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Trump vs. Bernie

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That's a thoughtful post. I don't agree with all of it. I think a lot of our issues go back to the corporation. It's not the overlords per se. It's the construct itself that drives things. The corporation is like a shark and all it cares about is profit. I don't know the answer but don't think I've heard any political candidate that has a fix for the issues outlined in this video.

I sure have. I know you sure aren't going to fix any of those things through civility and norms. Bloomberg's not going to do it, I can guarantee that.

I don't see it as an automatic fix, but rather as a move in chess that changes the outcome of the game.
 

Z Buck McFate

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If you cut taxes and keep spending more, it just adds to the country's debt and doesn't improve the overall economic climate except in the short term. Politicians don't know how to stop spending money. In my state, there was a Republican governor who actually tried. He failed (blocked by the Democratic machine) and was voted out of office. The state is in the worst position it's ever been in because the politicians refuse to confront the real issues and stop spending.

I'd responded to a post in which you questioned the honesty/sensibility of advocating a plan that has repeatedly failed. I was expounding on "trickle down economics" and trying to make the point that it isn't necessarily foolish to try something again (that repeatedly hasn't worked in the past) - "fall down 8 times, get up 9" and all that - so long as there's been adequate analysis of why a thing failed and adjustments made. (And I kinda rambled about how "trickle down" fails because in an unregulated state the market consistently causes trickling upwards - and so, in order for "trickle down economics" to work, they'd have to force trickling down by regulating and making sure lion's share of new wealth generated was directed back down to the workers.....but I'm clearly not a financial analyst, I was simply trying to spitball a scenario in which the "trickle down" tax cuts could maybe do what they're 'supposed' to do and provide more opportunities to thrive for lower & middle classes).

tl;dr: I was trying to explain why it isn't necessarily a mark against honesty/sensibility to advocate a plan that has repeatedly failed.
 

Jaguar

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You're not answering my question. You're trying to deflect attention from the issue. Was the idea of a balanced budget important enough for you to cut ties with the Republican party when they created a budget deficit and continued to cut taxes?

Cutting income tax means little to nothing to me. I think I'll quote another NTJ from years ago: "I didn't leave the Republican party, it left me." Both of us were no longer Republicans for the same reason - the party moved too far right.
 
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Cutting income tax means little to nothing to me. I think I'll quote another NTJ from years ago: "I didn't leave the Republican party, it left me." Both of us were no longer Republicans for the same reason - the party moved too far right.

That's not the issue. The issue is if the impact on the federal budget of cutting taxes matters as much to you as the impact of something like Medicare For All on the federal budget. This is why I wish to know how you voted in 2004, which was an election when Trump was not on the ballot when Republicans voted for massive tax cuts, despite a deficit. The President then also entered office with a surplus, by the way, and managed to turn it into a deficit, despite being from the party of "fiscal responsibility." You still won't give me a straight answer as to whether or not you voted to re-elect him once it was already known how he would govern.

Do you show more acquiescence to measures that grow the the deficit but benefit your social class than measures that grow the deficit but benefit other social classes? If so, you are supporting class warfare, same as Sanders, just in the opposite direction. The "we have to balance the budget and we can't do things we can't pay for" is, in that case, just a smokescreen for more class warfare.
 

highlander

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Best debate performance tonight:

  1. Any Klobuchar
  2. Mike Bloomberg
  3. Pete Buttigieg
Last: Bernie Sanders
 
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Best debate performance tonight:

  1. Any Klobuchar
  2. Mike Bloomberg
  3. Pete Buttigieg
Last: Bernie Sanders

tenor.gif
 

Maou

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Best debate performance tonight:

  1. Any Klobuchar
  2. Mike Bloomberg
  3. Pete Buttigieg
Last: Bernie Sanders

That was my same impression. Bloomberg made it feel like a Republican debate though.

