Bullying

[Giggly]

It goes without saying that the subject at the top of the pecking order indulges in his power by taking or doing whatever he wants, even at the expense of the others below him. Each time that he does this and the lower subject does not like it, it has the potential be become a challenge for the higher position.

We don't think about these things in our daily lives because, for the most part, in the Western World we live rather peacefully, orderly, and cooperatively with each other. So much so that it's very easy to forget. And offensive to suggest.

 

[Anja]

Kyrielle's post reminds me that when children are abused in their homes they usually take one of two paths. They can become the bully or they can carry their victim role into society.

The gift that keeps on giving.

I suppose most of you know where the words "pecking order" comes from. When chickens are in a flock, if they sense a weakness or an injury in another bird, they will continuously peck at that bird until it is dead.

 

[substitute]

It is a crude awakening to find out that people don't like you and want to harm you in some ways.

I don't think that this is "normal" behavior, there is something wrong in those kids.[...] I am convinced that this problem starts from some situation in the bully's past and it's a fairly good guess it has to do with their parents.

Yes it's funny isn't it how the psychological manipulation makes the target believe that they're being bullied because there's something wrong with them, rather than the more obvious (to the adult observer) issue which is that there's something wrong with the BULLY. Normal, healthy people don't need to bully!!

In the case of my daughter she's a bright, pretty, happy and confident kid, she makes friends easily and people like her just for herself. I guess a kid with an inferiority complex feels threatened by that and figures they'll have fun taking away from her all the rewards she's entitled to from being a good person, and making her feel like the good things about her are flaws that are 'why' she gets bullied.

 

[substitute]

A kid bullied me in first grade, but after some encouragement from my mom, I stood up to her and was rarely bullied after that.

For the individual, the best thing they can do is stand up for themselves. It is the most effective and permanent solution. This involves typically getting physical, since it needs to be very direct to be effective. It may create distance between you and others, but it is generally the better solution.

Talking back will get you mocked and laughed at, turning away without saying anything will get you taunted at and laughed at. I guess the best you can do is to be good at something and concentrate on that and then it won't really matter.

These comments look odd together... I wonder why it is that when some people fight back it works, whilst others find it just makes matters worse. I think what makes it worse for my daughter is that when she stood up for herself back at primary school (uh, I think that's equivalent to elementary in the USA) they did just laugh and laugh at her and that memory haunts her and makes her feel utterly powerless.

I remember when my bully lay in wait for me outside my math class. I came out to a huge gang of kids yelling and heckling me and this kid started hitting me. I fought back, damn right I did, and I totally kicked this kid's ass. But this didn't end the bullying for me - it only intensified it. It just gave them more to bully me about - "psycho!" The comment itself didn't bother me, but the fact that everywhere I went people whispered and giggled behind my back and I ended up isolated, that got to me.

I briefly started to become one during a rather intensive bully period in my life. This isn't unusual, actually - it is a typical coping mechanism.

Again, bully or be bullied as I suspected in the OP. That's what i've also done in the past (since leaving school) when I've got a whiff of potential bullying in the air in the workplace I've been all like no, not again, never again, and I've overcompensated.

Anja, I relate to what you're saying and in the past I've always been quick to 'correct' it when I've seen my kids stooping or y'know, putting on that invisible KICK ME sign, taught them to stand up straight with their head up high. I guess though sometimes you can only tell somebody something and hope they take it on board... often with kids because they haven't the wisdom to understand what you're saying though, that advice is useless until much later in life.

It's just so easy to say "rise above it" but a lot harder to do when you spend your whole day walking around with a gang of hecklers behind you who see to it that nobody else will be your friend for fear of getting the same treatment themselves. And it's pretty cold comfort for the parent whose heart is ripped to shreds having to watch their kid go through this...

I've never witnessed someone really succeeding in standing up to a bully actually It might seem to work on the surface, but the gossip directed towards that person and the social exclusion that they can suffer as a result can be worse than any punch that can be thrown thier way.

Again, I have to agree. I think the difference is that you're talking about girl bullying whereas PT (and the other ISTP's) are mainly dealing with boy bullying, and the two are like chalk and cheese. Girl bullying more often doesn't include any actual physical violence, it's all a psychological smear campaign and emotional abuse. And getting physical about it only escalates the problem because there's more to mock you about, since girls aren't "supposed" to do that.

Kyrielle it's interesting that you say it made you turn your back on the world as a cruel place full of cruel people, basically. In my case I never blamed the world, I was well aware that it was 'just them' and they were the ones with the problem. I knew that the other people in school, most of whom didn't bully me, were just scared of being bullied too and that outside of school where those bullies weren't, the world was generally benevolent. Somehow I never lost my innate optimism... but it did become heavily tinged with cynical pragmatism...

 

[Valiant]

seriously YLJ, the aim isn't for her to wind up in a young offenders' prison

she is simply not capable of any of those things and I'm damn pleased she isn't.

I can completely understand that you might have felt justified in what you did but that really is not a viable solution in this case.

