Random political thought thread.

[The Cat]

Riddle me this the cat said to the room: How many people do you need to legally kill a man, to send a convict to their doom? 12 randos off the street or 1 judge's opinion? How many would you want deciding whether you live or die based off of one tragic mistake.

Regarding the question of warehousing the cat said with a grin. It depends on what kind of business you're in: Come on down to Bob Justice's discount used humans they work all day for no pay and isnt it just so convenient. Or god forbid rehabilitation. taking in a broken thing and getting back a repaired and reintegrated one. Perhaps then the loss of life would be in some way mitigated rather than simply multiplying tragedy. But then that would require at least a passing familiarity with empathy or the ability to recognize another human outside of a mirror.

Isnt it fun everyone to never be misunderstood? Aint it great to have a say in your fate from one day to another? Because Justice is blind only more or less 1 third of the time, while the rest only goes to the highest bidder.

​

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I would say they don't actually deserve to live (whereas I feel their innocent victims did).

The idea that they do not deserve to live is, in your own words, based on something you feel.

Regardless of that, they certainly do not deserve the resources required from society to warehouse them in prison for the rest of their life, nor the resources to attempt to rehabilitate them (which is probably impossible for deviants who have committed death penalty level crimes).

I thought you might say this, but I thought I would wait for you to make this point before addressing it. My response involves perhaps some sentiment of my own:

I do not feel comfortable with utilitarian calculations being made on who is fit to live and who is not. I believe it's all too easy for the definition of "fit" to creep until we start targeting the mentally ill and the disabled. Once this argument about "resources required for them to live" is applied to one group (criminals), what stops this from being applied to the mentally ill and the disabled?

Conversely, what is the rational to keep them alive and warehoused until a natural death?

For me, I think bans against the death penalty are a safeguard against tyranny. They are also obstacles for those who wish to (knowingly or not) return to some of the social attitudes regarding disability present in the early 20th century. In the case of the latter, those attitudes were frequently couched in scientific language as a way of justifying those viewpoints. I don't mean this to disparage science (I've been interested in it before I could read), but it's in the historical record.

It's either based on some religious principle (i.e. only god can decide) or some misguided sense of guilt that one might hold if they support the death penalty. The first argument I don't consider rational and the second is purely emotional.

Secular humanism is also a thing. I would imagine they would be against the death penalty.

 

[Tomb1]

The notion that favoring the death penalty makes somebody white is ludicrous. And 46% of democrats polled supported it. That's nearly half the democrats polled....so even to assume somebody is a republican because they support the death penalty is a bit of a stretch

"Republicans and Republican-leaning independents" VS. "Democrats and Democratic leaners to favor the death penalty for convicted murderers (77% vs. 46%)....Majorities of White (63%), Asian (63%) and Hispanic adults (56%) support the death penalty, but Black adults are evenly divided, with 49% in favor and 49% opposed."

10 facts about the death penalty in the U.S.

Here’s a closer look at public opinion on the death penalty, as well as key facts about the nation’s use of capital punishment.

www.pewresearch.org

Allsides Media and MediaBiasfact check rates Pew Research Center right at the Center.

"Sources with an AllSides Media Bias Rating of Center either do not show much predictable media bias, display a balance of articles with left and right biases, or equally balance left and right perspectives."

Pew Research Center Media Bias Rating

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of Pew Research Center. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.

www.allsides.com

"Overall, we rate Pew Research as Least Biased and Very High for factual reporting due to excellent sourcing."

Pew Research - Bias and Credibility

LEAST BIASED These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using an appeal to emotion

mediabiasfactcheck.com

 

[ceecee]

The notion that favoring the death penalty makes somebody white is ludicrous. And 46% of democrats polled supported it. That's nearly half the democrats polled....so even to assume somebody is a republican because they support the death penalty is a bit of a stretch

"Republicans and Republican-leaning independents" VS. "Democrats and Democratic leaners to favor the death penalty for convicted murderers (77% vs. 46%)....Majorities of White (63%), Asian (63%) and Hispanic adults (56%) support the death penalty, but Black adults are evenly divided, with 49% in favor and 49% opposed."

10 facts about the death penalty in the U.S.

Here’s a closer look at public opinion on the death penalty, as well as key facts about the nation’s use of capital punishment.

www.pewresearch.org

Allsides Media and MediaBiasfact check rates Pew Research Center right at the Center.

