Trump vs. Bernie

[á´…eparted]

Why not join the DSA if you want to make a difference, if you haven't already? It'd do more good than picking fights with the administrators of online forums.

The reason I said this to Highlander (and I hope he responds), is because he is the owner of this website, and I hope he changes his mind. My anger and indignance (as is anyone elses) is justified. He is and should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. All leaders should be. It is unconscionable to me that he is considering voting for trump over anyone else. I think he needs to spend more time researching the moves and actions Trump and his administration make on the day to day and week to week levels before he decides how to vote. It is not hard- not even a little bit -to see the actions being taken are a direct line to a fascist dictatorship and that no matter what we HAVE to put someone else in the office, or our lives will be in grave danger.

I don't do anything with politics in real life because I am A. too sick and B. not equip for it. The best I can and do do is talk to people I know personally, and step in when I come across something in public (such as unplugging the TV's set to fox news in Burger King two weeks ago).

 

[Maou]

The problem is that the entire reason why a M4A system is even being proposed is because our current system isn't working either. What do you do then? Stay with the current system in which over half the population is one medical emergency away from being broke, or where everyday people have to make a choice between deciding to eat or getting necessary medicines?

If we stayed put on everything because there was a possibility of failure, we'd never venture out and try to fix anything, and right now the healthcare system is fundamentally broken. We spend more and get less for our money than other "developed" nations, yet we have this warped perception that there is nobility in our suffrage because somehow it's better to suffer by the sweat of your own brow versus taking a handout from the government (keep in mind, the fundamental purpose of government is to work in the interest of its citizens as a whole, not for just a segment of the population).

I never said stay put, just that Bernie isn't going to do anything people believe he is going to do. Even if he gets elected, and tries to fix it. It don't believe it will produce the results people expect. He will be mediocre at best.

I also think that government socialized medicine, should compete with private medicine.

 

[Maou]

The reason I said this to Highlander (and I hope he responds), is because he is the owner of this website, and I hope he changes his mind. My anger and indignance (as is anyone elses) is justified. He is and should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. All leaders should be. It is unconscionable to me that he is considering voting for trump over anyone else. I think he needs to spend more time researching the moves and actions Trump and his administration make on the day to day and week to week levels before he decides how to vote. It is not hard- not even a little bit -to see the actions being taken are a direct line to a fascist dictatorship and that no matter what we HAVE to put someone else in the office, or our lives will be in grave danger.

I don't do anything with politics in real life because I am A. too sick and B. not equip for it. The best I can and do do is talk to people I know personally, and step in when I come across something in public (such as unplugging the TV's set to fox news in Burger King two weeks ago).

Highlander can do whatever he wants. He isn't a "leader" either. He literally just owns the website. You're being extremly dramatic.

And no, people have plenty of good reasons to vote for Trump if they at all pay attention to the positives like job growth, and rise in wages. You know, stuff that is tangible to the voter directly. Not ideological victories.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't do anything with politics in real life because I am A. too sick and B. not equip for it. The best I can and do do is talk to people I know personally, and step in when I come across something in public (such as unplugging the TV's set to fox news in Burger King two weeks ago).

I can't speak to your health, but I think it's far more productive to do things like canvass and phone bank for people you do support (and, depending on your health, given that you are ENFJ, you might be very good at it), rather than get into this here with the admin, or unplugging TVs in restaurants (also, MSNBC is just as bad; they give more airtime to "never Trump" Republicans than actual progressives, which probably explains why my Dad wants to vote for Bloomberg). Admins of these places can and will do whatever they want. That's just the way it is.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Who will be passing Medicare For All? You can't possibly think because a Senator may be a Democrat, they are automatically for it.

They can face primaries if they don't fall in line. Same shit Republicans have been doing for decades. It hasn't been possible before for Democrats because they've been too based in bullshit neoliberal "third way" politics. Now that they face competition from the left, the equation has changed.

This generation of leftist activists is learning how to play the game. I'm very impressed by what I've been seeing; there's a solid understanding of and willingness to engage in strategy rather than just retreating to the purity of theory. It's a far cry from my college days.

They also understand that the election is the beginning, not the end. Something people really didn't grasp with Obama.

 

[Stigmata]

I never said stay put, just that Bernie isn't going to do anything people believe he is going to do. Even if he gets elected, and tries to fix it. It don't believe it will produce the results people expect. He will be mediocre at best.