However, fighting dirty in the sense of politically dirty, yes I can see that this might be a survival option... it's something I've used since leaving school to fend off the same thing from happening again. but really K isn't capable of that kind of guile, and I don't think that corrupting the sweet personality she has by teaching her violence and manipulation could be considered a successful outcome.

No good comes of bandying words in a conflict IF a person tells a bully something that he dislikes or is offended by, then he will beat the victim and the situation's nothing better for it. Just aim for throat, crotch or eyes and hope to inflict as much damage as possible.

But ofcourse, if she's a really sweet little kid, maybe she should consider changing school. Or bring it up on a PTA meeting and get the other kid(s) kicked out. This option is probably a lot better for girls, since they somehow don't have the same fear of being labeled cowards, snitches etc.

 

[cafe]

These comments look odd together... I wonder why it is that when some people fight back it works, whilst others find it just makes matters worse. I think what makes it worse for my daughter is that when she stood up for herself back at primary school (uh, I think that's equivalent to elementary in the USA) they did just laugh and laugh at her and that memory haunts her and makes her feel utterly powerless.

I remember when my bully lay in wait for me outside my math class. I came out to a huge gang of kids yelling and heckling me and this kid started hitting me. I fought back, damn right I did, and I totally kicked this kid's ass. But this didn't end the bullying for me - it only intensified it. It just gave them more to bully me about - "psycho!" The comment itself didn't bother me, but the fact that everywhere I went people whispered and giggled behind my back and I ended up isolated, that got to me.

I'm wondering how much the bully/victim power dynamic is influenced by the attitudes of authority figures. The kids I was around knew better than to be too overt or over the top with their behavior because they would get in trouble and I also knew that if somebody really hurt me or said something especially cruel to me, my mom would do something like make a scene in the office or call the kid's parents, etc. The schools might pretend they didn't know what was going on, but if a parent complained, they'd feel compelled to address the situation.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

I've never witnessed someone really succeeding in standing up to a bully actually It might seem to work on the surface, but the gossip directed towards that person and the social exclusion that they can suffer as a result can be worse than any punch that can be thrown thier way.

Didn't work that way for myself, I never took anything anyone said about me seriously, infact they were the absolute last thing on my mind after dealing with some of the pricks I've met, it's easy to overcome gossip if you're not sensitive to it, in my last two years of high school I was well known and I didn't even now why really, I did find out people spoke about me alot but I didn't really know what they were saying, mainly cause besides a few select people I kept to myself anyways. Social exclusion doesn't work on those who aren't all that social to begin with.

Also during Junior and Senior year I was quite popular, I think I might have been the most popular kid who didn't say anything in school and that's saying something as my High School was the largest in the county.

 

[substitute]

Social exclusion doesn't work on those who aren't all that social to begin with.

Lucky you!!
For me and my equally extraverted daughter, it's absolutely decimating.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Actually now that I think about it the worst years I had in school were middle school and early High School. The later years were actually pretty sweet. I was friends with football players and everything I met some pretty awesome people that I still keep in touch with in fact. Why am I always ragging on school so much?

 

[substitute]

Maybe it's that old principle, how it takes 100 compliments to undo a single insult. Maybe the bad times were so bad that they shroud the good ones?

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Maybe it's that old principle, how it takes 100 compliments to undo a single insult. Maybe the bad times were so bad that they shroud the good ones?

That makes sense. You're probably right.

 

[ptgatsby]

I remember when my bully lay in wait for me outside my math class. I came out to a huge gang of kids yelling and heckling me and this kid started hitting me. I fought back, damn right I did, and I totally kicked this kid's ass. But this didn't end the bullying for me - it only intensified it. It just gave them more to bully me about - "psycho!" The comment itself didn't bother me, but the fact that everywhere I went people whispered and giggled behind my back and I ended up isolated, that got to me.

These comments look odd together... I wonder why it is that when some people fight back it works, whilst others find it just makes matters worse. I think what makes it worse for my daughter is that when she stood up for herself back at primary school (uh, I think that's equivalent to elementary in the USA) they did just laugh and laugh at her and that memory haunts her and makes her feel utterly powerless.

It depends on the specifics a fair bit, but as I mentioned above, it has to end the empowerment trip that the bully is receiving.

Typically with more emotional bullying, you need to first address it. "Do it again, I'm coming for you". Then you have to come for them, and tell them why. And you have to keep doing it until it ends. The problem with other solutions remains that you need the cooperation of the bully. This is extremely difficult to achieve, both for adults and for kids.

Standing up isn't enough. You have to hurt the bully, directly. Saying "don't do that" is not enough. You have to step into the ring, no holds barred, and really aim to hurt them. Fighting back doesn't work either. You have to go to them.

Always keep in mind the empowerment that the bully is getting. By walking up to the bully and ramming their head into a wall... well... that's not very empowering for them. Having them waiting for you, then attacking you? Empowering.


(Even the bullied turning bully has to do with empowerment!)

