[Type 6] Ask a CP6...

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]

As a 4, can you give some insight as to how you see CP6's in relation to your 4ness?

I enjoyed your metaphor:

Think of matches and a gas can sitting on a bench.

You said that a 6 will check the alarms and extinguisher. A CP6 will separate the can and matches. I would say that a 4 would clothe themselves in fire retardant material.


- I find the 6’s I know are driven more by anxious and problematic thoughts (not to the exclusion of other lovely thoughts of course, my 6 friend is a joy). CP 6’s appear more idealistic with a core motivation of realism and I ‘find myself’ more in that kind of thinking.


- I can relate to both the 6 and CP 6 ability to determine ‘worst case scenario’s’ very quickly. The difference though is that instead of responding with anxiety, I (usually) will analyze the logical possibilities and either dismiss the thought or immediately form a viable plan of action to implement. Only if I am overly tired or under pressure, will I choose to reside in the ‘worst case place’ and worry. Thankfully, I don’t generally waste much time on worrying as it produces the least enjoyable version of me (blush).


- I can relate to the CP6 tendency for crusading or taking up a cause. Even as a small child I couldn’t help but be vocal and advocate for anyone I perceived as an underdog. And, I also have experienced the CP6 dynamic of: having more “observational evidence” as the rational for action, rather than verbally expressing why it is justified. Which sometimes leads others to conclude that I am acting on emotion or ideals.


- Like with CP6, as a 4 I am sometimes not aware that fear is a motivator behind what I do or say. When I AM aware, I understand greatly the CP6 idea of: acknowledging the fear and enjoying the challenge of overcoming it.

I don’t relate to generalized anxiety/stress but do definitely to the: ‘fight or flight’ mode. I am sometimes shocked when someone perceptive let’s me know that they recognize it IS fear driving my actions. But, upon reflection, I will recognize it to be truth.


- I relate to fear (for 4 it feels more related to vulnerability than external factors). I also can relate to having a chill, laid-back attitude inside and find it can be at the forefront (except for times when I allow pressure to make me backslide to a more instinctive state).


- Like CP6, the 4 in me also responds with defensiveness if I feel someone has spoken about me behind my back (especially if their intent gets twisted in multiple communications). Best to speak to me oneself, and I appreciate direct speech even if it includes analysis of my deficits. I will not be defensive if the person approaches me themselves.


- Have noticed that 6’s can get frustrated or consumed with their own behaviour and that of other’s if they perceive it is unseemly or unfair, and will want to ‘school the person’ in their errors I find that CP 6’s have more sense of self (even if critical towards self), and are more engaged in pursuing understanding in changing their OWN behaviour. I can relate to the latter as well.


- I have seen what Forever_Jung stated, as present in the 6’s I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with:

I know this sounds contradictory, but the more trust I put in someone, the more I have to check in to make sure I can still trust them. It's kind of like when sports team get super paranoid when their best players suffer minor injuries.

I cannot relate to that but I do relate to initially testing/ascertaining trust. Once I feel ‘safe’, it’s decided and I can lavish the person with the rewards without giving further thought to that. Where do you fall with this [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I know this sounds contradictory, but the more trust I put in someone, the more I have to check in to make sure I can still trust them. It's kind of like when sports team get super paranoid when their best players suffer minor injuries.

I cannot relate to that but I do relate to initially testing/ascertaining trust. Once I feel ‘safe’, it’s decided and I can lavish the person with the rewards without giving further thought to that. Where do you fall with this @MDP2525?

I understand the above quote. I think of 6's as oscillating fans or sharks. Scanning constantly; always moving in a sub-sensory level. Checking systems. Making sure everything is good until it isn't.

We are the security guards checking locks and coming back later to do the same hours later.

We do the same with trust. We keep checking.

So, there is really no full trust - in the sense of unconditional trust. We can trust but when coming back to that check, we notice the lock was picked on a metaphorical door? We suspend that until we figure things out. Something is wrong. Until it's figured out, narrowed down - anyone is suspect.

