Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts Social Last Support Group

[Z Buck McFate]

Do you do this in a consciously intentional way? As in dedicating time to just sit alone with your thoughts. I ask because I do not do this, rather I just let the meanings come to me as they please, which is often in the moment, but occasionally in hindsight too.

Even when I'm doing nothing, I'm doing something (I'm always researching something online and rarely even sit down to watch TV by myself). Still though, I avoid people like the plague and get my interaction fixes online where I can follow my whims and not dedicate too much of myself to others.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I think I'll answer regardless.

I don't usually put time aside with the intention of thinking about this or that piece of information, it's nowhere near that structured for me - but I do find that I just need copious amounts of time alone to process stuff on my own. It's like my unconscious decides for me what should take priority and it'll niggle at me while I'm making coffee or doing some quiet thing by myself. It can happen while I'm reading or watching something on TV if the content of what I'm reading or watching triggers some past puzzle that I hadn't really laid to rest. And for some reason, it tends to happen a lot in the shower - my closest friend and I (she's also INFJ) joke about how often we have some kind of epiphany in the shower about something that happened maybe 5 or 10 years prior. Like some piece of perspective will come from nowhere and totally change how we perceived something.

(So, pretty much how cascadeco described it, I think. This might be what you mean by letting meanings come to you as they please too).

I strive to understand someone and to be understood or why bother communicating at all? I hope that doesn’t come off as arrogant but I mean I don’t talk just to hear myself, my own thoughts bounce around inside all day long. Since I dislike small talk because it’s simplistic and the international currency of communication (it is equal in value regardless of which person you exchange it with) I want real communication to be deep but easy to process. I wonder often if what I deliver hits the mark?

I agree with this.

I feel like I can *kinda* tell if what I deliver hits the mark, based on a person's reaction. It's more difficult with written communication, but it's still kinda there. In fact, if I find myself wondering if something hits the mark a lot with someone, communication actually starts to become distressing. (Lol?)

This sounds like heaven

Agreed.

 

[Luminous]

And for some reason, it tends to happen a lot in the shower - my closest friend and I (she's also INFJ) joke about how often we have some kind of epiphany in the shower about something that happened maybe 5 or 10 years prior. Like some piece of perspective will come from nowhere and totally change how we perceived something.

I almost mentioned the shower. That and driving around or going for a walk in nature.

 

[anticlimatic]

I discovered that there is really only two career paths in life.

You can work with your hands, or you can work with idiots.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'm trying to compare my need for down time and my thinking processes to yours (as in compared to confirmed introverts). I guess I don't tend to see any difference between my needs and yours, except that I know that my mind never. shuts. off. I am always either working through something I am trying to figure out, or imagining some made up scenario that may not ever happen, or I am planning for my future, or sometimes even coming up with useful inventions or things I should write about. I am quiet much of the time though around people I don't feel a strong connection with and prefer to avoid much human interaction face-to-face, mostly because I find the majority of it boring, phony, and/or draining. If I am around, say, my SO, then I may go on occasional and random fast-paced speeches about whatever excites me, and I generally end up laughing at myself and apologizing for jumping all over the place ADHD style.

Perhaps [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] could chime in with his requirements for down time or how he takes times to process things, and maybe how he compares to the average introvert overall. I think that would be useful for me because it's uncommon to hear about this stuff specifically from withdrawn and social-last extroverts.

 

[Snow as White]

I'm trying to compare my need for down time and my thinking processes to yours (as in compared to confirmed introverts). I guess I don't tend to see any difference between my needs and yours, except that I know that my mind never. shuts. off. I am always either working through something I am trying to figure out, or imagining some made up scenario that may not ever happen, or I am planning for my future, or sometimes even coming up with useful inventions or things I should write about. I am quiet much of the time though around people I don't feel a strong connection with and prefer to avoid much human interaction face-to-face, mostly because I find the majority of it boring, phony, and/or draining. If I am around, say, my SO, then I may go on occasional and random fast-paced speeches about whatever excites me, and I generally end up laughing at myself and apologizing for jumping all over the place ADHD style.

Perhaps [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] could chime in with his requirements for down time or how he takes times to process things, and maybe how he compares to the average introvert overall. I think that would be useful for me because it's uncommon to hear about this stuff specifically from withdrawn and social-last extroverts.

Not qlip but will chime in about down time.

I notice a difference between me and my INFJ.

