The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Virtual ghost]

"A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made."

Some historical perspective is in order:

At the turn of the 20th century, the jewish immigrant had on average $20 in their pockets. Today, jewish Americans are the most successful demographic. This is evidence that upward mobility is very possible through hard work and education.

That depends on how you define self-made.


Most millionaires have to hire a fair amount of people to become millionaires, what means they depend on others and their work to become one. Also they depend on public education for their workers, on police and fire department, on quite a lot of public infrastructure, on legal/law system, on military, perhaps even some tax cuts and subsidies. Therefore in practice there is no such thing as self made millionaire, even American society is way too interconnected for this to happen.

 

[Tomb1]

Ironically, upward mobility in the US falls below zero when offset by the amount of downward mobility.

 

[Jaguar]

Most millionaires have to hire a fair amount of people to become millionaires, what means they depend on others and their work to become one. Also they depend on public education for their workers, on police and fire department, on quite a lot of public infrastructure, on legal/law system, on military, perhaps even some tax cuts and subsidies. Therefore in practice there is no such thing as self made millionaire, even American society is way too interconnected for this to happen.

There are no self-made artists - they're dependent on the people who make the canvas, the brushes, and the paint. There are no self-made musicians - they're dependent on the people who make the instruments they play. I must say, that's some length you're going to in order to grind the talent of individuals into nothingness. Sounds like mind-fucking communism. Or a mind-fucking cult.

 

[ceecee]

Trump adviser Stephen Miller injected white nationalist agenda into Breitbart, investigation reveals | Media | The Guardian

Kinda wish I we could access the posts and threads from three years back when so many people were claiming Stephen Miller was just a garden variety Republican lanyard.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Initially I'd thought of these Trump admin people as ravenous Dogs, but now I think Hyena is more accurate.

 

[Yuurei]

That depends on how you define self-made.


Most millionaires have to hire a fair amount of people to become millionaires, what means they depend on others and their work to become one. Also they depend on public education for their workers, on police and fire department, on quite a lot of public infrastructure, on legal/law system, on military, perhaps even some tax cuts and subsidies. Therefore in practice there is no such thing as self made millionaire, even American society is way too interconnected for this to happen.

Really, no one is entirely 'self-made'.

Even if you own your own small business most people need loans to start, a permit to build a storefront, a business license, supply and transportation contracts. And no one would be capable of accomplishing a thing without infrastructure.

 

[Jaguar]

We're in a post-truth era. Thanks, Donnie.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

We're in a post-truth era. Thanks, Donnie.

Meh, Obama was criticized for making a similar point. Remember "you didn't build that"?

I have to say that if these companies and the billionaires who run them are going to expect public money when they fuck up like they did in 2008, it sure as shit is fair to tax them. Why is it only ok for them to get government handouts, but nobody else?

 

[Jaguar]

Meh, Obama was criticized for making a similar point. Remember "you didn't build that"?

I have to say that if these companies and the billionaires who run them are going to expect public money when they fuck up like they did in 2008, it sure as shit is fair to tax them. Why is it only ok for them to get government handouts, but nobody else?

Meh, Campbell's soup isn't what it used to be. They need new flavors. Remember "Mmm, good"? What is the world coming to. . .

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Meh, Campbell's soup isn't what it used to be. They need new flavors. Remember "Mmm, good"? What is the world coming to. . .

I prefer Progresso.

 

[Jaguar]

I prefer Progresso.

I prefer progress. Yummy.

 

[Totenkindly]

Do we have a new president yet?

I'm stuck here at work.

 

[Jaguar]

Wishful thinking.

 

[Virtual ghost]

There are no self-made artists - they're dependent on the people who make the canvas, the brushes, and the paint. There are no self-made musicians - they're dependent on the people who make the instruments they play. I must say, that's some length you're going to in order to grind the talent of individuals into nothingness. Sounds like mind-fucking communism. Or a mind-fucking cult.

I think you took my post in a too black and white way. Typical first worlder is probably about 2/3 made by itself and 1/3 environment and therefore it isn't self made, since interaction and consequences regarding environment are still a decent chunk of the story. Even if the person gets to decide most of things. However 100% and 0% self-made are impossible categories due to "cause and effect" nature of reality. That is simply how it is and as tech level goes up this dependency will only grow, since you will only need more experts and specialized goods. Personally I fail to see where have I killed individualism completely, interaction isn't the same as "collectivism".



However if you want an honest answer I am more child of something worse than Communism: a war zone. Therefore I advocate for "social mercy and structures" since I know something about not having options that you need but can't have and how sometimes it really isn't your fault (especially since back in a day most of my friends where refugees). Therefore was I to be blamed because my country got openly invaded when I was 6 ? Was it realistic that I do something about it ? To be honest I think only an idiot would say "yes" to both of this. Therefore for me the whole story of being self made is pure arrogance if pushed openly on all channels, especially since that is strategy that completely misses the point in a genuine crisis. For example in the case that I didn't have socialized medicine that worked by duty while bombs where falling on the country there are quite decent odds that I wouldn't be alive today. Life is hairy enough even without people losing basic benefits and guarantee and that can only be advocated by people who don't see the big picture.




