Am I a 4 or 5 core?

[Maou]

Since Ive been here for two years now, I figured I would make another Type me thread with my more thorough understanding of enneagram, as well as more people knowing me. My profile tends to have a flavour of the month. I usually put what others have typed me as, or what I got on tests.

Types I have tested most frequently as, is 5 and 4. I am quite sure my core is a withdrawn type, despite being extroverted in MBTI. I am absolutely unsure of my gut type, but I cannot be triple withdrawn I think...

I got into a conversation with [MENTION=35920]Earl Grey[/MENTION] again after a while of ignoring typology. He brought up once again that it's not behavior that makes you a specific type. It is your motivation. We got into a conversation about my motivations. Since I am horrible at explaining it, if he wants to elaborate it again. Please.

I think I doubt my identity too much to feel comfortable in one type for too long. I also tend to have an obsessive focus on expressing my identity, especially in art. This part of me is largely unexpressed on the forum, and usually something I don't share easily. My behavior, really doesn't reflect my motivations, to say in the least. I am a lot more sensative, and private than I let on. I don't know if I am afraid of being myself, or if I don't think myself worthy of others. Or even what myself actually is.

If I had to default to a type, it would probably be 5. Yet at the same time, I am not that concerned with competency as I thought originally. I want to be the best at everything, but also be different. I want to leave an impact on the world no one else has yet. I feel the way I can do that, is in art and writing. I don't really care for people, but at the same time like recognition, and then I get uncomfortable when people accept me, as if I was not worthy or too flawed to be accepted. I tend to drift in and out of communities, and I usually always tend to find myself an outcast in every single one. Even if I try joining an echo chamber, I find myself positioning in a way that stands out. It's no secret that I am commonly misunderstood either, and can be reactive. I am very individualistic, and even forget I can ask for help most of the time. If I stayed away from politics, people's impressions of me are night and day.

So if you were to type me, what would you say my core was between 4 and 5, and what would be my gut type if anything?

Feel free to add any instinctual varients. And please, try not to just write the type, but why as well. Even if it is just a single sentence. I need something to mull over.

 

[Earl Grey]

Whatever type you are, even from the few paragraphs you have posted here (and even more so slathered all over your blog and moments when you share your more inner thoughts with people you consider are friendly to you) your motivations is an identity and meaning-seeking one. I had mentioned that to you, but it appeared that you initially rejected it due to not having an understand of what identity and meaning-seeking means here.

Multiple times, especially throughout your blog (I have not read it lately but ennea-motivations do not change, only the approach), you expressed the desire to have some sort of penetrating insight to... something, which for some people reads as a quick E5, but we need to go further than that. That much is only reflective of the withdrawn triad- 4, 5, and 9. As usual, we need to see the whys and what fors you undertake these behaviours.

It seems that you have a constant sense that something is missing , there is something you have not found yet, something you have not experienced from yourself or your worldview. That much is already basic, hallmark E4 traits, even if they may not come out the way pop culture typology says they would (again, motivation, not (just) behaviour), but of course, we can go further than just this.

You have also expressed much of a desire to stand out- specifically in the sense of figuring yourself out and having a place in the world. To put it in perhaps an oversimplified, formulaic way-

figure yourself out & stand out: typical Image Triad concerns
seeking where you fit in in the world: typical Withdrawn Triad concerns
Image + Withdrawn: E4.

Why is this way of seeking where you fit in the world, Withdrawn specifically? Because it primarily looks within (the withdrawn triads are reflective and tend to be self-referencing) and reflects, as opposed to balance and measure themselves up against something external (compliant) or change the outside to match their desires (expansive). Even questioning your motivations in your seemingly behaviourally expansive endeavours (eg, taking charge, speaking out), they usually always go back to that- a sense of carving out some place for yourself in the world, that you were removed from as a default (Withdrawn, again), and trying to find a place in it. The sense for carving out some place for yourself in the world, depending on motivations, can be attachment or heart triad. Look here for more explanations of it, this also explains why 4 > 5, or at least 4 first before 5: [link]

"The Fours' paradigm and style naturally moves them away from the action. "Their attention moves inward towards their subjective responses to objective happenings. They reflect on their feelings and impressions of reality. If they move too far back, they may stand aloof from others for fear they will be misunderstood. Or their interest in their subjective impressions supercedes their allegiance to outer reality. Their fantasies compensate for their disappointing contact with others."

