Do you like the taste of blood?

[Lark]

Around here they just steal any Dem signs but I could easily see it escalating since we also have the caravans of armed, flag bearing, right winger hanging out in the WalMart parking lot although lots of them have WWG!WGA on their trucks as well so they are Trump Q supporters.

We also have a "constitutional sheriff" which means he fully supports the entire MAGA/anti mask/anti lock-down/white supremacist agenda.

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No

The whole anti-mask thing is a bit kamikazi for that group surely? I mean how do you prove your supremacy by all opting to contract a killer disease at once?

 

[ceecee]

This thread is meant to be doom and gloom but I will got counter flow.



The US doesn't need and in general doesn't want a civil war. Therefore in my book the main problem here is that diversity of the country simply can't be represented through so monolithic and simplistic political system as it is now. Much much smaller countries have much more of political diversity and therefore many more relevant political parties than US, which is objectively quite large country. In other words basically all of the current tensions would be be mostly fixed with better representation.



Here is how this looks on the other side of the Atlantic.

One of the tricks with more accurate representation is that much larger amount of people will feel represented and therefore they will search what they want through democratic means. No political system is perfect but removing the obvious flaws should be in anyone's interest. For me having Biden and Bernie in the same party is simply insane and the whole country suffers because of that fault-line. While even on the right you can have similar examples. Therefore it is better that every block gets it's own party and that they cooperate when they can in various combinations and if they can't then the majority will decide. However diversity is very likely to boost the quality of the talking points and allow phasing out of "bad apples". Since in two party system you can't punish one party without boosting another one. While in genuine multi-party system you can phase out the political parties with ease. Plus "us vs them" doesn't get so pronounced, what is good.



The European system is still under construction but as the second picture shows here various states of the block have much better odds to choose the option that represents their local interest better. What gives certain flexibility to what is even larger system than US in the term of citizen numbers. In other words as technological level growths there are more and more issues on the table and you need certain flexibility if you have a large system but you also want to have a working democracy. However that picture represent only the largest party at the time through out the member states, what is usually bellow 50% of the seats. Therefore they have to take "minor" partners to have 50% of the seats. What makes sure that for the most part that from cycle to cycle the ruling coalition is never the same, what is good for a number of reasons. What altogether is a model that can be copy-pasted into US if needed. Since this is basically electoral college with multi-party system, which is based around popular vote and there is no "winner takes all".



In my book if US actually needs something it need this kind of a change.

Exactly.

 

[ceecee]

The whole anti-mask thing is a bit kamikazi for that group surely? I mean how do you prove your supremacy by all opting to contract a killer disease at once?

Slow motion suicide bombing is how I've described it. I mean...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Slow motion suicide bombing is how I've described it. I mean...

This disgusts me to the extreme. First of all 'the man doth project too much'. Walmart workers have a tough gig, little pay, and they don't need some full grown brat throwing a toddler tantrum. This level of entitlement and selfishness is fairly widespread and sickening. He's the one with no idea in his head except, "WAAANNNT" "WAAAANNNNT".

It's very ironic how the people with the least ability to think are always shouting about the sheeple and projecting that onto others. It's a very consistent phenomenon.

I really despise that behavior.

 

[Lark]

Slow motion suicide bombing is how I've described it. I mean...

Definitely Kamikazi behaviour.

I even wondered if Trump saying he'd done a favour to black people was some weird twisted message that he'd gathered all the white legacies together without masks to spread the virus among them but then you have to believe a lot of conspiracy theory to believe that one.

I mean what if an establishment deliberately decided to dupe the most risky elements in the society at large in order to draw them out, kill them, neutralize the threat they pose, wouldnt you want to employ an actor to do that? Isnt that exactly what Trump is, an actor? A reality TV star?

 

[Maou]

I think violence is inevitable, and a possible cold civil war. But its going to be entirely isolated in cities for the most part. Riots will escalate for sure.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

If Antifa wasn't an imaginary militia, then there would be someone to match the bloodthirsty nature of the extreme right-wing militias. You do have to have a lot of training and coordination for war to happen. Even guerrilla warfare requires a lot of training and coordination. People have to have their evil shit together.

Trying to place the police force in opposition to white supremicist militias or private militia forces creates two sides, but I really don't think the situation can organize into warfare with one side throwing drunken tantrums with guns and the other side saying mean things while eating carrots and other organic veggies.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I kind of like this public disorder stuff, to be honest. Reminds me of my youth. For example, here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the "Long Hot Summer of 1967":

The long, hot summer of 1967 refers to the 159 race riots that erupted across the United States in the summer of 1967. In June there were riots in Atlanta, Boston, Cincinnati, Buffalo, and Tampa. In July there were riots in Birmingham, Chicago, New York City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New Britain, Rochester, Plainfield, and Toledo.