As a matter of fact I openly admit that I am not really self made person by fairly good margin and I feel no shame about this (in my environment history simply made sure there are no self made people). In a way this is exactly why modern western values are collapsing just about everywhere at this point, since most of the world values "self-preservation" over being "self made" and for billions there are active struggles in self preservation sphere. My country had 3 devastating wars on it's soil over the last 100 years which have caused quite a bit of devastation and havoc but each time through redistribution we manged to mild out the problems. So calling this "insert bad term" is simply delusional and shortsighted in my book, because thanks to this we are still alive and growing despite the odds (in some stats we even beat the wealthiest countries). Which is why I advocate social back-up systems since the odds are you or people around you are going to need them sooner or later, if not everyday. Country can't go forward if it's people aren't mostly ok and I can't understand that some people don't get it. However since they can't get it or they don't want to get it certain countries are turning their backs on them and that is very active factor of why world order looks as it looks now.




So there is no cult here, only a cold hearted reality a person can't really understand until they go into a city that is mostly leveled by war (or perhaps large natural disaster). Since only there you can see certain truth(s) about how little being self made or truly independent is worth when you really go down to the Earth.

 

[Tellenbach]

Why is it only ok for them to get government handouts, but nobody else?

The government should not be spending money on anything other than national defense and development, maintenance of interstate infrastructure. We could've built a freakin' dome around the whole country with the bailout money.

Obama gave out billions to failed green energy companies like A123 Systems and Solyndra. Each year, Amtrak loses over $1 billion. The reason why bailouts occur is because politicians are bought and paid for. This is why it's a bad idea to raise taxes; the more money sent to Washington, the more money they'll waste.

 

[Virtual ghost]

To be honest with everybody this hunts me, even in everyday life. The more I read post here the more I am beginning to realize how inevitable or likely is that we will have some kind of new Eastern block here. The good number of things that are being advocated here and generally in the west are generally unacceptable here. From very liberal market, to HC individualism or "racism is bad by default". Therefore everyday I see less and less genuine connection between countries here and the so called "free word". Especially since those here that believe in western stuff often just emigrate there while at home you have increasingly nationalistic/socialistic atmosphere.


While ties with Russia are getting much better. (and with China it is already "better than ever")



Croatia's EU Presidency Can Advance Relations between EU and Russia

Large Potential for Cooperation between Croatian and Russian Companies Exists




Cooperation is rising in double digits at this point and that surely will not just end one day. Plus with Trump America completely messed up it's story in these parts. Therefore now America offers an Authoritarian in the same way Russia does. However the Russian one is ok with government programs such a socialized healthcare and similar benefits that people really want to keep. Unlike USA Russia offers relatively cheap energy. Trump said he may not protect us, so many in these parts went straight to the Russians to talk this through in "advance". Trump offers tariffs while Russians investments. With Trump there just isn't any real benefits in trying to meet some types of standards, while with Russians you know where you are.



Also I see that "global" media seem to generally ignore something that "exploded" over here. Which is that Serbia, North Macedonia and Albania are founding their won little trade block down in the Balkans. Since North Macedonia and Albania just got rejected by EU for membership again and they are quite pissed on EU at the moment. However since all 3 countries are ruled by "Ex"Communists they seem to have easy time making foundations for the new little block. However if socialists indeed start to merge countries in the Balkans again that clearly means that Communist Yugoslavia that is currently considered dead could rise from the grave like a undead. On the other hand my country currently has quite pro-western president at the moment but her re-election is getting more and more questionable by the day and socialist will probably win if the trends continue. In this region Turkey is traditionally influential but since it switched towards more pro-eastern positions what shifted the whole region more towards the east (Russia+China).



The other day Russian ambassador was on my local news and said that we have nothing so worry about even if Russia is importing heavy guns into the region. Since Serbia rized military spending for something like 30% over the last 12 months and now it is importing Russian guns for all that money. Highway between Croatian capital and Banja Luka is under active construction ( Banja Luka is Capitol of what is probably most pro-Russian territory in the mainland Europe, the Serbian half of Bosnia). China bought some harbors and airports around. The other day in supermarket I saw that my local ice cream factory that was taken over by Russians now makes new ice cream that has pieces of branded cooky made in Serbia. What is a direct sign of how economic influence is spreading and that with help of Russia and China it is possible to transform pretty much everything here. Russians also took ever a local soft drink company and they beat both Coca-cola and Pepsi in price for quite observable margin. China should build our g5 networks. Also to be honest I haven't seen stock market report in mainstream media for quite some time *at least 6 months". People weren't too interested in that even before but now the whole thing completely stopped, especially since the government and companies bought by foreign governments are over 50% of GDP. So the local stock market probably become kinda pointless. Etc.




So my point is that here you can observe some massive changes that most of the world doesn't really registers, while I don't really see myself as a part of the debate here anymore. I am simply stuck in some different reality than others here. Actually I have started to explore politics in more detail exactly since I saw the tidal wave coming but at this point it is becoming pretty obvious how all of this is going to end. I will drop on the sub-forum from time to time but my quest is basically done.