It's why we are known as whistleblowers and can be anti-authoritarians AND just as likely to fight to maintain the status quo.


It's like a modus operandi. It's normal. It may sound exhaustive but it's not. It's our nature. Lol.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I understand the above quote. I think of 6's as oscillating fans or sharks. Scanning constantly; always moving in a sub-sensory level. Checking systems. Making sure everything is good until it isn't.

We are the security guards checking locks and coming back later to do the same hours later.

We do the same with trust. We keep checking.

So, there is really no full trust - in the sense of unconditional trust. We can trust but when coming back to that check, we notice the lock was picked on a metaphorical door? We suspend that until we figure things out. Something is wrong. Until it's figured out, narrowed down - anyone is suspect.

It's why we are known as whistleblowers and can be anti-authoritarians AND just as likely to fight to maintain the status quo.


It's like a modus operandi. It's normal. It may sound exhaustive but it's not. It's our nature. Lol.

Ok. Super helpful. Love the shark and fan analogy. (Your brain! With the metaphors and naming! Yep, I'm a fan {not the oscillating kind})

So, I don't relate to what you wrote - but a little. I am not vigilant once someone has gained my trust. It is fairly unconditional with the caveat that my mind is always alert to inconsistencies and will question those if they arise.

Do personal intimates in your life ever gain unconditional trust (it was this wording in FJ's above post quote that particularly caught my eye: the more trust I put in someone, the more I have to check in to make sure I can still trust them).

I do admire this variant of what you wrote very much:

It's why we are known as whistleblowers and can be anti-authoritarians AND just as likely to fight to maintain the status quo.

I am somewhat perplexed because I thought 6's drew comfort and sense of self from affiliation with organizations and authority? Am I off on that? Or is it that when the organization or authority falls short of what the 6 thought they stood for (even rightly so) that fall-out occurs?

 

[Duffy]

I grew up with lots of 6 and 9s, so I ramble quite a bit on these types.

On the surface, similarities I see between 4 & 6 is reactivity and the line of health towards the image triad (4 => 2 and 6 => 3). I think the the whole counter-vice theory ( like countershame & counterphobia) is actually an extension of the idea of disintegration. In other words, there's some element of posturing involved when insecurities are breached.

Both types can be emotional or reactive so that's self explanatory. I suppose what differs is the trigger. I see 4 and 6 reactivity involving the disrecpency between themself and those around them.

-Type 4 is an image type, so it's more how one's inner image falls short of the one they put out. Failure to measure triggers shame. I'm 5-wing bias though, so mirroring or having my image received a certain way isn't a big deal.

-Type 6 is a head type, so feelings, emotionality, triggers, are dealt with differently compared to image types. In my experience, average to low health 6 can come across as not only unaware of anxiety, but unaware of their feelings. Their feeling is more pronounced when there is a frame of reference, something to get emotionally charged about. They just know they feel this or that way about someone/something. Online I notice a subset of 6s or wing 6s that like to jump on people who they perceive as having a bit of an "ego," like they gotta "put them in their place" or something. From a nurture perspective, I wonder if it's because they grew up with vain parents. 4s or 3s might do something similar but it's usually coming from a place of envy / jealousy.

 

[Duffy]

I am somewhat perplexed because I thought 6's drew comfort and sense of self from affiliation with organizations and authority? Am I off on that? Or is it that when the organization or authority falls short of what the 6 thought they stood for (even rightly so) that fall-out occurs?

Not directed at me, but I'd imagine it's a lot like growing up believing in Santa Claus and what he stands for, but later in life finding out he's just some disgusting slob. So yeah, I think you're right. 6s are often linked with cynicism, and I tend to view cynicism as a perversion of idealism. With idealism being some type of attachment style.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Ok. Super helpful. Love the shark and fan analogy. (Your brain! With the metaphors and naming! Yep, I'm a fan {not the oscillating kind})

It is the way I can explain things...in depth. Otherwise, it would just be a pretty simple statement.

