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How do we evolve as a society?

Obfuscate

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Ill bet you when Trump leaves office after a new president comes in. They will receive credit immediately in the media for fixing everything. I would say Trumps policies had an immediate effect, because its trade deals, not stimulus packages. Those affect the market immediately. For example, decreasing fuel prices immediately affects all shipping costs for everyone, creating a spike in productivity. Taxing fuel, does the opposite.

those particular aspects did have more immeadiate effects in addition to the more long term ones we'll notice as time goes on...
 

Deprecator

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there is a huge delay before most things a president does can be determined as beneficial or harmful to the economy
A huge delay...? A huge delay of 3 years? 4 years? 5 years...?

I ask in part because the article you've linked is more than 2 years old, and since then Americans like myself have already seen firsthand benefits associated with Trump's tax reform. On top of this we've also seen record low unemployment, record low poverty rates, and record high earnings for workers, and all of these metrics lie in very stark contrast to the left who widely parroted that if Trump got elected then the stock market would collapse. And regardless of liberals who might want to maintain that Obama should be given all the credit for the economy because of vague and unspecified notions of "huge delays", electoral models based on the economy, wages and unemployment still widely predict that Trump easily wins 2020 in a landslide (a trend very consistent with history -- first term presidents almost always win re-election during periods of economic growth).

we'll know the actual impact trump had years from now...
Yes, I do agree that history is the true judge of virtually any presidency. And while we still have another 5 years to go, based on current trends I do believe that Trump will easily go down as the greatest modern president of all time. Of course, Trump critics are doing everything they possibly can to shift the discussion away from policy, and instead they'd rather focus on the thoroughly debunked Russia hoax, this Ukrainian nonsense, and now even other metrics that I was previously unfamiliar with such as "WPM".
 

Obfuscate

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A huge delay...? A huge delay of 3 years? 4 years? 5 years...?

I ask in part because the article you've linked is more than 2 years old, and since then Americans like myself have already seen firsthand benefits associated with Trump's tax reform. On top of this we've also seen record low unemployment, record low poverty rates, and record high earnings for workers, and all of these metrics lie in very stark contrast to the left who widely parroted that if Trump got elected then the stock market would collapse. And regardless of liberals who might want to maintain that Obama should be given all the credit for the economy because of vague and unspecified notions of "huge delays", electoral models based on the economy, wages and unemployment still widely predict that Trump easily wins 2020 in a landslide (a trend very consistent with history -- first term presidents almost always win re-election during periods of economic growth).


Yes, I do agree that history is the true judge of virtually any presidency. And while we still have another 5 years to go, based on current trends I do believe that Trump will easily go down as the greatest modern president of all time. Of course, Trump critics are doing everything they possibly can to shift the discussion away from policy, and instead they'd rather focus on the thoroughly debunked Russia hoax, the Ukraine hoax, and now even other metrics that I was previously unfamiliar with such as "WPM".

i would say roughly eight years is pretty average, but i am not an economist... a lot of what you are noticing has more to do with obama than trump... but don't worry, you can blame/credit all of trump's results on the next guy or two...

oh, and i held this opinion before trump was elected... i blamed/credited clinton for a lot of what happened with the economy when the last bush was in office... bush for what happened with obama... etc...
 

Deprecator

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i would say roughly eight years is pretty average, but i am not an economist... a lot of what you are noticing has more to do with obama than trump... but don't worry, you can blame/credit all of trump's results on the next guy or two...

oh, and i held this opinion before trump was elected... i blamed/credited clinton for a lot of what happened with the economy when the last bush was in office... bush for what happened with obama... etc...
What I immediately noticed were the tax cuts, which I daresay had nothing to do with Obama. Still, I found your "8 year delay" claim rather interesting, so I decided to do some digging. And according to at least one opinion columnist with the Washington Post (I only get laughed at when I link Fox News or Breitbart on this forum), Obama and Biden can't take credit for the soaring Trump economy.

"Before the tax cuts were passed, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) predicted "Armageddon." But, one year later, as GDP growth soared, unemployment declined to a 50-year low and working-class wages increased at the fastest rate in a decade, the best the Democrats could do was claim the tax cuts were a "sugar high" and that, rather than a 2018 economic collapse, America faced a 2019 recession.