I also think that government socialized medicine, should compete with private medicine.

What makes him different than any other politician in that respect? Really, campaign promises are really just a wishlist subject to come to fruition based on the whim of the other branches of government.

 

[Maou]

What makes him different than any other politician in that respect? Really, campaign promises are really just a wishlist subject to come to fruition based on the whim of the other branches of government.

He isn't, thats why I am not voting for him. I am looking for people who are not politicians with empty promises. Compare him to Trump, and his "Wishlist". Look at how many of his wishes he managed to attempt or accomplish. More than I have ever seen, since I followed politics. Whether or not you agree with what he is done, doesn't mean that Trump didn't accomplish more than most.

 

[á´…eparted]

I can't speak to your health, but I think it's far more productive to do things like canvass and phone bank for people you do support (and, depending on your health, given that you are ENFJ, you might be very good at it), rather than get into this here with the admin, or unplugging TVs in restaurants (also, MSNBC is just as bad).

Phone banking (or canvasing in person) would emotionally crush me, it might be productive, but not everyone is cut out for it, and it actually plays against my strengths.

Admins of these places can and will do whatever they want. That's just the way it is.

Sure, but am I wrong for speaking out? no.

 

[highlander]

I'm on marketplace insurance with a $3,000 deductible and I have to pay all lab costs and we will see about my second doctor visit. My last plan only paid for one a year. I went a second time this year. I have no luxury of choosing "the best" doctor, but choose from those who accept the insurance. I will never have best of care and my lifespan will be greatly shortened because of it. I can't even imagine what is going to happen with nursing home care. I'm pretty much on the Sylva Plath EOL care plan.

More people are like me than you and we each get one vote.

Edit: to clarify potential assumptions - universal health care needs to be taken further than what is available now. Without the meager access given the poor they would have none. It's better than the non insurance I and others like me had most of our lives.

I'm not against the whole thing. I'm against not having another option. From that perspective, my opinions align better with the other candidates.

I have a high deductible plan today. That's my choice. I would like to retain choice.

This is an article about socialized medicine. It uses UK as an example. I can see there are pros and cons but the one that stands out to me is the UK "ranked 10th out of 11 countries in the healthcare outcomes". This is another article that talks about Medicare for All.

When I was in my 20s, I had a health issue. At the time, I was in an HMO. The doctors I was allowed to see were restricted. The specialist I saw was not good and his office was like an assembly line. I then had a relative who got stomach cancer. His doctor said he needed to get his life in order - that it was fatal. Luckily there was a doctor in the family who recommended the top specialist in the city. That specialist cured him and he lived another 25 years.

I don't want to prevent society as a while to get access to healthcare and paying more for that sounds worthwhile. I just want to be able to go to the best person I can when I'm sick and I don't want the bureaucracy of our federal or state governments to get in the way because they have a history of fucking things up and not running things efficiently.

The reason Sanders won't win a general election is that there are too many moderates out there like me who think he is too liberal - his views are too extreme. College for free? Wipe out all student debt? Healthcare for all? It's ridiculous. How will we pay for all that??

 

[Jaguar]

They can face primaries if they don't fall in line. Same shit Republicans have been doing for decades. It hasn't been possible before for Democrats because they've been too based in bullshit neoliberal "third way" politics. Now that they face competition from the left, the equation has changed.

Do you realize why the ACA still exists? Do you realize why millions of people still have pre-existing condition protection? One person is responsible for it all. One. The man who chose not to "fall in line" with his party. And it still eats up Trump inside to this day. I find the words "falling in line" practically un-American. But that's merely my opinion, which I'm entitled to.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm not against the whole thing. I'm against not having another option. From that perspective, my opinions align better with the other candidates.

I have a high deductible plan today. That's my choice. I would like to retain choice.

This is an article about socialized medicine. It uses UK as an example. I can see there are pros and cons but the one that stands out to me is the UK "ranked 10th out of 11 countries in the healthcare outcomes". This is another article that talks about Medicare for All.

The source for that looks to be this study, as far as I can tell: New 11-Country Study: U.S. Health Care System Has Widest Gap Between People With Higher and Lower Incomes | Commonwealth Fund

Guess what country is 11? Seems even if Britain isn't perfect, we'd still stand to gain from adopting their model. (And Sweden is 2.)