Klobuchar continues to be my choice for best Dem.
 

highlander

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I'd responded to a post in which you questioned the honesty/sensibility of advocating a plan that has repeatedly failed. I was expounding on "trickle down economics" and trying to make the point that it isn't necessarily foolish to try something again (that repeatedly hasn't worked in the past) - "fall down 8 times, get up 9" and all that - so long as there's been adequate analysis of why a thing failed and adjustments made. (And I kinda rambled about how "trickle down" fails because in an unregulated state the market consistently causes trickling upwards - and so, in order for "trickle down economics" to work, they'd have to force trickling down by regulating and making sure lion's share of new wealth generated was directed back down to the workers.....but I'm clearly not a financial analyst, I was simply trying to spitball a scenario in which the "trickle down" tax cuts could maybe do what they're 'supposed' to do and provide more opportunities to thrive for lower & middle classes). tl;dr: I was trying to explain why it isn't necessarily a mark against honesty/sensibility to advocate a plan that has repeatedly failed.

I understand what you mean but I tend to believe things that dont work in any other country are not likely to work here. Sanders and Warren havent described how we will make the wealth tax different in the US and why it will work here when it hasn't other places. They are just appealing to popular interests. I trust Sanders more than Warren. I just dont think he is realistic. The bigger issue though is they are both too far on the left. They will lose an election with Trump because moderate democrats, republicans and independents wont vote for them
 

highlander

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That was my same impression. Bloomberg made it feel like a Republican debate though. Klobuchar continues to be my choice for best Dem.
I thought she was especially impressive because she continued to focus on substance and as a moderating influence when the other candidates took potshots at each other. She also didnt talk so much about herself as she has in other debates. Biden seemed to take over that crown.
 

á´…eparted

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They will lose an election with Trump because moderate democrats, republicans and independents wont vote for them

I think this is going to surprise you. I don't mean this in an insulting way (as it's often implied to be) but you are and have consistently been very out of touch with my generation. We have much more say and impact now than we ever had at any point in the past, and this will only increase over time (as is typical as any generation ages).
 
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I understand what you mean but I tend to believe things that dont work in any other country are not likely to work here. Sanders and Warren havent described how we will make the wealth tax different in the US and why it will work here when it hasn't other places. They are just appealing to popular interests. I trust Sanders more than Warren. I just dont think he is realistic. The bigger issue though is they are both too far on the left. They will lose an election with Trump because moderate democrats, republicans and independents wont vote for them

Guess which candidate won independents in Nevada? Most independents are associated with one party or the other. Candidates that compete for independents are not competing for the same pool of people. I suspect at least some of the independents in that primary are a lot like the people that voted for Nader in 2004. Plenty of independents are not independents because they're more moderate, but the opposite.

I also think moderate Democrats will get behind him when he becomes the nominee because they don't like Trump. I don't include former Republicans who claimed they were "never Trump" in that camp; I meant actual Democrats.
 

Maou

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I thought she was especially impressive because she continued to focus on substance and as a moderating influence when the other candidates took potshots at each other. She also didnt talk so much about herself as she has in other debates. Biden seemed to take over that crown.

Yeah, I felt she had more substance, more.plan. I felt that way since she first got on stage, and after reading her policies Democrats missed out on not supporting her. Even if she looks like she does cocaine.
 

highlander

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I think this is going to surprise you. I don't mean this in an insulting way (as it's often implied to be) but you are and have consistently been very out of touch with my generation. We have much more say and impact now than we ever had at any point in the past, and this will only increase over time (as is typical as any generation ages).
No I very much understand why your generation wants tuition forgiveness, free college, free medical care and so on. These are all huge financial costs and burdens. I understand the appeal of what he is saying to certain audiences just like I understand the appeal of trump for others. I just think he is impractical. I dont want to pay for what Sanders wants and I dont think a majority of the country does either. Steyer's core message about corporations and their influence being the core issue is dead on. I could be right and I could be wrong. We'll see.
 

highlander

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One thing I just realized is Biden is a lifelong stutterer. It explains much of the verbal lapses during the debates. I thought it was the beginnings of mental decline. I wish I knew this earlier.
 
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Why the establishment can't bank on moderate voters consolidating against Sanders

It might seem like “moderate” voters could consolidate behind one alternative to thwart Sanders’s path to the nomination. That’s possible, but one thing it assumes is that voters understand politics in ideological terms. And many don’t — political scientists have long found that most of the public does not fit into neat ideological boxes.

It didn't happen in the Republican primaries last time, either.