He goes into this like vampire power mode of silence while thinking, reading, playing a game, or just plain napping. He’s ok with me being in the same place as him and doesn’t mind if I interrupt. He just wants pure silence.

My idea of downtime is being alone to work on the projects I want to or the pure freedom to do exactly what I want. Whether it’s buying forbidden (and nutritionally disgusting) pizza rolls and binge watching some new show I’m freshly obsessed with or listening to music and drawing. I’m physically alone but my mind. Oh that fucker never stops. Which is why I’m here. On the couch at 12:30 am with a 6 am wake up with my mind still going. Meanwhile bf passed out 30s after he got into bed. Because he tells his body “it’s time for sleep”. I do that and my mind laughs like the joker and says. Innocently. What is the smallest mammal that likes bread.

My default mode in public is to be quiet. I let loose with my bf as well and occasionally he gets treated to either some weird exposition about who knows what wherein I sort of dare myself to see how far I can take an idea or it’s a rant about an author I hate.

Which is kind of why I thought I was an introvert for so long. That and the fact I tend to hate most people.

I guess I say all of that to say that down time for me means freedom. Don’t have to worry about anyone else’s needs. Can ignore phone calls (well I usually do) and yeah.

——-

Also about something that may be so last.

But


I find I so often have no idea how people will react to things I say. Usually isn’t a problem except that I am in a state of semi surprise to how people take me. Either good or bad.

 

[brainheart]

This made me reconsider the possibility of being an e4 sx-dom rather than an sp-dom, but I still relate to the second man as well. I have hang-ups because I don't relate to the descriptions of the sx 4's almost seething anger and jealousy in addition to having rarely if ever tested as sx first on enneagram tests. Yet despite all that, I heavily relate to Jeff's searching outside of himself for something that would complete him, I suppose an inner calling if you will. I think that's also a reason why I never come out as sx-first on tests, since for me it's not about intimate relationships per se, and that's what the tests almost always seem to aim toward. I've never seen the movie either, but I think I may want to check it out now. Thanks!

You're welcome.

Well, I would say, as [MENTION=29478]Neokortex[/MENTION] mentioned (quite well, actually), I think one of the biggest markers of self pres first is consistency, and that consistency comes from this internal groundedness, a real self-aware unwavering core. This is how I know that I am not self pres first, despite Fi having this almost self pres quality about it. I am so stinking inconsistent. I am off/on, hot/cold, motivated by what gets me interested, inspired, and excited. If I am disinterested, uninspired, or feel obligated ugh it is sheer drudgery and I will do anything I can to avoid it.

I think that Jeff and Philip Roth really show the differences between sx/sp and sp/sx well. I relate to Philip Roth as well, but honestly, it's more of an aspirational thing for me. I wish I was more like that (my four envy), and when I have moments when I'm actually doing the work I'm ecstatic. But it is so, so hard to sustain.

I agree with you about much in the e4 sexual instinct descriptions (and I also dislike how much emphasis is placed on intimate relationships with the sexual instinct. Although it's a big part of it, it's not the only thing). Sexual four descriptions lean so heavily toward extraversion and a three wing and probably sx/so (and 468), not to mention they always emphasize the extreme unhealthy version of the type. The one time in my life I have been that unhealthy, yeah, it sounds pretty similar to me. I finally read something about the high side of sexual four and it was like balm for my soul. Fucking finally, I thought. (I also think is the best sexual four description out there.)

This is it, it's from the Fauvres. It's more detailed at the link, but I didn't want to put a super long quote on here: [Enneagram Type 4] Fine Distinctions  Fours  Tom Condon

On the panel in my 1997 presentation, David was the poster child exemplar for the sx 4. True to expressing the high side of the sx 4, he was willing to share the raw, unedited truth of what it meant to have sx 4 as his primary defense strategy. It was so compelling and revealing that sx4s came up to me and to us throughout the rest of the conference and shared how much it meant to them to know that there were other people that felt the same way they did… and struggled with the emotional intensity.

They were relieved to have their gifts acknowledged and to understand more about their challenges. Until that panel, when they compared themselves to other 4s, they thought they were the 'bad' difficult, flawed, outspoken 4. When they had been with other 4s that did not have the sexual instinct they felt like they were too much… So they felt misunderstood by the other 4s and felt ashamed to mention their fiery intensity and emotional outbursts.