The most destructive riots of the summer took place in July, in Newark, New Jersey, and Detroit, Michigan, and many contemporary newspapers headlines describe them as "battles."

Long, hot summer of 1967 - Wikipedia

Also, we had some underground groups robbing banks and bombing public buildings: The SLA, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, etc. And of course the Vietnam War was underway, as were the civil rights movement, the women's lib movement, etc. And throw in a couple nasty recessions and things like the shootings at Kent State University, political assassinations (MLK, the Kennedy brothers) etc.
List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States - Wikipedia

Some people worried that it might all turn into an all-out civil war. But the situation never even got close to that point. It takes a lot more than a few street fights to make a real civil war. It was just a bad economy (lots of people laid off and with lots of free time on their hands) and a need on the part of young people to raise a little hell and crack some skulls.

I'm not actively hoping for things to get worse. I like social stability and order. But I have to admit that I kind of get a fun thrill from reading some of the headlines these days. It takes me back.

It would have to get several times worse to rival my youth. But who knows, maybe we'll get there. To me it's just entertainment. As long as they don't riot on *my* block, then by all means send in the clowns.

Some song lyrics about the violence from my youth:

There's blood in the streets, it's up to my ankles
Blood in the streets, it's up to my knee
Blood in the streets in the town of Chicago
Blood on the rise, it's following me
--Peace Frog; The Doors

Horror grips us as we watch you die
All we can do is echo your anguished cries
Stare as all human feelings die
We are leaving, you don't need us
--Wooden Ships; Crosby, Stills, and Nash

Sisters and brothers, daddies, mothers standing around crying
When I reached the scene the flames were making a ghostly whine
So I stood on my horse's back and I screamed without a crack
I say, "Oh baby why'd you burn your brother's house down?"
--House Burning Down; Jimi Hendrix

Everywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Because summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street boy
But what can a poor boy do except to sing for a rock and roll band
Because in sleepy London Town
There's just no place for Street Fighting Man! No!
--Street Fighting Man; Rolling Stones

 

[Lark]

I kind of like this public disorder stuff, to be honest. Reminds me of my youth. For example, here's an excerpt from Wikipedia on the "Long Hot Summer of 1967":



Also, we had some underground groups robbing banks and bombing public buildings: The SLA, Black Panthers, Weather Underground, etc. And of course the Vietnam War was underway, as were the civil rights movement, the women's lib movement, etc. And throw in a couple nasty recessions and things like the shootings at Kent State University, political assassinations (MLK, the Kennedy brothers) etc.
List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States - Wikipedia

Some people worried that it might all turn into an all-out civil war. But the situation never even got close to that point. It takes a lot more than a few street fights to make a real civil war. It was just a bad economy (lots of people laid off and with lots of free time on their hands) and a need on the part of young people to raise a little hell and crack some skulls.

I'm not actively hoping for things to get worse. I like social stability and order. But I have to admit that I kind of get a fun thrill from reading some of the headlines these days. It takes me back.

It would have to get several times worse to rival my youth. But who knows, maybe we'll get there. To me it's just entertainment. As long as they don't riot on *my* block, then by all means send in the clowns.

Some song lyrics about the violence from my youth:

There's blood in the streets, it's up to my ankles
Blood in the streets, it's up to my knee
Blood in the streets in the town of Chicago
Blood on the rise, it's following me
--Peace Frog, The Doors

Horror grips us as we watch you die
All we can do is echo your anguished cries
Stare as all human feelings die
We are leaving, you don't need us
--Wooden Ships, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young

Sisters and brothers, daddies, mothers standing around crying
When I reached the scene the flames were making a ghostly whine
So I stood on my horse's back and I screamed without a crack
I say, "Oh baby why'd you burn your brother's house down?"
--House Burning Down, Jimi Hendrix

Everywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Because summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street boy
But what can a poor boy do except to sing for a rock and roll band
Because in sleepy London Town
There's just no place for Street Fighting Man! No!
--Street Fighting Man, Rolling Stones

Sounds like history repeating itself, first as tragedy then as farce.

 

[Lark]

I think violence is inevitable, and a possible cold civil war. But its going to be entirely isolated in cities for the most part. Riots will escalate for sure.

In what way do you think they will "escalate"?

People may get increasingly worried about them and perhaps the authorities response will become more sinister?

 

[Tennessee Jed]

Sounds like history repeating itself, first as tragedy then as farce.

I'm tempted to agree. But that would be unfair to the kids today. Their causes are real to them. I'll grant them the dignity of their feelings and assume that their causes are as real to them as they were to my contemporaries.

 

[Maou]

In what way do you think they will "escalate"?

