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Random political thought thread.

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The election isn't lost. It's a matter of engagement. That can actually be changed. Something cam be done about it.

This isn't wishful thinking, but a matter of fact.
 

Virtual ghost

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By engagement, I mean people being involved and motivated enough to go out and vote for Biden.

Ok, since I could see some deeper meanings behinds those words.

But yes, Biden still has a open shoot if he campaigns at least half decently. At the end of the day it doesn't even matter that he is old. Since these will be very ideological elections and thus the actual candidates are a secondary topic as it seems.
 

Virtual ghost

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I mean now it is way to late to make some kinda of alternative to Biden. After all various deadlines have passed. So now for the Democrats it is indeed the best that he is challenged as little as possible within the party. Since the party needs to be as united as possible for the general.
 

SensEye

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the way i see it democracy with a state is a flawed system...corruption is a byproduct of giving power to politicians and ignorance is a byproduct of giving power to the masses....so neither representative nor direct forms of democracy work in any meaningful way.
I think that is a bit harsh. Myself, and I would argue most people who live in representative democracies with a low corruption index (i.e. G7 countries) have a pretty good standard of living. So to say representative democracy doesn't work in any meaningful way is simply not true.

And from what I observer of non democratic countries (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist), their standard of living is lower and often much lower.

Democracy has its flaws, but it is the best system anyone has come up with so far. I think the system itself is ok, the main flaw is many elections turn into popularity contests instead of competence/policy contests, but that is mainly a result of an ignorant and/or uninvolved electorate. People tend to vote on emotional issues rather than policy issues. And some people tend to not vote at all. That's a product of human nature, which is decidedly hard to change.
 

Virtual ghost

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I think that is a bit harsh. Myself, and I would argue most people who live in representative democracies with a low corruption index (i.e. G7 countries) have a pretty good standard of living. So to say representative democracy doesn't work in any meaningful way is simply not true.

And from what I observer of non democratic countries (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist), their standard of living is lower and often much lower.

Democracy has its flaws, but it is the best system anyone has come up with so far. I think the system itself is ok, the main flaw is many elections turn into popularity contests instead of competence/policy contests, but that is mainly a result of an ignorant and/or uninvolved electorate. People tend to vote on emotional issues rather than policy issues. And some people tend to not vote at all. That's a product of human nature, which is decidedly hard to change.

Exactly, however I think that the guy is simply unhappy with certain trends and probably under plenty of stress. After all US has certain elements in which they are closer to what you call (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist) rather than the rest of developed world. Therefore such reaction was kinda expected based on what I was posing. In typical developed country Trump's program wouldn't really have a shot ... however in US it evidently does. Therefore if Trump wins again we should stop pretending that US is truly "one of us". I know that these are harsh words as well but I think we have to be honest with ourselves if Trump wins again. Especially in the case that it is pretty convincing victory.
 

Virtual ghost

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Exactly, however I think that the guy is simply unhappy with certain trends and probably under plenty of stress. After all US has certain elements in which they are closer to what you call (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist) rather than the rest of developed world. Therefore such reaction was kinda expected based on what I was posing. In typical developed country Trump's program wouldn't really have a shot ... however in US it evidently does. Therefore if Trump wins again we should stop pretending that US is truly "one of us". I know that these are harsh words as well but I think we have to be honest with ourselves if Trump wins again. Especially in the case that it is pretty convincing victory.


I mean first time it can be called and considered a glitch. However if it happens again in just a few years then this is more of a feature or a trend.
 
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I mean first time it can be called and considered a glitch. However if it happens again in just a few years then this is more of a feature or a trend.
I would agree. It would be part of a downward trend for a while. But perhaps trends can be stabilized or, god forbid, even reversed.
 

ceecee

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Exactly, however I think that the guy is simply unhappy with certain trends and probably under plenty of stress. After all US has certain elements in which they are closer to what you call (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist) rather than the rest of developed world. Therefore such reaction was kinda expected based on what I was posing. In typical developed country Trump's program wouldn't really have a shot ... however in US it evidently does. Therefore if Trump wins again we should stop pretending that US is truly "one of us". I know that these are harsh words as well but I think we have to be honest with ourselves if Trump wins again. Especially in the case that it is pretty convincing victory.
The fact that Trump exists as a possible anything should be enough to show that the US isn't "one of us". Not trustworthy (dunno if we ever were) and certainly not a country that anyone would want to work with. More like not much of a choice otherwise. GOP included - they're full of Christian nationalist accelerationists, criming mfers and various moronic sheep. Dems are enablers - keeps them from having to do anything since "we don't have the numbers" in the house and senate bullshit. I don't think the US is alone in it's far right swing - this is happening in Europe too (I assure you I hear about it in every email and phone call from my in-laws in the Baltic). My point is that none of this is new but the fact that it likely is going to end up the way it did last time is depressing.
 
