[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[neuskens]

I have an ESTJ aunt, she's 24. She is on a rocky marriage and overall discontent with life, lacking a purpose and hope for better outcomings. She thinks things suck the way they are but they are like this and there's nothing she can do about it besides complain, which she does a lot. Point is: I want to somehow help her but I can't seem to connect to her language and the gist of what would really matter to her. What should I understand in her type to somewhat direct her thoughts out of cognitive loops and distortions? To make her realize the solutions for herself and actually see a way to implement them?


Also, can you tell me a story that shows in a casual way how your Te presents itself daily? What is the approach you take with problems?

 

[Ursa]

I have an ESTJ aunt, she's 24. She is on a rocky marriage and overall discontent with life, lacking a purpose and hope for better outcomings. She thinks things suck the way they are but they are like this and there's nothing she can do about it besides complain, which she does a lot. Point is: I want to somehow help her but I can't seem to connect to her language and the gist of what would really matter to her. What should I understand in her type to somewhat direct her thoughts out of cognitive loops and distortions? To make her realize the solutions for herself and actually see a way to implement them?

Also, can you tell me a story that shows in a casual way how your Te presents itself daily? What is the approach you take with problems?

Based on her situation, it's probably best that she sees a therapist to help her deal with her relationship and with her sense of purpose. She may need to be evaluated for clinical depression at the doctor's office too. There's really no good way to suggest therapy and seeing a doctor to anyone - but I definitely recommend you bring up your concerns with her and point her in that direction. Be direct but kind.

Also, do you want a story or are you asking for an example? Just to be clear.

An example would be discipline in day-to-day things. Te is the recognition that priorities need to get done, and it helps me follow through on those priorities. I do my homework, I study, I get the mail, I rake leaves, I clean, etc. Te is the function that tells me that I need to do work first before I can play, or that I need to get a certain amount of work done by a certain time. It's kind of like the boss/manager/parent function.

 

[neuskens]

Based on her situation, it's probably best that she sees a therapist to help her deal with her relationship and with her sense of purpose. She may need to be evaluated for clinical depression at the doctor's office too. There's really no good way to suggest therapy and seeing a doctor to anyone - but I definitely recommend you bring up your concerns with her and point her in that direction. Be direct but kind.

Also, do you want a story or are you asking for an example? Just to be clear.

An example would be discipline in day-to-day things. Te is the recognition that priorities need to get done, and it helps me follow through on those priorities. I do my homework, I study, I get the mail, I rake leaves, I clean, etc. Te is the function that tells me that I need to do work first before I can play, or that I need to get a certain amount of work done by a certain time. It's kind of like the boss/manager/parent function.

Maybe I described it wrong, there are no signs of depression. Mostly bluntness and cynicism. Either way I should be clear that I think she needs some help?

I want whatever you may think would get your point across better, but since you gave me an example, could you give me a story?

She sells chocolate and I see she absolutely blows at sales. Should I make her some kind of sales plan with clear, tangible goals for certain periods? Do you think it would help her and/or probably make her see I have good intentions towards her?

 

[Ursa]

Maybe I described it wrong, there are no signs of depression. Mostly bluntness and cynicism. Either way I should be clear that I think she needs some help?

I want whatever you may think would get your point across better, but since you gave me an example, could you give me a story?

She sells chocolate and I see she absolutely blows at sales. Should I make her some kind of sales plan with clear, tangible goals for certain periods? Do you think it would help her and/or probably make her see I have good intentions towards her?

I'm only concerned because you brought up that she's in a rocky marriage and is feeling without purpose. Cynicism can be a symptom of depression. (I have it.) If it's something that deeply bothers you, then I'd be up front and clear about it, but gentle. For example, "Have you thought about talking to a therapist about [complaint]?" No way to tell how she'll handle it, though, since I don't know her. But sometimes just planting an idea in someone's head gives them an opportunity to pursue it later. Even if she shoots that idea down, at least she can come back to that idea in private and perhaps mull it over some more.

You ENTPs are nice people. You like to try to understand what makes others tick in order to better help them out. But since I don't know your aunt personally, I want to get this out on the table just in case: sometimes people can get comfortable in misery and don't want to be helped, and at the end of the day, we aren't responsible for others' thoughts and behaviors. Your aunt is 24-years-old. She's a big girl who can make decisions for herself, and if she makes a mistake, then it was her to mistake to make, and hopefully she'll learn from it.

I don't know what your family situation is, so I don't have a lot of information to go on here - do you and your family depend on the chocolate business? If not, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's her business, she has to make the decisions, and hopefully she'll listen to customer reviews and adjust accordingly. I'd help out if her business took a tangible nosedive, but otherwise I'd let her and her employees sort it out. Unless she asks.