Do personal intimates in your life ever gain unconditional trust (it was this wording in FJ's above post quote that particularly caught my eye: the more trust I put in someone, the more I have to check in to make sure I can still trust them).

For me, personally? No one gets unconditional trust. There are varying degrees for different people, like say, some I trust with a secret but not to lend money to. I think what FJ said was something I related to when I was much younger. When betrayal/abandonment after trust would be utterly devastating.

I can't speak for other CP6's, tho.

I am somewhat perplexed because I thought 6's drew comfort and sense of self from affiliation with organizations and authority? Am I off on that? Or is it that when the organization or authority falls short of what the 6 thought they stood for (even rightly so) that fall-out occurs?

Similar to what [MENTION=25411]Duffy[/MENTION] said. The Santa Claus thing. A CP6 can drink the Kool-Aid. Then realize it wasn't sweet and turn on the establishment they cherished. I do think the anti-authoritarian bent is generally more CP6 than phobic 6.

Online I notice a subset of 6s or wing 6s that like to jump on people who they perceive as having a bit of an "ego," like they gotta "put them in their place" or something. From a nurture perspective, I wonder if it's because they grew up with vain parents. 4s or 3s might do something similar but it's usually coming from a place of envy / jealousy.

This was brought up earlier in the thread, in a slightly different way but it's important for CP6's to realize they can come across this way.

However, any CP6 would not view it as vanity. At least, this is not the driving motivation - and that is important in understanding CP6's.

They can definitely be misguided in whatever attempt they pursue, sure....but what I see as "putting someone in their place" usually comes from a place of fighting for a perceived underdog, or possibly a underrepresented counter to the predominant "ego" presented.

How hard they go after the person? Says a lot about health of the CP6 but...

It's not vanity or vain parentage but a desire for balance. You were right about a certain idealism and this is how that is presented.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] this might be a better place to discuss if you wanted to add anything to your quote or discuss further

but I have a lot of qualities of both. I really prefer not to classify myself because I think that is limiting; but if I could be, I would kind of like to know. I think all 6's are both most of the time- that's what makes us a 6, an inherent duality. We're always reacting to ourselves.

I agree with "reacting to ourselves"

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] this might be a better place to discuss if you wanted to add anything to your quote or discuss further



I agree with "reacting to ourselves"

Cool. Are you more cp? You seem like you could be.

Edit: Oh my bad, I didn't notice the title of the thread and that you were the OP bc I thought we were still in the other thread. Good guess then.

I'm at work, but maybe later tonight I will elaborate. Right now I'm thinking I'm more cp because even though I'm initially afraid of most things I never settle for a phobic response (even if I react that way for a long period of time) if it holds me back from how I want my life to be. I always eventually root out and confront my fears.

As a possible counterphobic 5w6... this thread interest me a great deal.

CP6s, do you prefer someone to talk about you in front of you, or behind your back?

I always prefer it to my face. I get belligerent if I think someone is being passive-aggressive. Even though I can be. I'm a hypocrite. Someone not discussing a problem with me frustrates me to no end, because it tells me they don't care enough to try to solve it and instead just want to throw negativity at me. I'm paranoid, so I would much rather know someone is thinking something negative than constantly worry about it.

*I'm not sure I'm mostly counter-phobic. Leaning toward it. Answering the question nonetheless.


[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]:

I will freely acknowledge that I frequently feel morally superior. Which is one reason I have decided my gut fix is 1. I feel like there is no point in having morals if you're not going to apply them to yourself and others ---> a judgement of superiority vs. inferiority. If there is anything objectively real about ethics. Why try to be moral if you are never more moral than anyone else? It doesn't make sense. Now I will acknowledge that it's all karma and we all learn the same lessons over the course of all our incarnations, so objectively me being more spiritually and ethically advanced than someone else doesn't mean they are less deserving of love; the ability to love everyone unconditionally simply is what essentially constitutes morality imo.