The entire bit (except for the first sentence) fits, but bolded is especially all your blog is about, which I assume are honest representations of your thoughts, regardless of how well or poorly worded they are. You have said it multiple times yourself, that you reflect to seek something within that others 'cannot, or do not' see- this is a 'personal, personalized, customized' view, and is what these 'subjective responses' mean. Your debate style also follows this, following your inner reflections and subjective responses instead of a 'common baseline' of data, and the fact that when we spoke of it you were unaware of it just shows how natural it is for you to first reference a 'personalized, subjective' view of data points or experiences- that is what becomes the 'truth' to you- your truth. Due to this tying to your sense of how you relate to the world (image triad) and your personal space within it (withdrawn triad), I gave 4 > 5 as well for these points, though I am sure you have a 5-fix there due to seeing many common 5 traits within you as well as 5 pitfalls- without the tendency to overprepare or be paralyzed the way 5-cores are (the 5s hoard themselves and remove themselves from experiences. The 4s dive in to make sense of them and their opinions, thoughts, or truths about it- again giving points to 4 > 5). The only difference is that you do not always 'move away from action' (heck 4s aren't all laying around getting tossed by the world either), and that is where you are an sp-first E4.

You are right in that you are not as competency as you may have initially thought- at least in the Enneagram sense of it. I have explained somewhere about having to properly understand the triadic terms (competency, head, withdrawn, etc) in order to type accurately. I have made one such post here, wherein I explained the distinction of Reactiveness as an enneagram term as opposed to reactivity as we use it in our day to day. The Competency Triad isn't necessarily about winning or competing, the entire paradigm of the competency triad is how the individual perceives they should solve something they think is a problem. In other words; what constitutes a 'problem' is highly likely to differ from person to person, from competency type to competency type, or even people of the same competency type. To be Competency in enneagram terms means to remove themselves from what they are experiencing to retain what they believe is an objective stance of what they are engaging with- they remove the 'personal'. This means different things for the types 1, 3, and 5. This has nothing to do (directly, anyway) with competition- just because you are objective, or competitive, or problem-solving, that alone DOES NOT MEAN you are competency core. E6s. E7, E8s, are also very geared towards what we would think is 'problem solving' in day-to-day. Competency Triad is not something you do- what you have demonstrated doing is immersing yourself in your experiences, in a piece of information, order to find a truth. TLDR; Enneagram Competency and everyday competency are different things. Are you Ennea-Competency? No. Are you day-to-day competency? Yes, and in an sp manner (down to levels of health).

I have given your tritype as 459 (and I know many may disagree) and if I were to go through all of them again one by one this will become very long, but I can support each and every one type in that triad for you. You are only 6 or 1 behaviourally (again, motivations, not just behaviour)- and these things that I have seen and you yourself have expressed weren't just one time things, they have remained stable throughout the time I have known you, stable enough that I am confident that this is a part for your natural motivational personality schema instead of something temporary due to life changes or personal tumult. Talks like it, acts like it, sounds like it- I type you as E4w5 core.

There are definitely more, but this was sudden and I didn't have time to compile thoughts and evidence and fork through your old posts, but this is a gist of at least a few points of my thoughts of your core type.

 

[Coriolis]

Types I have tested most frequently as, is 5 and 4. I am quite sure my core is a withdrawn type, despite being extroverted in MBTI. I am absolutely unsure of my gut type, but I cannot be triple withdrawn I think...