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The fact that Trump exists as a possible anything should be enough to show that the US isn't "one of us". Not trustworthy (dunno if we ever were) and certainly not a country that anyone would want to work with. More like not much of a choice otherwise. GOP included - they're full of Christian nationalist accelerationists, criming mfers and various moronic sheep. Dems are enablers - keeps them from having to do anything since "we don't have the numbers" in the house and senate bullshit. I don't think the US is alone in it's far right swing - this is happening in Europe too (I assure you I hear about it in every email and phone call from my in-laws in the Baltic). My point is that none of this is new but the fact that it likely is going to end up the way it did last time is depressing.
I went by what I felt last time, and I felt that things were going to go very poorly. I wanted to compare it to 2004. I was wrong.

Maybe the way I've been feeling about things recently is also wrong. I've been tempted to compare it with 2016. Certainly, there are similarities. But, nothing is written. It's a matter of convincing people to go out and vote, and do it for Biden. Can it be done? Probably. It remains to be seen whether it will be done; certainly, people are demoralized for a variety of reasons, some of them very understandable.

The ultimate problem here, as it often is, is one of morale. In this case, people often don't see anything worth fighting for that's on the table, and therefore see no reason to fight. Is this true, though? Is there nothing on the table worth fighting for?
 

Tomb1

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I think that is a bit harsh. Myself, and I would argue most people who live in representative democracies with a low corruption index (i.e. G7 countries) have a pretty good standard of living. So to say representative democracy doesn't work in any meaningful way is simply not true.

And from what I observer of non democratic countries (dictatorships/military rule, theocratic, communist), their standard of living is lower and often much lower.

Democracy has its flaws, but it is the best system anyone has come up with so far. I think the system itself is ok, the main flaw is many elections turn into popularity contests instead of competence/policy contests, but that is mainly a result of an ignorant and/or uninvolved electorate. People tend to vote on emotional issues rather than policy issues. And some people tend to not vote at all. That's a product of human nature, which is decidedly hard to change.
That's a rosy colored view of democracy with a state. Colin Powell emerged on the scene as an honorable, upright, stand-up guy. Politics turned him into a scavenging bureaucratic weasel who lied, lied, lied to manufacture support from the public for an invasion into Iraq...which Cheney's company Halliburton grabbed all the big oil contracts for. The lesson is if representative democracy can corrupt colin powell, it corrupts any run of the mill politician. That's just the nature of the system.

Democracy with a state is the best system anyone has come up with in terms of being able to have a populace running inside a hamster wheel without having to put a gun to their head...you seriously cannot tell me that the population in a democracy has any more external freedom than a dictatorship when it is a demonstrable fact so many citizens marched off to their own deaths in a pointless war called Vietnam. Muhammad Ali didn't go because he understood the war made no sense, and he got thrown into jail. You're talking differences on paper, but in reality, there's no real practical difference.

Those low corruption indexes are garbage, people don't engage in the sophisticated analysis required to sniff out the corruption in G7 countries. Keep in mind that the opiates of the masses includes more than just religion....it also includes keeping people numbed out through hedonistic comforts. So just because your standard of living may be higher doesn't mean that your external freedoms or quality of life are any higher or that you've attained any type of truer happiness. It just means that more people in your country have been programmed to associate quality of life with the attainment of status and other false needs -- working hard in order to consume, consume, consume, so they keep that hamster wheel spinning.
 
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Virtual ghost

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The fact that Trump exists as a possible anything should be enough to show that the US isn't "one of us". Not trustworthy (dunno if we ever were) and certainly not a country that anyone would want to work with. More like not much of a choice otherwise. GOP included - they're full of Christian nationalist accelerationists, criming mfers and various moronic sheep. Dems are enablers - keeps them from having to do anything since "we don't have the numbers" in the house and senate bullshit. I don't think the US is alone in it's far right swing - this is happening in Europe too (I assure you I hear about it in every email and phone call from my in-laws in the Baltic). My point is that none of this is new but the fact that it likely is going to end up the way it did last time is depressing.


Truth to be told American hard right is story for itself. The whole gun thing, undoing government completely, openly pay to play healthcare and education ... etc. In Europe nationalistic tendencies are rising due to overly free trade and mass immigration but things aren't going nearly as far as in US. When it comes to economy even the democratic party is to the right of my far right. Over the years I haven't heard out of them a single word against socialized medicine. After all some of these people are even working in the system. Thus you really need a vacation to truly sum up all the differences of both systems. Trying to directly compare this with Trump is just wrong. Trump is far more "crazy" than what is going in Europe. Not to mention that his chances of winning anything of significance are much much higher. While in Europe multiparty system makes things much more complicated to take over.

Plus as my last post in the other thread suggests the "populist wave " in Europe is starting to lose speed. Since people are starting to realize where things are going. Not to mention that campaign for federal elections is speeding up, so now even average Joe pays attention. However I can't really say the same for US. You are basically every man for himself and thus you really struggle with sorting out certain things. Plus the fact that you have only 2 parties only adds to black and white thinking (pun intended). Therefore you can't really directly equalize situation for you and me. With all due respect but you are in much deeper problems than me.
 

Virtual ghost

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I went by what I felt last time, and I felt that things were going to go very poorly. I wanted to compare it to 2004. I was wrong.