Also I pretty much agree with everything you said in the post- but I also agree with [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION].

I probably engage in knocking people off imaginary pedestals. I don't know. It's a result of me feeling insecure about something and perceiving a threat, or taking something out of context, or just being paranoid. But I have in the past been pretty neurotic. I'm also very good at perceiving slight imbalances of power. So I may have been right; I think it's just that I see things which are real which are destructive, but I fail to see the big picture of their situation, the context, and all the positives.

I have 2 friends atm with whom I have a serious set of resentments and have acted aggressively towards, and they have a big problem with this, and I am trying to figure out how to handle it. I won't tolerate someone forbidding me to be angry with them; that's abusive. But at the same time I want to be fair and objective and open-minded, and come to the situation with love instead of fear.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

^My posts here are somewhat old (and embarrassing). As I recently said elsewhere around here somewhere, I've come to see CP6 reactivity more like people/trust-OCD. I don't think it's coming from a place of being 'right'/righteous conviction so much as just needing to know.

It's possible I'm still wrong and in another year I'll be embarrassed again by this post, but .

 

[greenfairy]

You know CP6 is not so bad. Watch The Patriot or Braveheart. Those are good examples.

I think CP 6's are awesome. If it weren't for them most of the world's injustices would not be fought. It would all fall on 8's and 1's.

I can actually feel my own tunnel vision going on here, with this. Lol. (It feels like there's *something* I'm not hearing.)

One of my closest friends is an e6 INFP, and it kinda scares me sometimes because I feel like I might step on a landmine and something I say might get interpreted as something entirely different from what it is- and it seems like even the Ps get a sort of tunnel vision when they feel threatened? Even though I've known her for 10 years now- and even though I'm an honest person, and I think she values that and it does mean a lot to her that I've always been honest with her- it feels like a looming threat to me that I might say the wrong thing one day (and it'll have far more to do with how much stress she has going on in her own life/insecurity she feels herself than with any changes on my end). My memory for exact dialogue sucks, so I can't give specific examples.

Ironically- it's my opinion that e6 NFPs can bridge that NFJ/NFP gap way better than other NFPs, they just 'get' NFJs far more than any other type of NFP. They somehow understand exactly what makes usual NFP discourse hard to ingest and they're better at speaking NFJ language (I suspect at least part of it has something to do with the way e6s value consistency, which is not usually a P strength). But it does scare me because it seems like once that first domino falls- if something I say is imbibed with *extra* meaning, and if it isn't sufficiently cleaned up right away (which I may not have any control over, no matter how much the person means to me or how honest *I* am about things....it seems like these kinds of things are set off more because the CP6 in question is stressed), then everything afterwards is going to be tainted with more *extra* projected meaning.

There's just something in that certainty (?) that personally scares me/makes me wary. Even as a Pi dom (and therefore somewhat prone to tunnel vision myself), I don't understand it. I think I'm going to have to read through some enneagram 6 descriptions and come back with specific chunks of someone else's "6s do this" text- because that might help others figure out wtf I'm talking about. (It probably won't be today or tomorrow, but I'm glad this thread is here because I am curious.)

Interesting. My INFP cousin is exactly like this minus the relating to NFJs parts. And I am quite sure she is E-4 and doesn't have a strong 6 fix. The part about having to constantly worry she is going to get butthurt over something I said. But maybe I'm missing some nuances of your overall point. I think a lot of that is Fi is my point.

About trust. The 6 virtue is faith. I see faith as extending goodwill based on a feeling of connection. Faith is an attitude. Trust is earned, continuously. For me, anyway. I have always thought it entirely reasonable to not fully trust anyone ever; I saw those who did as being foolish future victims. Now I am better at it, but I still require people to continuously reaffirm their loyalty and earn my trust.