People may get increasingly worried about them and perhaps the authorities response will become more sinister?

Riots and looting might destroy some cities permanently in combination with covid lockdowns. We're already seeing it in NYC. It could definitely turn into "Escape from NYC" situation.

 

[Lark]

If Antifa wasn't an imaginary militia, then there would be someone to match the bloodthirsty nature of the extreme right-wing militias. You do have to have a lot of training and coordination for war to happen. Even guerrilla warfare requires a lot of training and coordination. People have to have their evil shit together.

Trying to place the police force in opposition to white supremicist militias or private militia forces creates two sides, but I really don't think the situation can organize into warfare with one side throwing drunken tantrums with guns and the other side saying mean things while eating carrots and other organic veggies.

Yeah, that TV movie Bushwick is probably the greatest depiction of what could happen if there was a sufficiently wealthy conspiracy dedicated to realizing some racist dream and willing to sponsor it.

I think you make a good point though about the nature of the forces involved in any likely violent conflict, the right wing has always been pretty orderly in its actions, the left wing opposition to the same people is totally chaotic.

There's a bunch of reasons for that chaotic character, sometimes its some dumb framing of ideology that does not permit organizing, but a lot of the time being oppressed simply does not fit you out well for self-emancipation or being the model of some alternative (and I'll be frank I do not think a lot of thought has gone on about that).

While the whole orderly approach of the far right is a legacy of most of them idolizing militarism, even if they'd not personal history or experience as service personnel. Plus all the obsession with supposed conspiracy. Ironically it makes a lot of them paranoid and inclined to adopting conspiratorial tactics themselves. Which is likely to make them of a problem for the actual authorities than the chaotic opposition.

There's the possibility that in a scenario like this the authorities find some way to become complicit in the action of the far right, like that's already been seen, its the a sort of identifying with the aggressor which happens in some domestic violence scenarios or a kind of Stockholm syndrome or The Path of Least Resistance, take your pick.

 

[Lark]

Riots and looting might destroy some cities permanently in combination with covid lockdowns. We're already seeing it in NYC. It could definitely turn into "Escape from NYC" situation.

I didnt think I'd get a laugh today.

The movie Escape from NYC features a whole series of completely cataclysmic events in order for the bizarre decision the authoritarian state makes to transform the city into a prison. Like there's earthquakes, natural disasters and some sort of global conflict going on.

Plus, I doubt riots and looting are liable to result in the permanent breakdown of law and order, nor the pandemic, nor those two things combined. Its the US you're talking about and not a work of fiction or a southern hemisphere, "third world" country. Seriously. I dont mean this as hubris but the dreams of a general crisis and then white supremacist order emerging spontaneously like in Hand Maidens tale are as unlikely a fable as that of the general strike resulting in a syndicalist utopia.

 

[Maou]

I didnt think I'd get a laugh today.

The movie Escape from NYC features a whole series of completely cataclysmic events in order for the bizarre decision the authoritarian state makes to transform the city into a prison. Like there's earthquakes, natural disasters and some sort of global conflict going on.

Plus, I doubt riots and looting are liable to result in the permanent breakdown of law and order, nor the pandemic, nor those two things combined. Its the US you're talking about and not a work of fiction or a southern hemisphere, "third world" country. Seriously. I dont mean this as hubris but the dreams of a general crisis and then white supremacist order emerging spontaneously like in Hand Maidens tale are as unlikely a fable as that of the general strike resulting in a syndicalist utopia.

Thats true lol, but there has been max exodus and companies realizing they don't need to pay insane money for an office they don't even need. Covid has altered the business models of so many industries. Cities might no longer be hubs of white collar workers. I'm not saying its literally gonna be Escape from NYC, but things might feel like it.

Also, USA can quickly turn 3rd world (especially in pockets) I don't get the whole "This is AMERICA' mindset. The quality of life can change rapidly with a few bad policies, lack of faith in government, and lack of stability. Defunding the police was retarded on all counts. Allowing riots, but refusing to protect home and property is instabiliy. Many of the mayors of these cities hide behind their gated communities as their cities burn. How is that not considered nearing 3rd world? Its all fun and games till they come knocking on their doors.

 

[Lark]

Thats true lol, but there has been max exodus and companies realizing they don't need to pay insane money for an office they don't even need. Covid has altered the business models of so many industries. Cities might no longer be hubs of white collar workers. I'm not saying its literally gonna be Escape from NYC, but things might feel like it.

Also, USA can quickly turn 3rd world (especially in pockets) I don't get the whole "This is AMERICA' mindset. The quality of life can change rapidly with a few bad policies, lack of faith in government, and lack of stability. Defunding the police was retarded on all counts. Allowing riots, but refusing to protect home and property is instabiliy. Many of the mayors of these cities hide behind their gated communities as their cities burn. How is that not considered nearing 3rd world? Its all fun and games till they come knocking on their doors.