"Sources with an AllSides Media Bias Rating of Center either do not show much predictable media bias, display a balance of articles with left and right biases, or equally balance left and right perspectives."

Pew Research Center Media Bias Rating

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of Pew Research Center. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.

www.allsides.com

"Overall, we rate Pew Research as Least Biased and Very High for factual reporting due to excellent sourcing."

Pew Research - Bias and Credibility

LEAST BIASED These sources have minimal bias and use very few loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using an appeal to emotion

mediabiasfactcheck.com

That isn't what was said but this post is also very emotional as are most people that support capital punishment and the bigger scope of "law and order" punitive attitudes in the US that has not worked and never will work as far as reducing crime. It's something that makes people "feel" better - regardless of them being impacted by the crime. Incidentally, the Pew survey talks extensively about how capital punishment is being used less, death sentences are given less and so on. A much broader trend than simply how people feel online vs phone (also in the survey).

The death penalty is morally wrong and people that support are cheerleading for even more repugnant ways of taking a life (firing squad in Idaho, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Utah) lethal injections with untested chemicals as the companies that once supplied the chemicals no longer do as they have said publicly - "We do not condone the use of our products for lethal injections in capital punishment.” https://deathpenaltyinfo.org In the end, there is far too much room for error, which has been proved repeatedly. The death penalty carries the inherent risk of executing an innocent person. Since 1973, at least 196 people who had been wrongly convicted and sentenced to death in the U.S. have been exonerated. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence

The actual reason that this Pew survey has these results is because AMERICANS FEEL CRIME IS INCREASING. Regardless of study after study and data saying the opposite.

Most people think the U.S. crime rate is rising. They're wrong.

Almost 80 percent of Americans, and 92 percent of Republicans, think crime has gone up. It actually fell in 2023. An expert blames a familiar culprit for the mistaken impression.

www.nbcnews.com

What the data says about crime in the U.S.

Federal statistics show dramatic declines in U.S. violent and property crime rates since the early 1990s.

www.pewresearch.org

And the numbers are even lower now. Where do these "feelings" come from? Not logic. Not data. Rhetoric whipped up by media, right wing media - pundits and politicians especially.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Americans think democracy is in peril in the 2024 election

Just saying the obvious.

 

[ygolo]

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[SensEye]

The idea that they do not deserve to live is, in your own words, based on something you feel.

I thought you might say this, but I thought I would wait for you to make this point before addressing it. My response involves perhaps some sentiment of my own:

I do not feel comfortable with utilitarian calculations being made on who is fit to live and who is not. I believe it's all too easy for the definition of "fit" to creep until we start targeting the mentally ill and the disabled. Once this argument about "resources required for them to live" is applied to one group (criminals), what stops this from being applied to the mentally ill and the disabled?


For me, I think bans against the death penalty are a safeguard against tyranny. They are also obstacles for those who wish to (knowingly or not) return to some of the social attitudes regarding disability present in the early 20th century. In the case of the latter, those attitudes were frequently couched in scientific language as a way of justifying those viewpoints. I don't mean this to disparage science (I've been interested in it before I could read), but it's in the historical record.


Secular humanism is also a thing. I would imagine they would be against the death penalty.

Yes, and your arguments are based on things you feel. Obviously, feeling and analysis are used by all human beings to form an opinion. I think your 'worries' about the disabled and such are pure nonsense. The same hue and cry is raised by the anti medically assisted dying crowd. Yet MAID has been legal (in Canada anyways) since 2016. I am certain not one disabled person has been unwillingly euthanized. It's pure emotion based fear mongering usually deployed when no reasonable data to support one's position can be found. However, if the mentally ill are murdering innocent and healthy and productive members of society, they have to be contained. Society does not have infinite resources, sometimes pragmatic decisions have to be made. I am always surprised at the almost zero concern for the victims. Their death is greeted with a collective shrug of indifference. It's like the ivory tower moralists think "well I committed no crime so who cares, but if I support the death penalty I might feel some guilt, best make my decision 100% based on protecting my own delicate sensibilities".