The reason for this is that until then, nothing had been written about the sx 4’s fiery emotional intensity. From the first books written in the late 80s to those written in the early 90s, 4s were described more in terms of the so 4 and sp 4. In the chapters on 4s, they were described as sad, shy and withdrawing.

This is what the sx 4 feels as well… at first…. but if the issue is about a mate or a strongly held passion, their fear of abandonment is triggered and they react with intense, angry emotions. We all know what happens if we feel intense angry emotions… imagine if this was your primary defense strategy. wink emoticon So, it was easy to see why sx 4s had concealed their fiery emotional reactivity. When triggered, they are feeling that they are not enough and all is lost. After an outburst they feel intense shame. When they finally heard about this fierce intensity from other sx 4s they finally felt met and more understood.

What I learned from the sx 4s is that on the high side, they are fiercely protective of intimates and when inflamed will more than go the distance in service of those to whom they are intimately attached.

What was so key for me to learn in that first study was that the sx 4s felt that ‘everyone’ had the right to express their individuality. And, if you have known and/or loved a sx 4, then you know how they can see someone’s uniqueness and individual gifts better than others. It is an amazing gift when they shine their light in someone’s direction. They see tiny nuances about people that most miss. They call off the beautiful and the ugly with the same ease. They are amazing troubadours that share their inner world and what makes us all human… and more specifically, our flaws and imperfections. They can make people feel truly seen. In fact, when coming from the high side, sx 4s are by far the most inclined to see what is innately human.

Roth’s writing days were spent in long silence—no distractions, no invitations entertained, no calls, no e-mails. After I wrote a Profile of Roth, around the time of the publication of “The Human Stain,” we would meet every so often, and he told me the story of how a friend had asked him to take care of his kitten. “For a day or two, I played with the cat, but, in the end, it demanded too much attention,” he said. “It consumed me, you see. So I had to ask my friend to take it back.”​

I would drop everything to take care of the cat, and put my priorities aside until the friend took it back. That's my problem. Not because of an obligation to the friend, but because I'd probably fall in love with the cat.

Oh, and re Roth: I'd peg him as a 5, so it makes sense you'd relate.

 

[brainheart]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION], yeah, I too require a lot of time alone. If I don't get my six or so hours of freedom a day, forget it, I become a basket case who lashes out at everyone, including myself.

But more time than that and I start to get mopey and lonely. I need a loved one. I can't imagine living alone, as much as I fantasize about it sometimes. I really need intimate connection. So it's all about balance for me. Too much human interaction and I lose my shit. Too little and I lose my shit. It's a tenuous precipice on which I stand.

 

[cascadeco]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION], yeah, I too require a lot of time alone. If I don't get my six or so hours of freedom a day, forget it, I become a basket case who lashes out at everyone, including myself.

But more time than that and I start to get mopey and lonely. I need a loved one. I can't imagine living alone, as much as I fantasize about it sometimes. I really need intimate connection. So it's all about balance for me. Too much human interaction and I lose my shit. Too little and I lose my shit. It's a tenuous precipice on which I stand.

Oh man I 100% relate.

Living alone is a challenge for me re that, I can become very ancy, start feeling unhealthy, get locked in my internal world if I have too much alone time. Though not having an s.o. I've learned with time to be a little more 'ok' with living alone, and that I need to at least get out if I start feeling that way, but I'd be lying if I said I'm not more balanced and better off with another person living with me. It's just I'd rather live alone than with a random person/ someone I don't *really* like. This is also too why at the end of the day, as many issues I can have with the customer element, working at a coffee shop probably helps with all of this, as once I get home I'm ok with being by myself/need it. Vs when I used to have a desk job where I was in my head all day long, by the time I got home to my lonely by-myself home I didn't want to be alone. It's a very fine balance but I totally relate to what you say.

Edit: Also in my younger years I put a lot more effort and focus desire on finding an s.o. but that's kinda waned in my mid years

 

[Qlip]

I'm trying to compare my need for down time and my thinking processes to yours (as in compared to confirmed introverts). I guess I don't tend to see any difference between my needs and yours, except that I know that my mind never. shuts. off. I am always either working through something I am trying to figure out, or imagining some made up scenario that may not ever happen, or I am planning for my future, or sometimes even coming up with useful inventions or things I should write about. I am quiet much of the time though around people I don't feel a strong connection with and prefer to avoid much human interaction face-to-face, mostly because I find the majority of it boring, phony, and/or draining. If I am around, say, my SO, then I may go on occasional and random fast-paced speeches about whatever excites me, and I generally end up laughing at myself and apologizing for jumping all over the place ADHD style.