But not all scholars are convinced that Americans are becoming more ideologically sophisticated. Political scientists Donald Kinder and Nathan Kalmoe found that most people still have opinions that do not track as consistently conservative or liberal and many still call themselves moderates or independents. For example, while most Democrats agree with mainly liberal policy positions, many Democrats overall still identify as moderates (even a few as conservatives). Meanwhile, Republicans might agree on ideological labels more than Democrats, but that doesn’t mean they hold more consistent policy positions.

Wow, looks like my crazy socialist podcast is right about something else. Unsurprising, because their takes are so much better than the ones I hear on corporate media.

Then again, there’s no reason Sanders can’t win the primary with a mix of ideological and not-so-ideological voters. Because even though Sanders does very well among very liberal voters, that doesn’t mean that his appeal is limited to them. Many voters see Sanders as electable, and he polls pretty well in head-to-head polls against Trump. And others might like Sanders’s consistency and authenticity, even if they don’t always agree with him. Take Sanders’s message of fighting against corruption and socioeconomic inequality. It is a pretty popular idea, and one that Democratic nominees have run on previously.

Polls

I remember some polls had him outperforming Clinton in a general last time, as well. The "electability" argument doesn't seem to have much to do with data.
 

á´…eparted

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No I very much understand why your generation wants tuition forgiveness, free college, free medical care and so on. These are all huge financial costs and burdens. I understand the appeal of what he is saying to certain audiences just like I understand the appeal of trump for others. I just think he is impractical. I dont want to pay for what Sanders wants and I dont think a majority of the country does either. Steyer's core message about corporations and their influence being the core issue is dead on. I could be right and I could be wrong. We'll see.

No, actually. This actually captures what I mean rather well. Those things, the medicare for all, student loans, college, those are all things we and the country needs. The latter two has nuance, but the first is cut and try. They are decades old festering wounds that is going to have an impact when it's finally lanced, but if we don't, it will continue to spread and continue to get worse. This isn't an issue of want, and this reads like we're being viewed as being motivated purely by being in bad situations and wanting someone else to solve our problems. It's a very shallow take. The medicare for all is obvious, but student loans are becoming increasingly deadly, as people do commit suicide over the inescapable nature of them. The total psychological toll on my generation is crazy. It also illustrates a significant lack of empathy into how difficult and in some cases life threatening these things are. The bold highlights one of the biggest driving forces behind us, people coldly responding "well, I don't want to pay for that". This is purely rhetorical, so don't answer, but why? What difference does it make, we already pay taxes, why are these things off the table?

The reason I say your out of touch and long have been is you don't get the reasons why our generation is sick to the teeth of the way things in this country have been run. The major ticket issues like medicare for all are merely the tangible end results of decades of corruption and inaction that have to be fixed. They are not the bedrock driving forces. It's all of the stuff that led to these problems. Since childhood, we have watched leader after leader after leader break the law, and suffer very little consequences for it. We've witnessed so many C-suite level executives get away with significant financial crime with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. We watched wall street get completely bailed out in a very expensive and gentle manner and little to no fixes and politicans turn a blind eye to their immoral and illegal actions. We've watched the republican party become increasingly corrupt, craven, dishonest, and downright dangerous since birth. We've watch the democrats cave to them time and time again out of a premium for "reaching across the aisle" and operating in a moral vacuum as if they are reasonable with good intentions. We are absolutely tired of dishonest, disingenuous leaders who don't actually solve problems, who don't actually fight, who don't actually operate with intellectual integrity and stand for moral principle on what is right with the human condition at the forefront. Countless of us have been psycholgically abused by our parents who supported the horrible leaders, and we saw past it but were powerless to do anything. We have very little reason to believe or trust the vast majority of leaders because their actions defy their words constantly. There are huge disconnects. It is not hard for us to not only see through the bs, but also easy for us to do the research to find out what is actually going on. For most of our lives it's all we could do. things have become so bad that many who didn't now have out of sheer necessity. We've been continuously treated like children well into adulthood, bemoaned by older generations for being too immature, too lazy, and refusing to get in line with how the world works as they see it. We are SICK of trying to explain these things, trying to get people to understand, only for it to fall on deaf ears and be treated like children in patronizing manners at the best end of it. Many of us don't tolerate it anymore. I certainly don't.