Beyond the stark difference between Obama-era GDP and today's, let's consider the boom in job creation spurred by that accelerated growth. When Obama left office, the economy had 2 million more people unemployed than job openings. In March, the most recent month for which the data are available, after 25 months of the Trump administration, there were 1.3 million more job openings than people unemployed. And that is with the unemployment rate at a 50-year low and more people working than at any time in the nation's history.

March was the 13th consecutive month the U.S. economy produced more job openings than there were people unemployed. The first time that happened since the Bureau of Labor Statistics began reporting the data in 2000 was, well, 13 months ago. It didn't happen once during the Obama administration."

The more digging I do the more it makes sense that Russia and Ukraine are the Democrat's one and only out for 2020 -- even if it is a long shot.
 

Obfuscate

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What I immediately noticed were the tax cuts, which I daresay had nothing to do with Obama. Still, I found your "8 year delay" claim rather interesting, so I decided to do some digging. And according to at least one opinion columnist with the Washington Post (I only get laughed at when I link Fox News or Breitbart on this forum), Obama and Biden can't take credit for the soaring Trump economy.

"Before the tax cuts were passed, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) predicted "Armageddon." But, one year later, as GDP growth soared, unemployment declined to a 50-year low and working-class wages increased at the fastest rate in a decade, the best the Democrats could do was claim the tax cuts were a "sugar high" and that, rather than a 2018 economic collapse, America faced a 2019 recession.

Beyond the stark difference between Obama-era GDP and today's, let's consider the boom in job creation spurred by that accelerated growth. When Obama left office, the economy had 2 million more people unemployed than job openings. In March, the most recent month for which the data are available, after 25 months of the Trump administration, there were 1.3 million more job openings than people unemployed. And that is with the unemployment rate at a 50-year low and more people working than at any time in the nation's history.

March was the 13th consecutive month the U.S. economy produced more job openings than there were people unemployed. The first time that happened since the Bureau of Labor Statistics began reporting the data in 2000 was, well, 13 months ago. It didn't happen once during the Obama administration."

The more digging I do the more it makes sense that Russia and Ukraine are the democrats one and only out for 2020 -- even if it is a long shot.

keep digging... i think you'll find they can't all agree...
 

Deprecator

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keep digging... i think you'll find they can't all agree...
Indeed, universal consensus is an anomaly and we can keep going back and forth as to who should take credit for what. For better or for worse, at the end of the day the firsthand benefits that Americans like myself are experiencing will speak for itself; Trump will get reelected and history will be the true judge of the merits of his presidency.
 

Obfuscate

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Indeed, universal consensus is an anomaly and we can keep going back and forth as to who should take credit for what. For better or for worse, at the end of the day the firsthand benefits that Americans like myself are experiencing will speak for itself; Trump will get reelected and history will be the true judge of the merits of his presidency.

what i am getting at is there is no more evidence it is trump than any other theory people better educated than either of us have... direct benefits of what? i don't doubt trump can take the lion's share of the credit, but i do doubt that credit is due... i do believe people like you will attribute it to him, and vote for him again...

if it was doing worse i doubt he would claim any blame...

meanwhile, this is super off topic and i don't believe there is anything new to add...
 

Lark

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what i am getting at is there is no more evidence it is trump than any other theory people better educated than either of us have... direct benefits of what? i don't doubt trump can take the lion's share of the credit, but i do doubt that credit is due... i do believe people like you will attribute it to him, and vote for him again...

if it was doing worse i doubt he would claim any blame...

meanwhile, this is super off topic and i don't believe there is anything new to add...

The Trump worship is bound to have the people in the KGB offices laughing into their vodka.

Its like the personality cults of the late, great USSR, which the west, particularly the US, used to scoff at and call a uniquely communist or totalitarian problem.

Me? I dont believe in the great man theory of history or the avatar of the zeitgeist or fickle fortune and the prince or any of those variations on that single theme.

I'm much more likely to see sociologists as closer the mark, like Weber or Marx, possibly there's a role for theorists of the unconscious like Freud too.
 