And yet, GDP spending for healthcare is far higher than anyone else in that study. I would suspect that waste and inefficiencies can occur even in private bureaucracies, like those of private insurers. They also have a vested interested in paying out as little as possible.

The full table, for anyone interested:

The reason Sanders won't win a general election is that there are too many moderates out there like me who think he is too liberal - his views are too extreme. College for free? Wipe out all student debt? Healthcare for all? It's ridiculous. How will we pay for all that??

Why does it even matter how we will pay for it? If we follow the Republican approach to fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets, deficits don't matter.

"You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter,"

Is Cheney wrong in his assessment of Reagan's accomplishments? If not, what's wrong with using that to spend money and invest in people rather than just cutting taxes for the rich?

Also, we already pay way more than anyone else for our healthcare. We can't really afford to pay what we are paying now. It seems that in this case, the unquestioned efficiency of the free market is not sufficient to keep costs down.

If it was a government program, you wouldn't consider it to be successful if costs were more than any other developed country with worse outcomes than any other developed country. So why is it so great and perfect, with no room for improvement just because it's private industry?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Do you realize why the ACA still exists? Do you realize why millions of people still have pre-existing condition protection? One person is responsible for it all. One. The man who chose not to "fall in line" with his party. And it still eats up Trump inside, to this day. I find the words "falling in line" practically un-American. But that's merely my opinion, which I'm entitled to.

He was dying. I wonder if he would have made the same decision if he had re-election to consider.

Besides, it sounds like you are being a tad idealistic.

 

[Jaguar]

He was dying. I wonder if he would have made the same decision if he had re-election to consider.

He wasn't dying when he did this:

He was running for President.

No one needs to be threatened to "fall in line."

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Phone banking (or canvasing in person) would emotionally crush me, it might be productive, but not everyone is cut out for it, and it actually plays against my strengths.

You aren't an ENFJ? How do you know you can't do it if you haven't tried?

You should have seen what I was like 10 years ago. Even then, I canvassed.

Sure, but am I wrong for speaking out? no.

I'm just trying to help.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

He wasn't dying when he did this:

He was running for President.

The ACA was based on a GOP healthcare plan and was still fought against tooth and nail by the Republicans. There is no benefit to "compromise" in today's political environment (and your formerly beloved Republican party had it's part to play in all of this, but hey, they gave you low taxes despite a budget deficit, so no probs for you. Contrary to the lamentations of MSNBC talking heads, the Republican party did not suddenly transform into this with the election of Donald Trump. They were developing along these lines for decades, likely while you still were voting for them.) , unless you value feeling warm and fuzzy about "unity" over actually getting stuff done. I don't think the country is based served by replacing Trump with some bullshit unrealistic idealistic idea of a "unity" President.

 

[FemMecha]

I'm not against the whole thing. I'm against not having another option. From that perspective, my opinions align better with the other candidates.

I have a high deductible plan today. That's my choice. I would like to retain choice.

This is an article about socialized medicine. It uses UK as an example. I can see there are pros and cons but the one that stands out to me is the UK "ranked 10th out of 11 countries in the healthcare outcomes". This is another article that talks about Medicare for All.

When I was in my 20s, I had a health issue. At the time, I was in an HMO. The doctors I was allowed to see were restricted. The specialist I saw was not good and his office was like an assembly line. I then had a relative who got stomach cancer. His doctor said he needed to get his life in order - that it was fatal. Luckily there was a doctor in the family who recommended the top specialist in the city. That specialist cured him and he lived another 25 years.

I don't want to prevent society as a while to get access to healthcare and paying more for that sounds worthwhile. I just want to be able to go to the best person I can when I'm sick and I don't want the bureaucracy of our federal or state governments to get in the way because they have a history of fucking things up and not running things efficiently.

The reason Sanders won't win a general election is that there are too many moderates out there like me who think he is too liberal - his views are too extreme. College for free? Wipe out all student debt? Healthcare for all? It's ridiculous. How will we pay for all that??

What are the amounts the government is paying into corporations and losing from giving them tax breaks? That's where the money would come from, not the population's income taxes. The idea is that the money given to corporations is large enough that there actually is money to fund social programs.

I do have a concern about government run healthcare. My concern is that in the U.S. the culture in healthcare has been so corrupted by a focus on profits, that's its institutional culture will transfer into governmental programs and there will still be people profiting off of sickness. I would tend to recommend that the first step is to have any company that provides services to vulnerable populations be required by law to be non-profit, so that it's decisions are not beholden to shareholders. This includes pharmaceutical companies.