I was raised by a cloaked neo-nazi father. Because of him and that side of the family, I have seen through the republican party and what it actually is since childhood. I've had arguments with my father since age 6 over it (as much as a 6 year can argue anyway). I learned a lot dealing with and hearing his authoritarian cruelty. I disowned him over a year ago in part precisely because of his hatred and views. None of what is currently happening with them is much of a surprise to me at the end of the day. This party is evil incarnate, and we have watched the democratic party attempt to reason with them, make nice with them, and adapt to them and it never worked. It is infuriating when older generations refuse to see this and knee-jerk react to words like socialism and immediately jump to "how will this be paid for?" as if it is somehow equivalent to these things or is of primacy. We have observed such a disgraceful intellectual laziness from them as if its nothing more than an input-response mentality because it's how things have always been. The democrats in bulk have refused to see the writing on the wall with the GOPs dishonesty and cheating nature. We can't take it anymore. Literally. Climate change alone makes it impossible for us not to seek radical change in the way government runs. It's just one issue. Our generation cannot stand moderates because moderates won't take the steps needed to address climate change properly, as they will just fall and cave to the GOP like the always have, at best. If climate change isn't addressed we are all toast, and we have no reason to believe at all that moderates are going to do anything productive about it and would fail if they tried. A lot of us will be showing up to the polls because this is a do or die moment.

We don't want free stuff. We want honesty, intellectual integrity, to stop being treated like inept children with no level-headedness, and leaders who actually demand accountability. We want corrupt individuals and organizations to actually be stopped - meaningfully and lastingly stopped - and prevented from causing problems anymore. Because at this point, we have seen almost none of this for our entire lives, and if it continues, a significant portion of us will perish.

So, again, you're out of touch. I hope you start to notice and understand what is at stake here for all of us (not just my generation) throughout this year. I hope you do, and I think you might, and you do get a minority of the portions. It just hasn't come together yet.
 

rav3n

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Maybe these statistics might help highlander realize the negative impact of rising educational costs and that demand in the job market for individuals without degrees has shrunk since a lot has been outsourced.

How much college tuition has increased from 1988 to 2018

Students at public four-year institutions paid an average of $3,190 in tuition for the 1987-1988 school year, with prices adjusted to reflect 2017 dollars. Thirty years later, that average has risen to $9,970 for the 2017-2018 school year. That’s a 213 percent increase.

The difference is stark at private schools as well. In 1988, the average tuition for a private nonprofit four-year institution was $15,160, in 2017 dollars. For the 2017-2018 school year, it’s $34,740, a 129 percent increase.
 
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I have a confession to make that I think would surprise some people. My main reasons for supporting Bernie Sanders actually have nothing to do with "free stuff." It isn't about free college, student loan forgiveness (which I have reservations about despite having a fuckton of it), or even Medicare for All.

It has more to do with Bernie's stances on a few things that are formative to my political development. It might seem like ancient history to many, but I think his opposition to the Iraq War and the Patriot Act are really the things that have won me over. Those were not popular stances at the time. I think it shows a great deal of courage and integrity and speaks volumes to his character. His primary success shows me that we've come along way since 2004, and that's very encouraging and energizing. I think there's still too many in the Democratic party who I don't really trust when it comes to facing similar issues in the future. I don't think we've really ever dealt with as a country with the mistakes we made during that time, and but I think with him as President, we might. It convinces me that politics is something worth giving a shit about again. I like his stances on the Middle East and that he just straight up called Bibi exactly what he is.

I think with him as President, I could actually feel proud of this country. I'd feel like we'd be a place worth living and the model for the world we always claim we are. We wouldn't just be a place less shitty, but maybe actually the great country we're supposed to be.

The stuff about M4A, the "free stuff", the fight about corporate greed and all the rest are just awesome bonuses. I don't care that corporate media despises him because they helped get us into this mess in the Middle East in the first place. Sure, Sanders makes some bold promises, and I have no doubt that he will not be able to fully deliver on many of them, but I feel like he also has a lot of blunt honesty that I really respect and value.
 
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