I got into a conversation with [MENTION=35920]Earl Grey[/MENTION] again after a while of ignoring typology. He brought up once again that it's not behavior that makes you a specific type. It is your motivation. We got into a conversation about my motivations. Since I am horrible at explaining it, if he wants to elaborate it again. Please.

I will post a few comments that occur to me readily, but may post later upon further reflection. This is mostly about core 4. I agree with Earl Grey on 4 over 5 for you. Ever since we first started interacting here, it was pretty clear that you were NOT 5 core, though I wouldn't have ventured a guess as to which you were because (1) we hardly knew each other, and (2) my knowledge of enneagram more limited then. I still have a better grasp of MBTI, but am getting better at enneagram. My approach to typing in this system often is based on process of elimination: deciding which types someone is likely not to be, then looking at what is left. Without going through the 7 others, 5 is one I would eliminate as a core, though I can accept more readily as a fix. What you have shared reflects a desire to know and understand, and one more for its own sake than, say, to accomplish some goal, which is 5-like to be sure. I don't see the same drive for competency, though, that usually characterizes this type. You mention here wanting to be the best at things, but I would not have had that impression based on our interactions and your posting. I see more a desire for self-sufficiency, being able to handle whatever comes along on your own, rather than the drive for sheer mastery, whatever the reasons. (This is the point where your knowledge of yourself will overrule mine if I got this part wrong.)

In any case, it is a common mistake is to type based on behavior, whether in enneagram, MBTI, or other systems. As I have said many times, any type can exhibit any behavior. We must analyze why they are doing it and how, if we are to distinguish one type from another. In enneagram, this focuses on motivation; in MBTI, more on cognitive processes - how we think, handle information and make decisions. The desire for artistic self-expression, for instance, can look 4-ish, but I would ask: why do you want this? What does it do for you? Individuals of various types exhibit this desire, and act upon it in different ways.

I will post more later when I have a chance.

 

[Pionart]

Are you ashamed of yourself, or afraid of the world?

 

[Maou]

Are you ashamed of yourself, or afraid of the world?

Do I have to pick one?

 

[Pionart]

Do I have to pick one?

You can pick afraid/ashamed/angry at yourself/the world. Or a generalised and underexpressed version.

If multiple fit, which fits the best?

 

[Maou]

You can pick afraid/ashamed/angry at yourself/the world. Or a generalised and underexpressed version.

If multiple fit, which fits the best?

I would pick neither lol. I am not afraid of the world, or ashamed of myself. Disappointed maybe, irritaited at how things play out. But its never constant.

 

[Pionart]

I would pick neither lol. I am not afraid of the world, or ashamed of myself. Disappointed maybe, irritaited at how things play out. But its never constant.

Well then youre probably not a 4 or a 5. It sounds like youre in the anger triad.

 

[Maou]

Well then youre probably not a 4 or a 5. It sounds like youre in the anger triad.

Lol how so? Im sure every type can be angry, and my anger isnt my motivation for doing things. You did ask me to choose, and how does that even relate to 4 and 5? Afraid of the world can be 6, and ashamed can be 9.

 

[Pionart]

Lol how so? Im sure every type can be angry, and my anger isnt my motivation for doing things. You did ask me to choose, and how does that even relate to 4 and 5? Afraid of the world can be 6, and ashamed can be 9.

Shame is based in the shame triad which is 2, 3 and 4. Yes 6 can be afraid of the world but 5 moreso. 6 has generalised fear and tries to hold security. Every type can be angry but 8, 9 and 1 are more focused on anger than fear or shame.

 

[Maou]

Shame is based in the shame triad which is 2, 3 and 4. Yes 6 can be afraid of the world but 5 moreso. 6 has generalised fear and tries to hold security. Every type can be angry but 8, 9 and 1 are more focused on anger than fear or shame.

You expected to figure out my type with an overly simplistic question?