Yeah, pretty gloomy prognosis, the only thing is that its happened before, in fact its just a repeated pattern really and with each generation there's people who think they've lived to see some kind of ultimate collapse. Until the next time.

I'm not sure that the kinds of decentring involved in network style working as opposed to cities, monopolies and centralization is anything to worry about and definitely not the harbringer of the apocalypse or terminal decline either.

Its not a "this is america" mindset but the knowledge of world systems, transnationalism, globalism etc. which leads me to conclude that countries like the US will always place a break upon permitting themselves to become third world nations. There is a lot more to third world status than lack of faith in government and instability.

The defunding of police services I think was a crank move, it was an easy sell to a lot of misguided left libertarians or anarchists of various stripes but that was nothing more than next stage neo-liberalism and privatization, again, as an answer. The gated communities is neo-liberalism and privatization, again, too. It is all a crazy sawing of the branch you are sitting upon but it wont render the US a third world status. That's just project fear for the Trump family cartel.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Its not a "this is america" mindset but the knowledge of world systems, transnationalism, globalism etc. which leads me to conclude that countries like the US will always place a break upon permitting themselves to become third world nations. There is a lot more to third world status than lack of faith in government and instability.

Yes there is more to it but unfortunately this isn't the only metric where US increasingly fits the profile. Availability of healthcare is on the table, huge chunk of infrastructure is in bad shape (to the point that dams are falling and tap water isn't drinkable). There is a fair amount of street crime and various armed militias are wondering around. Journalism is mediocre at best. In the last quarter economy fell by 32% and pandemic response is indeed more on a third world level. Affording yourself a roof over your head is becoming objective problem for many. Food quality isn't exactly that great for years ..... etc. However these are all signs that you are becoming third world country. Especially since today even those often have skyscrapers and nukes.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

Nah, Lark's got it right. The US is first-world, and it's going to stay first-world for a long time to come. There's no "third-world scenario" in the US's future anytime soon.

The US goes through changes; in my own time, I've seen the "Manufacturing belt" (Chicago, Detroit, and all the auto manufacturing and train centers) turn into the "Rust belt" and fall into permanent decline. But meantime Silicon Valley was built up and became an industrial monster at the same time, and the financial sector took off.

See the first graph here (entitled "Sectors of the US Economy as percent of GDP 1947–2009"), on how the various sectors have gone up and down over the last 60 years: Rust Belt - Wikipedia

The US is a lumbering monster. It may seem fragile, but it still has enormous brick-and-mortar facilities available. When the financial center in NY city was taken out at the time of 9/11, it barely caused a blip in the economy of the US. The US economy is incredibly resilient, because it's enormous and covers so many different types of industries.

The US goes through ups and downs. But it's such a monster that if it ever goes into a true long-term decline, it will bring the entire world with it. In other words, if the US becomes third-world, everyone in the world becomes third-world.

 

[Maou]

Nah, Lark's got it right. The US is first-world, and it's going to stay first-world for a long time to come. There's no "third-world scenario" in the US's future anytime soon.

The US goes through changes; in my own time, I've seen the "Manufacturing belt" (Chicago, Detroit, and all the auto manufacturing and train centers) turn into the "Rust belt" and fall into permanent decline. But meantime Silicone Valley was built up and became an industrial monster at the same time, and the financial sector took off.

See the first graph here (entitled "Sectors of the US Economy as percent of GDP 1947–2009"), on how the various sectors have gone up and down over the last 60 years: Rust Belt - Wikipedia

The US is a lumbering monster. It may seem fragile, but it still has enormous brick-and-mortar facilities available. When the financial center in NY city was taken out at the time of 9/11, it barely caused a blip in the economy of the US. The US economy is incredibly resilient, because it's enormous and covers so many different types of industries.

The US goes through ups and downs. But it's such a monster that if it ever goes into a true long-term decline, it will bring the entire world with it. In other words, if the US becomes third-world, everyone in the world becomes third-world.

What part is going up? And you're right, it will take the world with it.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

What part is going up? And you're right, it will take the world with it.

Check out that graph at that link that I offered in my last post. Look at the two red lines. Basically, we've switched over from hard manufacturing to professional services, finances, etc. That stuff may sound airy-fairy, but it's all good stuff for the new global economy--it can be done anywhere in the world. We remain the financial center of the world, no matter how much people may predict otherwise. But meanwhile, we still have lots of other bedrock industries that remain stable. It's only manufacturing that's taken a beating, and that's been going on for 50 years. That's nothing new.