ahead of time.

Yes, I was extremely neurotic. Interesting, I WAS the same way as you describe, and it was a signifier for major issues in my life -- I had to appear rational all the time and was constantly downplaying, negating, or dismissing any emotions I felt, as part of protecting myself from dismissive people.

So I'm not sure whether I'm in agreement or disagreement with you on this. I do agree that often, habitual suppression/dismissal/disregard of emotions is a coping mechanism that reduces perceived vulnerability to external attack; however, there might be some other reasons in play as well... in addition to simply the differences between people.

I do think I will say that "T" people actually can live jovial, relaxed lives, enjoying the moment, not having to pick apart every little statement someone makes, have healthy and relaxed relational bonds with people, not always have to be critical, etc. We can show good and bad emotions in healthy ways, without always having to ignore or push them away.

IOW, we can be "balanced."

 

[Not_Me]

Insulting an NTs competence is the best way to hurt their feelings.

In my case, it would not. If I felt the insult was inaccurate, I would be annoyed and it would reinforced the "I'm surrounded by idiots" attitude.