 

[Pionart]

You expected to figure out my type with an overly simplistic question?

Anger/shame/fear is like the core concept in enneagram isnt it? You should align with a basic question like that.

 

[Maou]

Anger/shame/fear is like the core concept in enneagram isnt it? You should align with a basic question like that.

That is one minor aspect of it. You need all the aspects to understand the full picture that is a type. I mean, its also about childhood messages, motivation, gut/heart/mind, fear, virture, etc.

You also can't type someone through reduction of the enneagram theory, into overly simplistic classifications. What makes me angry? What makes me fearful? What makes me shameful? Why do I feel that way? What causes it? These are the questions you should ask all at once, and even then honesty and self awareness varies by person. People think one thing, but are the opposite in reality without realizing it too.

Anyways, not trying to rag on your typing method, but I've already asked myself these questions, and then some. These are the two types I've whittled it down to.

 

[Vendrah]

Since Ive been here for two years now, I figured I would make another Type me thread with my more thorough understanding of enneagram, as well as more people knowing me. My profile tends to have a flavour of the month. I usually put what others have typed me as, or what I got on tests.

Types I have tested most frequently as, is 5 and 4. I am quite sure my core is a withdrawn type, despite being extroverted in MBTI. I am absolutely unsure of my gut type, but I cannot be triple withdrawn I think...

I got into a conversation with [MENTION=35920]Earl Grey[/MENTION] again after a while of ignoring typology. He brought up once again that it's not behavior that makes you a specific type. It is your motivation. We got into a conversation about my motivations. Since I am horrible at explaining it, if he wants to elaborate it again. Please.

I think I doubt my identity too much to feel comfortable in one type for too long. I also tend to have an obsessive focus on expressing my identity, especially in art. This part of me is largely unexpressed on the forum, and usually something I don't share easily. My behavior, really doesn't reflect my motivations, to say in the least. I am a lot more sensative, and private than I let on. I don't know if I am afraid of being myself, or if I don't think myself worthy of others. Or even what myself actually is.

If I had to default to a type, it would probably be 5. Yet at the same time, I am not that concerned with competency as I thought originally. I want to be the best at everything, but also be different. I want to leave an impact on the world no one else has yet. I feel the way I can do that, is in art and writing. I don't really care for people, but at the same time like recognition, and then I get uncomfortable when people accept me, as if I was not worthy or too flawed to be accepted. I tend to drift in and out of communities, and I usually always tend to find myself an outcast in every single one. Even if I try joining an echo chamber, I find myself positioning in a way that stands out. It's no secret that I am commonly misunderstood either, and can be reactive. I am very individualistic, and even forget I can ask for help most of the time. If I stayed away from politics, people's impressions of me are night and day.

So if you were to type me, what would you say my core was between 4 and 5, and what would be my gut type if anything?

Feel free to add any instinctual varients. And please, try not to just write the type, but why as well. Even if it is just a single sentence. I need something to mull over.

Do you really need to determine one? Specially taking account that you have two "top" types that are blessed by the wing theory.

I mean, its not like a 4 with a strong 5 wing or a 5 with a strong 4 wing are that much different.

You might see strong differences because a lot of 5w4 not only scores but also have other strong enneagram types that are not supported by wing theory, although it might be supported by enneagram triads, so someone with a strong second "fix", like a heart/head/gut fix, might be kind of different due to a "weaker" wing and a strong fix. That is why you will get 4w5 characters quite different from 5w4 characters.

So in my opinion you should just pick the one you like the most, the one that looks cooler to you, because they are not that much different.

 

[Luminous]

Do you really need to determine one? Specially taking account that you have two "top" types that are blessed by the wing theory.

I mean, its not like a 4 with a strong 5 wing or a 5 with a strong 4 wing are that much different.