Perhaps [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] could chime in with his requirements for down time or how he takes times to process things, and maybe how he compares to the average introvert overall. I think that would be useful for me because it's uncommon to hear about this stuff specifically from withdrawn and social-last extroverts.

I'm much like [MENTION=36145]Snow as White[/MENTION] in that regard, I don't so much need silence, I need freedom. I only need to be alone in so much that I need to be unrestricted. I don't sit and process, I do things and process, often tangentially. Back when I lived in the city I'd walk around take in the sights and let all the information just float around in my head. An odd piece of graffiti or observing an interaction between people might give me a startling insight on a problem with my personal life that I have filed away, or my mind just might wander around by itself and make connections before popping back into the world. Now that I live on the boonies I get that same space from working on project, browsing forums/information, reading, listening to pod casts, etc. But I have to feel unfettered to get there.

With people, they provide new ways of looking at things. I almost always invariably try to get in their heads when around them, this can 'block' me sometimes, or sometimes it can provide useful information. This doesn't mean that my interactions are outgoing and engaging, but it's a type of involuntary psychological permeation. I empathetically tune into them. I often connect this propensity to extroversion, and the desire to guard of my "core-self" when interacting with people as my sp instinct.

 

[Population: 1]

I just wanted to say I don’t set aside a specific time each week for reflection. I don’t go oh look it’s almost 7pm on a Tuesday, time to start my deep thinking!

It’s just at some point I hit a wall and need to shut everything and everyone out and have a conference with myself. Also, my brain doesn’t stop thinking deep thoughts until that time, it’s why I’m so easily distracted. I expend large amounts of energy trying to stay focused and fail often.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Okay, cool. I definitely feel more in line with [MENTION=36145]Snow as White[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]. I've noticed lately I've been doing a lot of little projects or working toward specific goals, and I have felt much more at peace with things and more energetic. It's a complete 180 from were I've been the last few years. At the risk of sounding pitiful or self-centered, I think there are few things sadder than a chronically depressed ENFP.

Nerd moment: I'm pathetically excited about turning my balcony into a crowded vegetable jungle hideout, complete with comfy chairs, mood lighting, and a multi-angle bug defense. Also, edible flowers.
ANYTHING TO HIDE THAT MONSTROSITY OF A DANCE STUDIO.

 

[Population: 1]

Okay, cool. I definitely feel more in line with [MENTION=36145]Snow as White[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION]. I've noticed lately I've been doing a lot of little projects or working toward specific goals, and I have felt much more at peace with things and more energetic. It's a complete 180 from were I've been the last few years. At the risk of sounding pitiful or self-centered, I think there are few things sadder than a chronically depressed ENFP.

Nerd moment: I'm pathetically excited about turning my balcony into a crowded vegetable jungle hideout, complete with comfy chairs, mood lighting, and a multi-angle bug defense. Also, edible flowers.
ANYTHING TO HIDE THAT MONSTROSITY OF A DANCE STUDIO.

Is it time for that little e to become a big E?

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Is it time for that little e to become a big E?

NO.
*crosses arms aggressively and pouts*

 

[Population: 1]

NO.
*crosses arms aggressively and pouts*

eeE!

 

[Hiraeth]

You're welcome.

Well, I would say, as [MENTION=29478]Neokortex[/MENTION] mentioned (quite well, actually), I think one of the biggest markers of self pres first is consistency, and that consistency comes from this internal groundedness, a real self-aware unwavering core. This is how I know that I am not self pres first, despite Fi having this almost self pres quality about it. I am so stinking inconsistent. I am off/on, hot/cold, motivated by what gets me interested, inspired, and excited. If I am disinterested, uninspired, or feel obligated ugh it is sheer drudgery and I will do anything I can to avoid it.

I think that Jeff and Philip Roth really show the differences between sx/sp and sp/sx well. I relate to Philip Roth as well, but honestly, it's more of an aspirational thing for me. I wish I was more like that (my four envy), and when I have moments when I'm actually doing the work I'm ecstatic. But it is so, so hard to sustain.