In any event, I didn't really want to go down this rabbit hole. It's another one of those issues I have opinions on, but it doesn't really influence my political decisions. Google tells me over the last 10 years in the US the number of death row executions is in the vicinity of 20-80 per year. Say 40 per year average or 400 total. That's not going to move the needle one way or another. Sure if the death penalty was legalized nation wide those number would go up. But to what I am not sure. My ideal implementation would clearly spell out what cases qualify for the death penalty and also apply a higher standard of guilt for a conviction (guilty by more than a reasonable doubt). So how many cases would that mean? 100 per year? 1000? I'm sure one could estimate based on a thorough study, but that would take some effort. More than I am willing to invest when my conclusions would have zero influence on public policy anyway.

 

[SensEye]

Americans think democracy is in peril in the 2024 election

Just saying the obvious.

This frustrates me in that if this is how they feel, what are they doing about it? Seemingly nothing. Step one would be to oust both Trump and Biden from the political stage, but both the primaries were pretty much a done deal before they even got started. That's absurd if only 28% of the population is satisfied with current governance.

That old chestnut about people getting the government they deserve has never rung truer.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This frustrates me in that if this is how they feel, what are they doing about it? Seemingly nothing. Step one would be to oust both Trump and Biden from the political stage, but both the primaries were pretty much a done deal before they even got started. That's absurd if only 28% of the population is satisfied with current governance.

That old chestnut about people getting the government they deserve has never rung truer.

That is kinda why I posted it in the first place.
It just doesn't make any sense even if the math is pretty clear.
The US has become pretty intellectually lazy and that is it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That is kinda why I posted it in the first place.
It just doesn't make any sense even if the math is pretty clear.
The US has become pretty intellectually lazy and that is it.

The US is full of people who would only get up off their asses to demand change if you threatened their Coca-Cola supply or Szechuan Sauce or something like that.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The US is full of people who would only get up off their asses to demand change if you threatened their Coca-Cola supply or Szechuan Sauce or something like that.

I know, that is exactly why I said what I said.
However the rematch in 2024 is really on people, there is no one else at the fault here. People voting in primaries are just a tiny fraction of the population.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I know, that is exactly why I said what I said.
However the rematch in 2024 is really on people, there is no one else at the fault here. People voting in primaries are just a tiny fraction of the population.

Despite my earlier comment, I'm going to say something in favor of the American people and say it's not entirely on them.

If I explained why, I would sound like a broken record.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Despite my earlier comment, I'm going to say something in favor of the American people and say it's not entirely on them.

If I explained why, I would sound like a broken record.

This is on people and I stand by my words. You have convinced yourself that media, polls, establishment or whatever takes most part in the decision. In the case that the democratic voters and those none voters that lean towards them have organized large peaceful rallies around the country that they want better and younger candidate they would get it. Since the establishment would realize that they can't win with Biden (so they would have to find better and younger version of him). Hell, even all of the polls are suggesting that doing this is actually pretty good idea. While with that switch the odds of Trump winning would probably become pretty slim. While in the case that Republicans have done the same you would basically have the reverse scenario.


Feel free to take a look at Ukraine, in the case that the people said "ok" all of this would be over in 2 weeks with or our without any international help. However the people said no and the country stands despite the odds that are really against them. While what you needed to do is slight inconvenience next to the what people around the world have to go through to get the job done.


You have all become bystanders in your destiny and in the end that is indeed on you.

 

[The Cat]

You got a little schmutz in the corner of your mouth there...

 

[The Cat]

Don't anyone go getting too excited seeing us all go to hell. We'll see you there with us soon enough...
That is of course apart from that magical little word so many need to remember before it really is too late:
Unless.​

To the voters at home and abroad; for fuck sake vote for the side that's not trying to pull a fascism. Whether you like thinking about old people or not. Whether you feel democrats give you everything your little filled to bursting hearts desire or fucking not. They're the side not trying to pull a fascism on the rest of us. As my drill sergeant used to say: Grab hold of your ears, say 'Pop' and now that you've pulled your heads out of your ass get your heads in the game your asses out on the field and get to fucking work like your lives depend on it, because fun fucking fact ladies: They do. Now get your asses in gear and fucking MOVE.

Make sure you're registered to vote now.
And fucking vote blue. Tell your friends, tell your family. find out the voting laws in your state and make a plan in February so that you don't get fucked in November.