You might see strong differences because a lot of 5w4 not only scores but also have other strong enneagram types that are not supported by wing theory, although it might be supported by enneagram triads, so someone with a strong second "fix", like a heart/head/gut fix, might be kind of different due to a "weaker" wing and a strong fix. That is why you will get 4w5 characters quite different from 5w4 characters.

So in my opinion you should just pick the one you like the most, the one that looks cooler to you, because they are not that much different.

Ah, but they are different!

You could ask yourself whether you are:
More self revealing or secretive?
Too attached to emotions or too guarded against?
Reactive or withdrawn?
Are you more focused on feeling or thinking?
Which do you fear more: insignificance or helplessness?

 

[Vendrah]

Ah, but they are different!

You could ask yourself whether you are:
More self revealing or secretive?
Too attached to emotions or too guarded against?
Reactive or withdrawn?
Are you more focused on feeling or thinking?
Which do you fear more: insignificance or helplessness?

I dont think you got my point... Enneagram type 4 and enneagram type 5 are indeed very different.
But for a person who scores high on both and sees herself with both characteristics in traits, motivations, etc... Being a 5w4 or a 4w5 does not make a big difference. For the person, not for the types.

Actually, this is even a straight reasoning why wing-theory does not works that good and proper: Types on their own does not usually carry the characteristics of their neighbour wings and nor there is really a strong reasoning for "pairing". As I explained before, but perhaps I should try to repeat with different words, real and fictional characters of types 5w4 and 4w5 are somewhat different because they dont have a strong wing in average. If they did, they would look like a lot each other and discerning type 5w4 from 4w5 would be difficult in a lot of cases. Actually, I dont remember what is the most common 2nd result for type 4, but for type 5 is type 1 as far as I remember.

And for the OP, [MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION], if you have a clear preference for thinking I would answer 5w4 straight away. As I said in this thread here, with some arguments:
MBTI and Enneagram combinations (most common, usual, rare and incompatible)

"Type 4: Must be a clear I or have borderline on I/E. Must be a clear F or have borderline on F/T. Very likely (although not exactly a must) be a clear N or have borderline on N/S.
Type 5: Must be a clear I or have borderline on I/E. Must be a clear T or have borderline on T/F."

For ENTP, E/I borderline is predicted for both, and for type 4 a borderline T/F is predicted. Being extrovert (which is more likely and precisely ambivert) doesnt help deciding between type 4 or 5, both have Introversion traits in their own way.
For INTP, borderline T/F is predicted for type 4.
If there is no borderline and clear preference for thinking, I would recommend type 5w4 then.

I would like to observe that Neuroticism boosts type 4 scores up. As [MENTION=35566]Luminous[/MENTION] have been saying for a longer time than I, there are a lot of mistyped 4s (although her reasons might be different than mine), and I do believe it is because of Neuroticism. I dont think that enneagram should take Neuroticism characteristics in consideration (and as that I would say that every type should have their own anger, anxiety, depression and the other 2 sub-traits of neuroticism I forgot, instead of having one of these traits related to a certain type. They do that in anger, but not that much for other traits, such as associating anxiety with a specific type).

However, reading the first post, thinking of only motivations, I do see more type 4 than type 5 in terms of motivations, because, beg my pardon, but I havent seen you that much active in the knowledge-seeking department, but I have indeed detect the identity thing you are talking about. That is my impression.
So, I would firstly say that this decision is not truly important because 5 with a very strong 4 wing and 4 with a very strong wing 5 are very similar. So, if you are scoring the preference for thinking that much clear on dichotomy, I would recommend type 5, if you are not, I would recommend type 4.

 

[Coriolis]

That is one minor aspect of it. You need all the aspects to understand the full picture that is a type. I mean, its also about childhood messages, motivation, gut/heart/mind, fear, virture, etc.

You also can't type someone through reduction of the enneagram theory, into overly simplistic classifications. What makes me angry? What makes me fearful? What makes me shameful? Why do I feel that way? What causes it? These are the questions you should ask all at once, and even then honesty and self awareness varies by person. People think one thing, but are the opposite in reality without realizing it too.