I agree with you about much in the e4 sexual instinct descriptions (and I also dislike how much emphasis is placed on intimate relationships with the sexual instinct. Although it's a big part of it, it's not the only thing). Sexual four descriptions lean so heavily toward extraversion and a three wing and probably sx/so (and 468), not to mention they always emphasize the extreme unhealthy version of the type. The one time in my life I have been that unhealthy, yeah, it sounds pretty similar to me. I finally read something about the high side of sexual four and it was like balm for my soul. Fucking finally, I thought. (I also think is the best sexual four description out there.)

This is it, it's from the Fauvres. It's more detailed at the link, but I didn't want to put a super long quote on here: [Enneagram Type 4] Fine Distinctions  Fours  Tom Condon

Actually, I did look through that link before and to my embarrassment have probably encountered almost every 4 related thread on here and PerC, ha. I did find myself relating very highly to every 4 instinctual subtype. Though I still can't get with the sx trait of being an 8-ish 4. I'm not very fiery except when super unhealthy like I was in my teen years, but even then still very withdrawn and more emotionally sad than angry. I always had trouble describing my feelings in depth to people and talking about what was shameful to me.

I think it's because I come off as an sx type on here to a few and it makes me wonder if it's possible I'm overlooking certain aspects of myself that isn't conscious to me. I found the first video interesting because I have a passion that I consider the focal point of my life, but am not as naturally productive like an sp type. Thus, I find the on and off tendency something very relatable. I'm only able to get myself to work consistently on something if it's meaningful to me. And even if the spark has waned, I would find ways to compromise but still force myself to do the work because the idea of it declining over time after all the work I put in is much worse, but it's still hard af and I have to REALLY push myself. I have trouble working on something if the passion isn't there in the moment, but it usually would kick in after I actually get myself started. I'm not sure if that is relatable or not, but I know for sure I struggle with consistency with other activities often. The integration to 1 struggle is real because I'm usually way too "perceivery" to stay productive for long.

However, one aspect you mention that is pretty key to the sx 4 is the neediness of a romantic relationship. For me it is more of a yearning, but I don't really go after it myself. It's a major reason why I'm still wary of identifying as one. I think people might think of me as an sx-dom because I come off very passionate and also take on the "look" at times by being a pretty flashy dresser and all, though I'm extremely repressive of my true feelings like an sp-dom. With me there is no ambiversion and that is also why I've been ambivalent at the possibility of being an sx type for a while.

The first section in the description you bolded is very much like my natural state. Sad, shy, and withdrawing. It's perhaps why I've never had any qualms identifying as a 4 when I first came across the descriptions.

But then the second paragraph...that part is definitely true. I would be on my hands and knees if that was to ever be taken away from me, but moreso for my passion overall. I'm not really certain about the bolded part in the third paragraph, but the last paragraph, yes!

And now I am at a crossroads again.

The sx subtype is something I hold in high regard and romanticize in a way by revisiting it as a possibility from time to time. I still question everything because I'm a 496 seeker tritype, so it's only in my nature to think "What if?" often, and that first video definitely set off the alarm. However, despite my inner passion, I'm not sure I'm "worthy" enough to wear the sx crown with confidence. But then again I never could relate to the sp "dauntless" title either, although I've heard people indicate that it's not a very good description for that subtype too. Yet if consistency is something that is a major facet of being an sp-dom, I'm not sure I can stick with it because I'm usually all over the place and not naturally grounded in that way. As I've mentioned, I have to really push myself to do something, even if it's a passion of mine.

Well I must say that this has been enlightening overall, so thank you for the information provided!

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Everyone and their mom knows thinks that I'm an Sx.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

If you steal that, I'll cut you.

I'm not resizing that so if it's huge fuck you.

@Lotus: I do sincerely wonder why you envy the Sx variant for 4s - I think it sounds half terrible.

 

[Luminous]

@Lotus: I do sincerely wonder why you envy the Sx variant for 4s - I think it sounds half terrible.

Only half?

 

[Hiraeth]

@Lotus: I do sincerely wonder why you envy the Sx variant for 4s - I think it sounds half terrible.

I think it does too honestly, but it also sounds way more badass for that reason, and I'm just...like...not. Hah.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I think it does too honestly, but it also sounds way more badass for that reason, and I'm just...like...not. Hah.

But.... I like you for you.

 

[Hiraeth]

But.... I like you for you.

Awww thanks Petey. And I can tell because you accepted my proposal.