And one more random political thought. If your "leftist" news source is acting like a right wing outlet trying to convince you to waste your vote or divide you from the guy who isnt an authoritarian...Consider you might be in a psy op or listening to someone who's been paid a lot of money to sell you out. There's grifters on the left as sure as a bass ackwards purity test problem. Divide and conquer is being used against you. Hell. Divide and conquer is whats being used against all of us. Its how we got in this mess in the first place. Barrage people with a flood of lies and half truths and random facts people start to forget how to tell truth from lies and they go insane. But they can be herded like buffalo all the way over the cliff.

The writing is on the wall.

Repent... for the end is nigh.​

The Avalanche is ready to begin it waits only for the right catalyst.

Winter... has come.​

 

[Red Herring]

View attachment 30191
Don't anyone go getting too excited seeing us all go to hell. We'll see you there with us soon enough...
That is of course apart from that magical little word so many need to remember before it really is too late:
Unless.​

To the voters at home and abroad; for fuck sake vote for the side that's not trying to pull a fascism. Whether you like thinking about old people or not. Whether you feel democrats give you everything your little filled to bursting hearts desire or fucking not. They're the side not trying to pull a fascism on the rest of us. As my drill sergeant used to say: Grab hold of your ears, say 'Pop' and now that you've pulled your heads out of your ass get your heads in the game your asses out on the field and get to fucking work like your lives depend on it, because fun fucking fact ladies: They do. Now get your asses in gear and fucking MOVE.

Make sure you're registered to vote now.
And fucking vote blue. Tell your friends, tell your family. find out the voting laws in your state and make a plan in February so that you don't get fucked in November.


And one more random political thought. If your "leftist" news source is acting like a right wing outlet trying to convince you to waste your vote or divide you from the guy who isnt an authoritarian...Consider you might be in a psy op or listening to someone who's been paid a lot of money to sell you out. There's grifters on the left as sure as a bass ackwards purity test problem. Divide and conquer is being used against you. Hell. Divide and conquer is whats being used against all of us. Its how we got in this mess in the first place. Barrage people with a flood of lies and half truths and random facts people start to forget how to tell truth from lies and they go insane. But they can be herded like buffalo all the way over the cliff.

The writing is on the wall.

Repent... for the end is nigh.​

The Avalanche is ready to begin it waits only for the right catalyst.

Winter... has come.​

I was talking about this with my hubby earlier today and about how the civil rights movement back in the day mobilized people to get folks voting whom certain people preferred to not go voting. Maybe that's what's needed today. The country might look mighty divided but voter turnout is so low by international standards that there is a huge reservoir of people that just don't make their vote count.

Yes, I am aware that the system is tweaked and in many states people are actively discouraged from helping others get to vote (WTF!? Not being allowed to hand out water to people waiting in line to vote? Did I get that right?!)..... But at least this time around the chances of getting murdered by the goddam KKK while doing the good work has diminished somewhat.


And, yes, you guys still tend to set the trends. And whether or not you are onboard with missions affecting the entire planet like the fight against climate change or the pushback against authoritarian power grabs does matter.

 

[The Cat]

I was talking about this with my hubby earlier today and about how the civil rights movement back in the day mobilized people to get folks voting whom certain people preferred to not go voting. Maybe that's what's needed today. The country might look mighty divided but voter turnout is so low by international standards that there is a huge reservoir of people that just don't make their vote count.

Yes, I am aware that the system is tweaked and in many states people are actively discouraged from helping others get to vote (WTF!? Not being allowed to hand out water to people waiting in line to vote? Did I get that right?!)..... But at least this time around the chances of getting murdered by the goddam KKK while doing the good work has diminished somewhat.

Indeed. And yeah, in some places they try to make it so hard to vote; for being so allegedly hard for the constitution, they sure dont seem to have ever read it. Honestly sometimes with some people I think they just dont want to do as their asked or told, simply because they know there's a social expectation for a citizen to get out and vote. But we've been brainwashed here to believe that individualism at all costs is a smart way for social creatures to live. If I didnt know any better I'd say a lot of curses are coming to account in the 2020s but the sad fact of the matter is nostalgia really is the best bait to trap a human soul. And one way or another. Everyone seems to have taken the bait on some level. My hope is enough fish slip the hook that the fishermen realize that its not the best way to go fishing. Tbh Im just glad they haven't started fishing us with dynamite...yet.

 

[Virtual ghost]

You got a little schmutz in the corner of your mouth there...