 

[Jaguar]

I think you took my post in a too black and white way. Typical first worlder is probably about 2/3 made by itself and 1/3 environment and therefore it isn't self made, since interaction and consequences regarding environment are still a decent chunk of the story. Even if the person gets to decide most of things. However 100% and 0% self-made are impossible categories due to "cause and effect" nature of reality. That is simply how it is and as tech level goes up this dependency will only grow, since you will only need more experts and specialized goods. Personally I fail to see where have I killed individualism completely, interaction isn't the same as "collectivism".



However if you want an honest answer I am more child of something worse than Communism: a war zone. Therefore I advocate for "social mercy and structures" since I know something about not having options that you need but can't have and how sometimes it really isn't your fault (especially since back in a day most of my friends where refugees). Therefore was I to be blamed because my country got openly invaded when I was 6 ? Was it realistic that I do something about it ? To be honest I think only an idiot would say "yes" to both of this. Therefore for me the whole story of being self made is pure arrogance if pushed openly on all channels, especially since that is strategy that completely misses the point in a genuine crisis. For example in the case that I didn't have socialized medicine that worked by duty while bombs where falling on the country there are quite decent odds that I wouldn't be alive today. Life is hairy enough even without people losing basic benefits and guarantee and that can only be advocated by people who don't see the big picture.




As a matter of fact I openly admit that I am not really self made person by fairly good margin and I feel no shame about this (in my environment history simply made sure there are no self made people). In a way this is exactly why modern western values are collapsing just about everywhere at this point, since most of the world values "self-preservation" over being "self made" and for billions there are active struggles in self preservation sphere. My country had 3 devastating wars on it's soil over the last 100 years which have caused quite a bit of devastation and havoc but each time through redistribution we manged to mild out the problems. So calling this "insert bad term" is simply delusional and shortsighted in my book, because thanks to this we are still alive and growing despite the odds (in some stats we even beat the wealthiest countries). Which is why I advocate social back-up systems since the odds are you or people around you are going to need them sooner or later, if not everyday. Country can't go forward if it's people aren't mostly ok and I can't understand that some people don't get it. However since they can't get it or they don't want to get it certain countries are turning their backs on them and that is very active factor of why world order looks as it looks now.




So there is no cult here, only a cold hearted reality a person can't really understand until they go into a city that is mostly leveled by war (or perhaps large natural disaster). Since only there you can see certain truth(s) about how little being self made or truly independent is worth when you really go down to the Earth.

Definition: Self-made is when someone who acquires their wealth/success on their own and do not inherit or win it.

Outside this forum, I don't have to deal with anyone who doesn't know the definition.

I have known you are a child of a war zone and that means everything is different. Everything. There is no normal. Abnormal is normal. Or worse - not even knowing what to call normal. I would also gather you are emotionally stunted, perhaps without even realizing to what degree. But that is for another discussion. How we are in the USA is foreign to you. And vice versa. We come from vastly different situations. But that doesn't mean I don't want to hear what you have to say - I find your posts compelling because of how you were raised. Having said that, it doesn't have relevance to such a simple definition of self-made.

I have little patience for those who take a word or expression and manipulate it for political gain. In that regard, I find little difference between Warren and Trump. Like Trump, Warren is sowing division in my country. The "us and them" mentality. She is not running to be president of all Americans, just the Americans who she can get riled up enough to blame another group of Americans for their situation in life.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

inclined to agree with the jungle cat.

examples: the Kardashian sister who started her own cosmetics company with the help of her rich mom's money and connections should not qualify as "self-made", despite some media headlines labelling her as such.

Donnie with the "small loan" of a million dollars should not be considered "self-made"

Apu, who emigrated to Springfield and started his own convenience store largely with his own money and labor, can be considered "self-made".

The machinist I know who started his own machine shop out of his garage with his own money and skills, whilst working a day job as a machinist for a different machine shop, can be considered "self-made". Sure, he got his skills by learning the trade as an apprentice from some more experienced mentor, and no he didn't print the money he used to pay for his materials and tools, but otherwise he had to take the initiative and to exert the labor to see his vision realized.

Beyond that, I don't really care whether a rich person is self-made or not, I care more about what they have to offer to society. It's just a silly label.



this is arguing semantics at this point

 

[Z Buck McFate]

The machinist I know who started his own machine shop out of his garage with his own money and skills, whilst working a day job as a machinist for a different machine shop, can be considered "self-made". Sure, he got his skills by learning the trade as an apprentice from some more experienced mentor, and no he didn't print the money he used to pay for his materials and tools, but otherwise he had to take the initiative and to exert the labor to see his vision realized.

I don't mean to be nitpicky here so much as navel-gazy, but: I want to point out that even this kind of initiative of 'self' - more or less - bears influence from upbringing/childhood environment and the character of one's parents/guardians.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I have little patience for those who take a word or expression and manipulate it for political gain. In that regard, I find little difference between Warren and Trump. Like Trump, Warren is sowing division in my country. The "us and them" mentality. She is not running to be president of all Americans, just the Americans who she can get riled up enough to blame another group of Americans for their situation in life.

I think it's more that you don't want to pay more taxes, even though you'd probably still be really well off if you did.