So anyway, after disjointedly replying to various things I had input on, here is my story. I am not really sure how cp or p I am. I have different tendencies in different areas of my life. I have read this is normal. I do resonate with fear very much, and have always been aware of it. But when I get angry it is a totally different thing. I am usually unaware of my fear in this context or any other vulnerable emotion and lash out in an 8ish kind of way (to avoid vulnerability) and also to restore an equal playing field. I very much identify with this motivation. I have been into politics and philosophy my entire life. I have a philosophy degree and consider myself a philosopher; the tritype 641 is that of the philosopher. So I always intellectualize and conceptualize my emotions first. If I can turn my feelings into an idea, that of fair or unfair, respectful or disrespectful, beneficial or harmful (externalizing) I can avoid that vulnerability and feel I have control over it. I fear depression and sadness over all else because then I have lost control (getting better at this by developing my shadow Fi). I have a flight response much of the time, but maybe equally a fight response. It's hard to tell because there is such a separation in myself between the physical and the mental. Mentally I am totally counterphobic. Physically I'm a total coward. Although I do like to push myself out of my comfort zone. If I feel someone could and might physically hurt me, I run away. And I always expect this to be a possibility. But I never let people intimidate me. I am always at first intimidated by people, but then don't accept this, and fight this in myself. Ultimately I see no reason I should fear another person. I see all their weaknesses and insecurities and feel I could take them down if I needed to, if they didn't overpower me physically. Intellectually I have no fear. I question everything. I feel it is doing a service to that thing, because you are making it stronger and allowing it to improve itself. I have been described as stubborn and argumentative my entire life. Arguing is my first defense, aside from avoiding danger, because I feel competent in the mental realm. I would metaphorically and literally hide from someone while yelling at them. A combination of a phobic and cp response probably. I have always been the person who said the things other people were too afraid to say. And I don't respect authority. I will act ingratiating and submissive and placating and all that nonsense to a boss because I am constantly afraid of being fired, but really I don't give a eff and if I get angry I will say anything to anyone. The problem is I usually wait until I get angry and my 1 fix tells me it's valid to voice my feelings and thoughts, unless I am consciously making an effort to push myself out of my comfort zone and take a risk. Sexually I display a strong cp response. I have intimacy issues. I really want it, but it scares the heck out of me (sx/sp or sp/sx). But the more I fear it the more I seek it out. This is the only area in which I have ever tried to have power over another person; I want my partner to want me more than I want them to avoid vulnerability, and to pacify any possible threat. <-- in my unhealthy state.

So based on all that rambling, what does it look like for me? I can say more or answer any questions. I really feel I am both most of the time. I probably paint a more cp picture because that makes me feel more empowered. But the fact that ultimately I am determined to remove all my fear and not let it hold me back says to me a little more cp. Although sometimes it takes me years of being stuck in a rut and asking myself what I was fearing which caused me to self sabotage, and then making myself root it out and confront it to change.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I've come to see CP6 reactivity more like people/trust-OCD. I don't think it's coming from a place of being 'right'/righteous conviction so much as just needing to know.

Has this helped relating or getting along with CP6's? I think it's pretty accurate and...smart.

The feeling of not knowing what someone is thinking or feeling can be super unsettling for CP's and cause them to react/doubt themselves as to the best course of action to take. In a way, it's outsmarting the CP6 and making them deal with you on a very different level, a good one though.
------

Similar to what greenfairy said about "reacting to ourselves" rather than other people.
[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] you seem CP to me, in the way you approach issues. I think you may just be healthier than the average CP because you are *aware* of your reactivity.

I can relate to a lot of what you said! Especially, the difference in good faith and trust.

I know [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] asked about trust. Can you expand on what you mean by needing someone to "continuously affirm loyalty and earn trust" from your perspective?

 

[Cellmold]

[MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

This has probably already come up as a general premise but what do you think about the differences between CP 6 and P 6's approach to what makes them react?

I'm obviously a P 6, though I have my CP style streak from time to time, but mostly I am looking for a solid footing from insecurities yet at the same time fear this necessity to ward off fear in the first place as an overreliance on external standards dictated by others.