Deprecator

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people better educated than either of us
lol.

Since you're the one bringing it up, just how "educated" do you think I am? Because to me it sounds like you're making all sorts of assumptions at this point.

i don't believe there is anything new to add...
Indeed, this tends to happen whenever people form their own assumptions to fit their own pre-conceived narratives, and all regardless of the facts at hand.
 

Lark

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lol.

Since you're the one bringing it up, just how "educated" do you think I am? Because to me it sounds like you're making all sorts of assumptions at this point.


Indeed, this tends to happen whenever people form their own assumptions to fit their own pre-conceived narratives, and all regardless of the facts at hand.

And how do you tell facts from narrative?

If "what liberals say..." is a feature then I'm afraid you got a narrative on your hands, just as good as the one you're probably dead set against.

Obfuscate didnt say anything at all about your education but about his own, he could have said "greater minds than mine..." or a variation on that, its a self-deprecating turn of phrase, er, Deprecator, but you knew that right? ;):D
 

ceecee

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what i am getting at is there is no more evidence it is trump than any other theory people better educated than either of us have... direct benefits of what? i don't doubt trump can take the lion's share of the credit, but i do doubt that credit is due... i do believe people like you will attribute it to him, and vote for him again...

if it was doing worse i doubt he would claim any blame...

meanwhile, this is super off topic and i don't believe there is anything new to add...

There are many Trump supporters that feel their opinion carries the same weight expertise does. And that you should give their opinions credence accordingly. Mental but that's what we're dealing with.
 

Lark

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There are many Trump supporters that feel their opinion carries the same weight expertise does. And that you should give their opinions credence accordingly. Mental but that's what we're dealing with.

I knew that the minute I heard the whole "alternative facts" thing, at first I thought it could have been some kind of incredible inarticulate individual who was trying to talk about competing findings or research studies but then I realised, nope, they were really drinking the cool aid and thought exactly what you're saying here.

I'm not always cracked up about peoples reliance on expertise sometimes but when they really mean facts or the science versus opinion it can only go one way.
 

ceecee

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I knew that the minute I heard the whole "alternative facts" thing, at first I thought it could have been some kind of incredible inarticulate individual who was trying to talk about competing findings or research studies but then I realised, nope, they were really drinking the cool aid and thought exactly what you're saying here.

I'm not always cracked up about peoples reliance on expertise sometimes but when they really mean facts or the science versus opinion it can only go one way.

I'm not saying people shouldn't do their own research and their own thinking. They should but when it becomes a delusion, you need some help. Example:

I heard a guy on the radio today - just a person who called in, not the host - that said - "Democrat's impeachment inquiry is a despicable violation of the American Constitution!"

This sounded so familiar, I couldn't figure out why. Oh, wait...

Gingrich calls impeachment process a 'despicable violation of the American Constitution' | TheHill

Betting the caller has never read the Constitution, won't read the Articles of Impeachment when they are released. He just parroted Newt, with no homework.
 

Lark

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I'm not saying people shouldn't do their own research and their own thinking. They should but when it becomes a delusion, you need some help. Example:

I heard a guy on the radio today - just a person who called in, not the host - that said - "Democrat's impeachment inquiry is a despicable violation of the American Constitution!"

This sounded so familiar, I couldn't figure out why. Oh, wait...

Gingrich calls impeachment process a 'despicable violation of the American Constitution' | TheHill

Uhh-huh.

I read some truly bizarre things about the constitution and some republicans you know, like the ones who honestly believe it sets up the country and a Christian Protestant Theocracy, there's some artist who has even done paintings of Obama standing on it while the founding fathers and Jesus look on horrified, its a serious piece of art! Not even a joke! I could not contain my laughter when I heard about it let alone seen it, I thought this has got to be some kind of South Park or Monty Python joke but nope, a real thing.

So I kind of think that side of things is awful, I like America but its more like the dude in Sleepy Hollow in my head than all that neo-Confederate stuff.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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We could tax money people get from investment the same way we tax income.
 

Jaguar

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We could rob people's homes because we don't like others to have more. Just steal it. Forget working for it. Et voila - the gap has been filled.
 
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