I think the most you can do is just lay out your concerns to her. Tell her that because she's your family, you care. If I found out that someone was helping out around my house or work just to get me comfortable before a bombshell, I'd feel manipulated.

I'll have to think about a good story to tell you.
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], do you have any thoughts on this situation? I think it's a tough one because it's involved with family.

 

[neuskens]

I'm only concerned because you brought up that she's in a rocky marriage and is feeling without purpose. Cynicism can be a symptom of depression. (I have it.) If it's something that deeply bothers you, then I'd be up front and clear about it, but gentle. For example, "Have you thought about talking to a therapist about [complaint]?" No way to tell how she'll handle it, though, since I don't know her. But sometimes just planting an idea in someone's head gives them an opportunity to pursue it later. Even if she shoots that idea down, at least she can come back to that idea in private and perhaps mull it over some more.

You ENTPs are nice people. You like to try to understand what makes others tick in order to better help them out. But since I don't know your aunt personally, I want to get this out on the table just in case: sometimes people can get comfortable in misery and don't want to be helped, and at the end of the day, we aren't responsible for others' thoughts and behaviors. Your aunt is 24-years-old. She's a big girl who can make decisions for herself, and if she makes a mistake, then it was her to mistake to make, and hopefully she'll learn from it.

I don't know what your family situation is, so I don't have a lot of information to go on here - do you and your family depend on the chocolate business? If not, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's her business, she has to make the decisions, and hopefully she'll listen to customer reviews and adjust accordingly. I'd help out if her business took a tangible nosedive, but otherwise I'd let her and her employees sort it out. Unless she asks.

I think the most you can do is just lay out your concerns to her. Tell her that because she's your family, you care. If I found out that someone was helping out around my house or work just to get me comfortable before a bombshell, I'd feel manipulated.

I'll have to think about a good story to tell you.
[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], do you have any thoughts on this situation? I think it's a tough one because it's involved with family.

Aw, thank you for your thoughtful answer, I found it very helpful, focused on mature love and care.

It's a one person bussiness, she makes them and sells them. I believe sales are hard for her because she is really blunt and, as she once said it, finds it tiring to put on a [i'm gonna call it] ''Fe-facade'' to sell.
I thought about helping her in bussiness because it's an area I study and am interested about, so at least I'd be helping her efficiently somehow.

I will for sure let her know my concerns and hold on to the belief that the greatness of love will eventually get to her and she will seek better ways of doing things. Thank you.

How long have you been dealing with depression?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=29149]neuskens[/MENTION]

What I find tends to help me the most, when I'm in the middle of a bad situation and think there's no way out, is to hear either 1) a solution, or 2) a reframing of the situation that makes a solution much more clear. You may or not be able to provide that, but it's worth a try, and I suspect that deep down she's hoping that someone will provide it for her. Hence the complaining.

Definitely, definitely don't offer to help her with her sales plan. If I were her, I would not take that well. But if she's already talking about sales, and you ask her clarification questions, she'd be very happy to answer them and might end up recognizing that you're right in certain areas -- which would allow her to learn things without feeling undermined.

I would also suggest that you hear her out when she talks to you about how things are going and why they're going that way, and suggest ways to shift her trajectory.

I agree with [MENTION=26167]Ursa[/MENTION] that therapy would be an even better idea, especially for the life-trajectory and marital problems bit, because clearly she has a mental block up and isn't happy with her life, and the venting is indicative that she needs someone to help her move forward. A friend of mine who was training to be a therapist used to tell me that if you vent about the same things over and over and it doesn't make you feel better, that that's a sign that something really needs to change -- either with therapy, or in some other way.

I'll come back with life examples per your request.

 

[Mademoiselle]

How do you deal with people?

 

[Ursa]

How do you deal with people?

That makes human interaction sound like a chore.

I like people, so I strike up conversations when it looks like they may be open to them. I tend to talk about clothes, sports, work, television or I decide on humor. It helps pass the time in line, it keeps life interesting and it's a great networking opportunity. You never know who you're going to meet or what kind of good story or information they have for you. I've learned a lot, made friends and landed job opportunities this way.

I've been focusing on developing my Feeling functions this past year, and it's helped me understand more about myself and others to know when to have patience with difficult people, which is a lot more patience than I used to have.