There needs to be some kind of access to medical care right away for the poor, but I think the flow of money upwards needs to be addressed as well. That is the reason medical costs are artificially inflated in the U.S.

It is interesting the public education has been in place so long without much pushback for its costs, but it is also a vehicle for social control and propaganda. Healthcare can't provide that benefit to the government and so has not been as high a priority, but it does speak to the underlying philosophy of a culture. What is the most fundamental human right: life or property?

 

[á´…eparted]

Wipe out all student debt?

I'll highlight just this for some prospective here.

I have 125k in student loan debt from undergraduate. I took out 95k to attend (an out-of-state state school), and accrued 30k in interest while I was in graduate school (which I went to for free with a stipend). I did this with intention. I decided around age 16 that I wanted to get a PhD, so I sort of did the reverse of medical school (college scholarships, then expensive med school loans), as I had high potential to make a very high earning. As you know, I received a PhD in organic chemistry just as I set out to do.

I unfortunately suffered significant abuse from my adviser during my tenure. After I left, he apparently really went off the rails and began to attack and slander faculty to the point where he was forced into half-time and was on the verge of loosing his tenure (he was department chair for 5 years prior to this too). Turns out, I really was the grounding-lightning rod for him. He managed to back-door his way out of the university so he didn't get any formal marks on his career. Because of his abuse to me, significantly augmented by the exsistential threat of my student loans and need to pay them off, I have suffered severe stress and at this point have C-PTSD. While I continue to try, I am likely too sick to work for the foreseeable future. I will see if I can hold down another job after I get another one.

I need to make at least 80k just to have a standard of living where I can float due to my loans, other bills, and the cost of affordable safe housing. I tried to shortcut the housing while I was in portland making 65k, but my living situation was traumatic and due to my poor mental health it showed that I cannot live with other people and feel safe at the same time. The extreme stress of that, not making enough money, caused me to wind up in the emergency room in August due to extreme pain, which resulted in me needing to quit my job. My job itself was ovewhelming, they did not offer sick days, and only 12 PTO days per year. The health insurance they provided was poor, and I was only fortunate to be grandfathered in to my therapist after it was reduced.

Due to my trauma, I am terrified of working on anything in the scientific field, which I need to do to support myself. I tried for two years and all of these factors against me broke me. I will try again, because I have no choice, but I don't expect it to work out for long. It is not my fault I suffered this abuse or am the way I am. I have done everything in my power to continue, but the loans make it impossible for me to live. If I didn't have them, I would pursue a much more basic career outside of science for a number of years until I am better (if I can get better), but I can't. The pressure of my loans make it hard to sleep, hard to eat, and hard to have hope for a future.

If I am to have any hope for the future, my best bet is to flee the country, and this is just because of the loans by themselves. Abroad, I don't have to pay them because they cannot go after you in other countries. Assuming I can gather enough strength, my intent over the next year is to find a way to save enough money to move to Germany and get a job there. I should be able to get to sufficient German proficiency within the year too. I am fortunate that because of my degree getting permanent residency (while hard) is very doable. Over there, there is enough social support along with not needing to pay my loans that I actually can have hope for the future, and have much better odds of overcoming my trauma. In addition, my loans won't matter anymore unless I have to come back to the US (which I wouldn't, even at gunpoint).

So please, continue to think "It's rediculous". I'm just one of countless people, and I'm one that really has tried with it. At this point there are three options: the loans are canceled, I leave the country, or I die.

Continue, as you do.

 

[Jaguar]

The ACA was kept in place by John McCain. It kept pre-existing condition protections in place for millions of people.

True. Good job, Birdman! Now you get it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

True. Good job, Birdman! Now you get it.

maybe if we banish trump to the phantom zone, republicans will stop being dipshits.

pr@gm@tism @nd r8alism for da winz.

 

[FemMecha]

Here's one other consideration for moderates who think Bernie is too extreme. I think we all realize he won't be able to put all of his programs into place because congress will slow him down. You can safely put him in office and get a more moderate result than what his current positions are. Think of 'concretely applied Bernie' not 'abstract idea Bernie'. It is the safer choice and will produce a more moderate result, probably exactly aligned with people moderately to the left.