Maybe the way I've been feeling about things recently is also wrong. I've been tempted to compare it with 2016. Certainly, there are similarities. But, nothing is written. It's a matter of convincing people to go out and vote, and do it for Biden. Can it be done? Probably. It remains to be seen whether it will be done; certainly, people are demoralized for a variety of reasons, some of them very understandable.

The ultimate problem here, as it often is, is one of morale. In this case, people often don't see anything worth fighting for that's on the table, and therefore see no reason to fight. Is this true, though? Is there nothing on the table worth fighting for?


In the end it all comes down to turn out even in much deeper ways than most people understand. After all why would anyone start their local campaign for fundamental change if they know that the people wouldn't show up in the primaries ? What means that establishment will take races/seats. While on the other hand if people wouldn't show up why would establishment even try to present something new to the people ? If you stay home that is actually a signal that you are happy with things as they are. Therefore people not voting is simply wrong message however you turn it. To be honest no one explained to me what all of my local seats are actually doing, but I researched that a little bit and in the end it turn out that it matters who actually seats there. Since those seats have direct say how something will be implemented. However until you actually vote you don't really realize how much of the stuff is going on even if it is never on TV. In the end it turned out that my neighborhood has some kind of mini 15 seat parliament that makes decisions all the time, plus there are some other seats as well. However you don't notice any of that that until you actually get a ballot in your hands and ask yourself "for what is this ?"


At this point it can be argued US supreme court will be a conservative one by something like 2035 at least. However if Trump wins that line will probably move to mid century. While whole example of abortion directly shows why all of this matters. In other words some people in the mid west stayed home more so than usual and this is the consequence. So this whole story that it doesn't matter is for the most part made up just so that people stay home. In a sense this is anesthetic that puts people to rest.

As I said before, every time there is some kind of a vote people should go out and vote. If anything that is because that gives the impression "we are paying attention, so don't do anything stupid". In a real democracy voters are judge and the jury. Plus they can execute some people's careers if they really suck in their job. However if people don't vote in significant number then you basically have the system that is governing itself. What makes it to be some kind of a pseudo-dictatorship (and then people will wonder why everything sucks). Democracy without votes is basically like a car without fuel, there is no way that it will get the job done.
 

SensEye

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Democracy with a state is the best system anyone has come up with in terms of being able to have a populace running inside a hamster wheel without having to put a gun to their head...you seriously cannot tell me that the population in a democracy has any more external freedom than a dictatorship when it is a demonstrable fact so many citizens marched off to their own deaths in a pointless war called Vietnam. Muhammad Ali didn't go because he understood the war made no sense, and he got thrown into jail. You're talking differences on paper, but in reality, there's no real practical difference.
Conversely, you are being far to cynical. Vietnam was quite some time ago. And even that war had limited conscription. I believe it is now considered a significant foreign policy mistake, although the US continues to make many of those.

I am not just talking differences on paper. G7 nations may not be corruption free, but they all have free and fair elections (surely you don't believe Trump's BS to the contrary). Many countries demonstrably don't. Russia, Venezuela, many African nations. I'm not even sure if North Korea or China even bother with sham elections where there is only one party to vote for (they might, but god knows why). Also, I can openly criticize government politicians with no fear of reprisals. Try that in Russia/China/PRK. You won't have your freedom for long. There are no drug cartels running roughshod over neighborhoods murdering politicians or judges who they can't bribe. Islamic

I could go on an on. There is a vast practical difference.

Those low corruption indexes are garbage, people don't engage in the sophisticated analysis required to sniff out the corruption in G7 countries. Keep in mind that the opiates of the masses includes more than just religion....it also includes keeping people numbed out through hedonistic comforts. So just because your standard of living may be higher doesn't mean that your external freedoms or quality of life are any higher or that you've attained any type of truer happiness. It just means that more people in your country have been programmed to associate quality of life with the attainment of status and other false needs -- working hard in order to consume, consume, consume, so they keep that hamster wheel spinning.
Again, I don't agree. Standard of living being higher is directly correlated with happiness. I have never gone hungry or not had a roof over my head. I have next to no fear of criminal thugs threatening me or my property (random shit can happen, but it is generally rare). I was granted the opportunity for free primary and secondary education and reasonably priced post secondary education. This is true of almost all G7 countries (except maybe the US when it comes to post secondary costs). If I need health care I will generally get it at no direct cost (i.e. I pay via taxes). Maybe not in as timely a fashion as I like, but things can't be that bad or life expectancy in G7 countries wouldn't be among the highest in the world.

Sure people have to work. But back in more primitive times, people had to spend almost all their waking hours laboring just to provide themselves with food and shelter. 40 hours a week or so is hardly unbearable. And for that I get a lot of creature comforts over and above basic necessity. I like those comforts, they make me happy.

I'm an INTP so status means nothing to me. I don't I have any false needs. I base my consumption based on what I can afford and what I want. I carry no significant debt so I cannot be forced to stay on the treadmill. If less savvy folks buy into advertising and status seeking behavior and get caught in a cycle of living beyond their means, that is hardly the result of social democracy.
 
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