I give respect and try my best to make people feel welcome and protected, and I find that for the most part when people see my behavior, even the more difficult ones try to reciprocate. It's rare these days that I get disrespect from anyone. When I do, I leave and take my business elsewhere (even in the middle of appointments). If it's someone in my family or social circle, I'm honest with them about the problem, give them a chance to tell me their story, make sure they feel heard, and then I hammer out a solution from there. On rare occasions, someone is too disorderly to be included in my life, and I have to cut them loose. By that time, I'm happy with that decision because I've given them chances and they've given me more reasons to exclude them. When I look at the facts of the matter, I get clinically detached and it's easy to make these decisions. I don't have time or room in my life for people who are mean or manipulative and don't shape up. Fortunately, that only happens rarely because I tend only to cultivate relationships with others who are reasonably healthy.

My style is commanding but a little mirthful too. It helps even me out. I'm usually the one who tells family members what needs to be done and I assign tasks to everyone based on their skills and experience. Often this has to do with yard work, chores or holiday duties. If someone or I make a mistake, we laugh about it and then immediately fix it.

 

[Mademoiselle]

I like people, so I strike up conversations when it looks like they may be open to them. I tend to talk about clothes, sports, work, television or I decide on humor. It helps pass the time in line, it keeps life interesting and it's a great networking opportunity. You never know who you're going to meet or what kind of good story or information they have for you. I've learned a lot, made friends and landed job opportunities this way.
I've been focusing on developing my Feeling functions this past year, and it's helped me understand more about myself and others to know when to have patience with difficult people, which is a lot more patience than I used to have.

That's where ENTJs and ESTJs on the same page.

I give respect and try my best to make people feel welcome and protected, and I find that for the most part when people see my behavior, even the more difficult ones try to reciprocate. It's rare these days that I get disrespect from anyone. When I do, I leave and take my business elsewhere (even in the middle of appointments). If it's someone in my family or social circle, I'm honest with them about the problem, give them a chance to tell me their story, make sure they feel heard, and then I hammer out a solution from there. On rare occasions, someone is too disorderly to be included in my life, and I have to cut them loose. By that time, I'm happy with that decision because I've given them chances and they've given me more reasons to exclude them. When I look at the facts of the matter, I get clinically detached and it's easy to make these decisions. I don't have time or room in my life for people who are mean or manipulative and don't shape up. Fortunately, that only happens rarely because I tend only to cultivate relationships with others who are reasonably healthy.

As I was reading I've completely understood my ESTJ friend, I've always known her personality, but never knew why she acted certain ways in certain situations, she always seemed to be so determined to reply or act. And though I've learnt about her morals, sometimes I couldn't predict her response, other times I didn't understand how exactly she valued things. Like how some days she doesn't take 'childish' selfies or record some snaps with 'Stupid' filters, but she still watches cartoon. She spent the entire summer watching cartoon with her little sister. Now I get it, she just insulted me the other day.

My relationship with her almost ended, I didn't see why'd I have her as a friend, all her nice words she doesn't mean, her audience she's playing or the moments she tried to throw shades. I decided to put her in the right social group. However, and as we all know, there are pros and cons of each type.

How do you define a 'disorderly' behaving person?

My style is commanding but a little mirthful too. It helps even me out. I'm usually the one who tells family members what needs to be done and I assign tasks to everyone based on their skills and experience. Often this has to do with yard work, chores or holiday duties. If someone or I make a mistake, we laugh about it and then immediately fix it.

That seems to do the job,
I wonder if they realize your commanding, sometimes people can get sensitive or threatened by a willful person, labeling the smallest suggestion as "domineering". Which I think it can be a problem in primary or life-long relationships. So what were the problems you faced, and how did you overcome them?
Also, what type are family members and how in/dependent are you?

 

[Ursa]

As I was reading I've completely understood my ESTJ friend, I've always known her personality, but never knew why she acted certain ways in certain situations, she always seemed to be so determined to reply or act. And though I've learnt about her morals, sometimes I couldn't predict her response, other times I didn't understand how exactly she valued things. Like how some days she doesn't take 'childish' selfies or record some snaps with 'Stupid' filters, but she still watches cartoon. She spent the entire summer watching cartoon with her little sister. Now I get it, she just insulted me the other day.

My relationship with her almost ended, I didn't see why'd I have her as a friend, all her nice words she doesn't mean, her audience she's playing or the moments she tried to throw shades. I decided to put her in the right social group. However, and as we all know, there are pros and cons of each type.

How do you define a 'disorderly' behaving person?