As I said before I wasn't born in a democracy and thus I don't take it for granted. In other words you can't realize true importance of this social mechanism until you lose it. However at that point it is already too late. Therefore when you see some primaries where only about a few percentage of locals voted you indeed have to wonder what is with those people. Especially since in the primaries you have multiple choices (in most cases). Therefore there is no way that with some of these people you don't have at least 50:50 overlap. Plus if a half decent person wins in a primary you will even have someone to vote for in the general.

In other word I had to go through hiding from air strikes so that I could vote when I grow up. While someone is too lazy to drive 10 blocks in order to vote. I am sorry but your socio-economic problems are indeed on you. After all without participation of the messes democracy is falling apart basically by definition. While staying home is basically voting for just that.

 

[ceecee]

I was talking about this with my hubby earlier today and about how the civil rights movement back in the day mobilized people to get folks voting whom certain people preferred to not go voting. Maybe that's what's needed today. The country might look mighty divided but voter turnout is so low by international standards that there is a huge reservoir of people that just don't make their vote count.

Yes, I am aware that the system is tweaked and in many states people are actively discouraged from helping others get to vote (WTF!? Not being allowed to hand out water to people waiting in line to vote? Did I get that right?!)..... But at least this time around the chances of getting murdered by the goddam KKK while doing the good work has diminished somewhat.


And, yes, you guys still tend to set the trends. And whether or not you are onboard with missions affecting the entire planet like the fight against climate change or the pushback against authoritarian power grabs does matter.

There are a lot of people on the right that would gladly shoot anyone they think is doing good work.

Here's the thing. Republicans speak openly about unthinkable things like repealing Constitutional amendments. Just the ones they don't like of course. Women voting (19th) or slavery (13th) although slavery still exists all over the US as a form of prison labor as the amendment allows a broad interpretation of slavery for criminal offenses). This is in no way a fringe thing. The Speaker of the House of Representatives is incredibly problematic overall. He is a flag flying Christian Nationalist and all around fashy crank but his church is a real issue when it comes to slavery.

Mike Johnson’s Disturbing Ties to Slavery-Defending Christian Nationalists

The House speaker won’t exactly disavow the connection, according to a new report.

newrepublic.com

Enough people continue to not vote and the GOP will have the 2/3 needed to repeal these amendments and that's just for openers. But the amount of dumbass libs and non-voting people who still think there are checks and balances is enough to make you want to stab somebody.

I mean the Dems are a lot of things but I have yet to hear one talk about repealing amendments.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

View attachment 30191
Don't anyone go getting too excited seeing us all go to hell. We'll see you there with us soon enough...
That is of course apart from that magical little word so many need to remember before it really is too late:
Unless.​

To the voters at home and abroad; for fuck sake vote for the side that's not trying to pull a fascism. Whether you like thinking about old people or not. Whether you feel democrats give you everything your little filled to bursting hearts desire or fucking not. They're the side not trying to pull a fascism on the rest of us.

I agree with this.

As my drill sergeant used to say: Grab hold of your ears, say 'Pop' and now that you've pulled your heads out of your ass get your heads in the game your asses out on the field and get to fucking work like your lives depend on it, because fun fucking fact ladies: They do. Now get your asses in gear and fucking MOVE.

How might getting out in the field be relevant in a solidly blue state like Illinois? Primaries or gubernatorial I can see the value of. If I still lived in Pennsylvania, I wouldn't have any excuse.

As an aside, I'd love to read a really good book on electoral politics covering some portion of the period from 1960 through 1992. Election results looked very different back then; usually the winner would carry the majority of the states. It's entirely different from the way we talk about and conceive of it now.

Make sure you're registered to vote now.
And fucking vote blue. Tell your friends, tell your family. find out the voting laws in your state and make a plan in February so that you don't get fucked in November.


And one more random political thought. If your "leftist" news source is acting like a right wing outlet trying to convince you to waste your vote or divide you from the guy who isnt an authoritarian...Consider you might be in a psy op or listening to someone who's been paid a lot of money to sell you out. There's grifters on the left as sure as a bass ackwards purity test problem. Divide and conquer is being used against you. Hell. Divide and conquer is whats being used against all of us. Its how we got in this mess in the first place. Barrage people with a flood of lies and half truths and random facts people start to forget how to tell truth from lies and they go insane. But they can be herded like buffalo all the way over the cliff.

I mostly read the NPR website these days which I'm inclined to trust (they have decent coverage on Gaza, for instance), focusing primarily on topics of interest.