I can see the logic in equating type determination to asking simply whether a person is driven more by fear, anger, or shame. The answer is usually not simple, though, as all of us are influenced by all three to some degree, which can be situational. It is often more effective to come at the question more indirectly, as most type questionnaires do. It's like asking whether someone is an auditory, visual, or kinesthetic learner. Unless they know themselves very well, they will have to ask a series of questions to get at the answer.

And for the OP, [MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION], if you have a clear preference for thinking I would answer 5w4 straight away. As I said in this thread here, with some arguments:
MBTI and Enneagram combinations (most common, usual, rare and incompatible)

"Type 4: Must be a clear I or have borderline on I/E. Must be a clear F or have borderline on F/T. Very likely (although not exactly a must) be a clear N or have borderline on N/S.
Type 5: Must be a clear I or have borderline on I/E. Must be a clear T or have borderline on T/F."

I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but even if it is accurate, I still favor 4 over 5 for [MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION]. I still see her as I more than E, so she is at least borderline on that. If you ask her, she will probably reply that she favors thinking, and I wouldn't contest that she values logical, objective thought, especially when it comes to problem-solving. In watching her interactions here, though, she seems to reach for F first, especially when discussing important or serious things. So, again, borderline T/F. There is a "coolness" to 5 cores that I don't see in her. That may be a way of saying the same thing, in even more impressionistic terms.

 

[Vendrah]

I can see the logic in equating type determination to asking simply whether a person is driven more by fear, anger, or shame. The answer is usually not simple, though, as all of us are influenced by all three to some degree, which can be situational. It is often more effective to come at the question more indirectly, as most type questionnaires do. It's like asking whether someone is an auditory, visual, or kinesthetic learner. Unless they know themselves very well, they will have to ask a series of questions to get at the answer.


I'm not sure I agree with all of this, but even if it is accurate, I still favor 4 over 5 for [MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION]. I still see her as I more than E, so she is at least borderline on that. If you ask her, she will probably reply that she favors thinking, and I wouldn't contest that she values logical, objective thought, especially when it comes to problem-solving. In watching her interactions here, though, she seems to reach for F first, especially when discussing important or serious things. So, again, borderline T/F. There is a "coolness" to 5 cores that I don't see in her. That may be a way of saying the same thing, in even more impressionistic terms.

Nothing that you said disagrees with what I said before. Even if she favours thinking, the reach for F first you describes supports a T/F borderline, which is something that I listed as a "requirement" for Thinkers that have type 4 (as a main type, not as a wing).

If the preference for thinking is very clear, then the reach for F first might be false or related to neuroticism instead, and probably a lot of other type 4 traits are related to neuroticism either rather than the main attributes of type 4 that are independent of Neuroticism, which actually means that the crisis of identity and all of that stuff are somewhat secondary or temporary or both.

 

[Coriolis]

Nothing that you said disagrees with what I said before.

Good, because what I'm not sure I agree with is your theory/indicators for types 4 and 5, not your overall assessment of Maou's core type.

 

[Pionart]

That is one minor aspect of it. You need all the aspects to understand the full picture that is a type. I mean, its also about childhood messages, motivation, gut/heart/mind, fear, virture, etc.

You also can't type someone through reduction of the enneagram theory, into overly simplistic classifications. What makes me angry? What makes me fearful? What makes me shameful? Why do I feel that way? What causes it? These are the questions you should ask all at once, and even then honesty and self awareness varies by person. People think one thing, but are the opposite in reality without realizing it too.

Anyways, not trying to rag on your typing method, but I've already asked myself these questions, and then some. These are the two types I've whittled it down to.

Ok, well the internalise/externalise/repress + anger/shame/fear, is like the foundation that I build my enneagram knowledge on. I'm not an expert on it like I am with Jungian type. So that's all the help I can give.