I decided to use that term because three of the very few people I cut ties with were later identified to have a cluster-B personality disorder. Their behavior towards me and others was totally unacceptable, which made sense given their disorders. The other person I cut loose was an incorrigible alcoholic who asked me to cheat with him on his wife. He also murdered a cat in cold blood (I won't say how he did it - it was bad way to die). I didn't bother giving him an explanation as to why I terminated contact with him. These people had mindsets and constellations of defense mechanisms that made it impossible to be welcome in my social circle, so I kicked them and their bullshit out.

That was several years ago. I'm more educated on personality disorders and what healthy people look like now than when I was younger, so I better know how to filter my circle, and when to be patient with someone and when to bring down the hammer before a situation goes south.

As far as your spoiler goes, I agree that it depends on morals and values. For example, I usually don't take pictures of myself because I think it's narcissistic, but I watch Japanese anime. I can't think of moral reasons not to watch anime - it's just a personal preference that I have. I think narcissism is immature, but I don't label anime (or Western cartoons for that matter) as necessarily immature. I think you can be a mature person and still enjoy those things. Anyone who pays taxes, contributes to society and cultivates good in their society is probably mature - even if they happen to watch Spongebob on some of their free time. It's a different story if most or all of what they do is watch television.

I wonder if they realize your commanding, sometimes people can get sensitive or threatened by a willful person, labeling the smallest suggestion as "domineering". Which I think it can be a problem in primary or life-long relationships. So what were the problems you faced, and how did you overcome them?
Also, what type are family members and how in/dependent are you?

I get that sometimes. I'm usually smiley and friendly, though, so I think that nips the problem in the bud sometimes. People know through my actions and facial expressions that I care about them and their welfare. Sometimes I do accidentally step on people's toes because I'm blunt without realizing it. I listen to their complaints (i.e. make them feel heard) when that happens and I take steps to reassure them and address their concerns. I've learned not to fight it, because it only digs me a deeper hole to climb out of. I don't want to be the kind of person who oppresses others anyway.

It's a problem when shy and sensitive people don't say anything, though. I watch for the signs that they're uncomfortable and ask them about it. It's something I've had to practice a lot.

My family members are my ISFJ mother and my ISTP brother. We all get along really well. Probably the more contentious issue in my family is the Thinker vs Feeler divide if I had to name one.

 

[Rouskyrie]

Hey all! I made this thread in response to a few things:

1. My experience with the rampant misconceptions about ESTJs that so many members have here (based on very limited personal experience, if any),
2. Loads of random people on TypoC asking me questions about the ESTJs in their lives, because I'm one of the only semi-actively-posting ESTJs here, and
3. All the people who want me (and the other ESTJs here) to try to make a difference on this site.

Here's the idea: if anybody has any questions that only an ESTJ can answer (and please, no spamming!), do so here. I'll do my best to help you out. Also, I reqest that other ESTJs help out on this thread here too. This doesn't have to be a one-woman battle! But you obviously shouldn't feel obligated to help out if you don't want to. I can do this on my own if necessary.

EDIT: Don't be afraid to post here! I won't bite.

So here I am. Questions, anyone?

How would you describe your experience with your inferior function, Fi?

 

[EJCC]

How would you describe your experience with your inferior function, Fi?

Think of what you know of dominant and auxiliary Fi -- its complexity, nuance, values-orientation, need for internal coherence in those values, strong feelings projected onto others (e.g. compassion, empathy). Similar to the Ti need for near-mathematical "elegance" -- i always hear that word from INTPs! -- except with feelings. Now, imagine that all those feelings, and the subsequent need to immerse yourself in them in order to observe them and find that coherence, and put all that in the mind of someone who only ever disregards feelings. Someone who sees feelings as a hostile force to be avoided. It's disorienting and surrounds you in feelingsy mental chaos. At best, it feels like losing everything that made you strong, and becoming weak. At worst, it feels like going insane -- losing control and losing your grip on reality.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Do you ever get mistaken for a xNxP type as Ne is your tert function?

 

[Norrsken]

How do you clean an oven?
Not even trolling, need to know.

 

[Ursa]

Do you ever get mistaken for a xNxP type as Ne is your tert function?

Never. I consider myself to have a great relationship with my Ne, but my Te, which is what makes EXTJs Judging types, is louder and clearer still. I'm organized, on task, I follow through and I love planning and everyone around me knows it. It's not stick-up-my-ass neurotic level but it's clearly there. Ps in general don't usually get that way, and it's never as intense. People usually peg me as EXTJ.

I'm pretty goofy, and I am open to spontaneity, and when I'm especially silly then sometimes people who don't know me as well think I'm an ESTP.