 

[substitute]

yeah pt you're right about that fighting back isn't enough on its own, I've also noticed that turning the tables so that you're the aggressor for a change can make a difference. Catch them off guard, so you're the one asking the questions and they're the one with their time of day disturbed for no apparent reason, feeling confused and defensive.

Just sad though, that it has to be that way

 

[miss fortune]

yeah pt you're right about that fighting back isn't enough on its own, I've also noticed that turning the tables so that you're the aggressor for a change can make a difference. Catch them off guard, so you're the one asking the questions and they're the one with their time of day disturbed for no apparent reason, feeling confused and defensive.

Just sad though, that it has to be that way

^^ Just don't take that too far and become a bully yourself I guess

 

[substitute]

Haha, well if there's any type I'm going to listen to on this subject then it's ISTP, since I've never known an ISTP bully and all the ISTP's I've known have been able to hold their own.

 

[Anja]

Aaaaah. I think you're doing it substitute. You're just so deep into the problem-solving process and the emotional distress that you can't see that you are doing it!

Sounds like you've got the right idea. No one said it was going to be easy. It won't be. But don't give up. Set the example of personal pride and okayness, believe in it and support it in your daughter.

Don't worry so much about what others are doing and thinking and keep focussing on the goal. Which is to help a little girl grow into a healthy woman not carrying a lot of resentment and anger and feelings of inadequacy around with her.

Really. Focus on the good and that's what you'll help become established.

None of us can change other people and when we try we waste all that energy which could be used to make us better people.

And being better people builds that invisible shield from other's negativity. Yeah?

Not to fuss daddy. She's got a good one.

 

[Kyrielle]

Kyrielle it's interesting that you say it made you turn your back on the world as a cruel place full of cruel people, basically. In my case I never blamed the world, I was well aware that it was 'just them' and they were the ones with the problem. I knew that the other people in school, most of whom didn't bully me, were just scared of being bullied too and that outside of school where those bullies weren't, the world was generally benevolent. Somehow I never lost my innate optimism... but it did become heavily tinged with cynical pragmatism...

I think that's where we're different. I'm naturally pessimistic. Much moreso as a child. I have to sort of...create optimism which takes lots of time and energy. For example, seeing an unfortunate experience as a learning experience instead of something bad and painful that happened takes much contemplation and convincing of myself.

 

[heart]

The same people who turned a blind eye to bullying are still with us, only grown up and more politically correct, but have they changed at the core? That's something only to be take on an individual basis with solid proof. I've seen this side to human nature, seen teachers kowtow to it on occassion as well. I feel I was given a gift of truth, a view into the uglier sides of human nature. Nothing can change the wariness that brings.

 

[Falcarius]

For someone who is more or less a recluse these days, I was reasonably popular at school. I never really had any significant problems with bullying, it was rather like the odd incident here and there. The main reason was because I don't take myself all that serious so I was nearly immune to verbal bullying. I think if someone is going to insult myself it may as well be myself, that way it can be done properly. Also, I don't really take anyone seriously or respect them until they have earned my respect; So why the hell would I care about what some scoundrel who barely knows who I am thinks of me? I realised at a young age that it would be no fun to bully someone who does not care less about what others think of him. The whole point people bully other people is because they want a reaction, I did not play their game as I never gave them the satisfaction of a reaction.

'The biggest critic of one is oneself; why do you think humans spend so long in front of mirror if it is not true?' - My journal from about ten years ago.

As for physical bullying, I also never really had a problem with that either. I have no problem defending myself if someone is being aggressive towards me. I am a very laid back person, but having said that, I have a ridiculous temper when I do get annoyed if someone is really getting on my nerves. For example, I clearly remember I was in my science lesson one day, when some punk decided to throw a paper ball at me, while I was giving out the textbooks. Throwing things at a person who is handing out textbooks over an inch thick is completely retarded. I completely flipped out and threw four text books at his head, but that was not the end of it as I went over to him and whacked him a few times as well. Just put it this way, he was still sitting down so I had a major tactical advantage therefore he came off a lot worse. He ended up with several cuts and I ended up with two weeks suspension; one week for attacking the student, and the other week was because when the suspension over I had to have a meeting with a senior member of management and with my parents for discussing and evaluating the suspension, and I sort of said: "I'm not sorry about what I did and I would do it again. If I was the head of government and another country dropped a cluster bomb on my country, I would consider it an act of war, and most definitely fling a nuclear bomb back at them. A textbook is to a paper ball what a nuclear bomb is to a cluster bomb".

 

[Grayscale]

Haha, well if there's any type I'm going to listen to on this subject then it's ISTP, since I've never known an ISTP bully and all the ISTP's I've known have been able to hold their own.

ive never been bullied as far as i can remember. i could bully others, but i think my sense of fairness leads me to go out of my way to ensure certain attributes dont tip the balance in my favor. aggressive demeanor and physical prowess could impede the facilitation of reason, then everybody loses. but then again, i value brains over brawn (in whatever form)