 

[Ursa]

[MENTION=29149]neuskens[/MENTION], here is a story:

A long time ago, a professor royally screwed me. He had gotten upset at me for unprofessional personal reasons, so he reported me to the dean of students for frivolous reasons, which resulted in negative consequences for me. I responded by researching my rights as a student on the college website. I learned that I had the right to appeal, so I did just that. I appealed by letter using business format. I used as many facts as were relevant and I listed witnesses. I kept it impersonal and not emotional.

The dean of students got back to me, and we set up a series of appointments wherein I was interviewed. I provided the facts again and again and made a case based on reason and not emotion. The dean of students acquitted me and restored my rights because it was obvious I didn't commit an offense.

However, I was pissed off. I submitted a formal grievance to the asshole professor's department and division chairs. People who mess with students' educations for personal reasons don't deserve to teach. This was also a facts-only account. They were partial to the asshole and so didn't want to investigate, so I asked them what they had to lose by me going to Human Resources (i.e. a lot). That did the trick.

That's how my Te works. It's highly impersonal, it favors researching solutions before acting, and it isn't afraid to push. Sometimes it pushes hard - but not unnecessarily and not without a plan.

Some of this is enneagram 8-related too. As an 8, I cannot stand oppression in general - not of me or of anyone. So I'm eager to address imbalances of power when I can. In this case, the mean professor was abusing his power in order to punish students who went against his highly personal preferences, and his bosses were enabler-types who let it happen and wanted to turn a blind eye, which is a passive abuse of power. I lock horns with people like that. Te helps me win.

 

[EJCC]

How do you clean an oven?
Not even trolling, need to know.

You can buy oven cleaner at the store, lol. Follow the instructions on the packaging.

Do you ever get mistaken for a xNxP type as Ne is your tert function?

I used to be confused for ENFP every once and a while by peiple who don't know me at all. Nowadays my most common mistypes are ESFJ and ENFJ.

 

[Lord Lavender]

How would you describe Te and how it differs from Ti?

 

[Forever]

How do you clean an oven?
Not even trolling, need to know.

You can buy oven cleaner at the store, lol. Follow the instructions on the packaging.

Just be careful some of those oven cleaners can clean your hand a little too well if you know what I mean.

Although first do it the lazy way:

You will need:
1) paper towel
2) water

Combine two supplied in moderate amount of each. Scrub against surface. Throw away when very dirty. Repeat until oven is mostly clean.

Part 2:

You will need:
1) oven cleaner
2) more paper towels
3) gloves you don't care about at all

Apply oven cleaner liberally. Squirt it as if you were going to light a witch on fire with gasoline (hopefully no one is like Wiccan here [i finished AHS season 3 like three weeks ago] and please don't actually use gasoline lol) wear gloves and then take towels and scrub it out hard. Wait to dry. Take additional paper towels and voila.

You just cleaned it the ghetto way.

 

[tarannom]

Hello ESTJs
I have been dating an ESTJ guy for a couple of times. He recently has divorced because of his wife betrayal as he told me. However, I don't know the story in detail. Actually I would like to know more but he asked me to give some time and then he will explain.
Well, as an ENFJ this was a little bit difficult relationship for me, actually too harsh but he showed a lot of enthusiasm and I also liked him and had feelings for him so I continued. Then one day we had a heated up conversation on a topic he brought up which I felt insulted and reacted strictly and somehow emotionally that hurt him. To me it was not hurting. If he could have put himself in my shoes, he would have told me far worse! Anyway... a few hours later I apologized for making him upset. He responded nicely but again sent me a video which I found again disturbing. That brought the next round of fight but this time in a passive way! He called me and I did not respond as I was really mad of him. Next day I asked him to meet and resolve the issue but this time he said it would be better to give time and meet later. Meantime he had a trip to visit his family and when he came back again there was no sign of him. I told myself I will text him for the last time and if he does not reply I will let it go. This time he replied with delay but we met and resolved most of the issues that bothered both of us. In the end he told me that he would have liked to continue this relationship but right now he is looking for a new job position which is not sure yet. Also while visiting his parents, he had visited a psychologist who advised him to take a few more months of break as it is too early after his divorce to enter a new relationship. He highlighted the job issue for his reason but I personally think that the advice of the psychologist was more important to him as he said I don't want to make a mistake again. Finally he asked me to give him 4-5 month time to make things work. After that we were in contact 2-3 times for just doing some normal favors for each other. Now it has been over 5.5 month and there is no sign from him. I really am not the type of a person who starts the relationship, so I don't want to call him and ask him about his status. I am just wondering that shall I assume it is over? was he some kind of polite at the time he was explaining his situation? I am really confused... ESTJs please help me in understanding him