How does this contrast for you? If it does.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Has this helped relating or getting along with CP6's?

Yes. The reactivity can really throw me off.

I can be reactive myself, but only in situations/with people that I'm familiar with.

I can empathize with being reactive in such a way that I find it very difficult to not express some of the stuff that's causing the reaction- if only to find out I'm wrong, that it's in my own perception- but I can empathize with not being able to hold it in and needing to know wtf is going on. I might have a hard time empathizing with the speed in which it seems to happen, but knowing it's essentially the same thing I go through makes it easy to empathize with. It becomes less threatening.

When it looks like someone's reactivity is from righteous conviction, though, I find it very hard to empathize. That's like pure criticism, like someone throwing a big bag of poo into the pool. It's a compassion vacuum. I don't like being that person- I really dislike the actual feeling of feeling righteous, it feels terrible. And that behavior in others brings out the worst in me. It's a struggle to not find it threatening.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION]

This has probably already come up as a general premise but what do you think about the differences between CP 6 and P 6's approach to what makes them react?

I'm obviously a P 6, though I have my CP style streak from time to time, but mostly I am looking for a solid footing from insecurities yet at the same time fear this necessity to ward off fear in the first place as an overreliance on external standards dictated by others.

How does this contrast for you? If it does.

I think some differences I see is P6 vs CP6, is the CP6 has *more* of a reliance on self, rather than the over-reliance on external standards dictated by others.

So, this is why I think they get mistaken for 8's, who go inward to protect vulnerability/rejection. 8's trust their abilities. CP6's trust themselves(ish).

But it's a baseline trust. It's a self-preservational trust rather than one built on confidence in their abilities. (Unlike 8's)* Uh. "At least I know I have my own back" comes to mind.

I think the difference in a CP6, is they never really trust themselves but they know they aren't ones enemy. Lol. So, there's a safety in the CP6 own sense of trust in themselves but as opposed to 8's* 6's abilities are always in question because it is measured by others standards, or outside influence, rather than our own. It's why we second guess SO much because we are always watching for changing variables. Or are aware of HOW something will change.

I think, and correct me here, that P6's seem way calmer in the world than CP6's - provided they can prepare or can access outside support systems to "have their backs" they won't feel out of control. Since the world is set up this way, P6's have many an outlet to "trust in" and won't seem so volitile as a CP6 does.

A lot of this will overlap to some extent, but I see P6 more outwardly oriented/less self oriented than CP6's. Hmm. What do you see tho?

 

[greenfairy]

------

Similar to what greenfairy said about "reacting to ourselves" rather than other people.
[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] you seem CP to me, in the way you approach issues. I think you may just be healthier than the average CP because you are *aware* of your reactivity.

I can relate to a lot of what you said! Especially, the difference in good faith and trust.

I know [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] asked about trust. Can you expand on what you mean by needing someone to "continuously affirm loyalty and earn trust" from your perspective?

Well, betrayal whether accidental or with awareness is always a possibility. I don't believe there is anyone who would never do it, and if there is, I don't trust my ability to discern the person in question as such. So I have to always be on the lookout for it. People lose interest. Their commitments falter. Their attention wanders. Character flaws which were previously hidden come to light. I want people to reassure me that these things have not happened if something seems to me to suggest the possibility of any of them. And if they have done anything in the past to betray my trust, they have to earn it again, often over a period of time. It can't just be saying pretty words to get on my good side. Maybe I am more demanding than most, but I think part of what makes a person good or at least subjectively good for me to be with is the commitment to put forth the effort to make me feel secure at all times.

Which is the central issue I am having with my 2 friends atm. They say they don't have the time or energy to deal with my insecurities. And I get that I am a little insecure, and have been a lot more in the past, but one went so far as to say it's not their job to make me feel secure. And I'm like, well actually it is. I'm not sure how to find this balance. Maybe I'm neurotic, but I feel like if they can't give me the reassurance I need I don't need them in my life.

When it looks like someone's reactivity is from righteous conviction, though, I find it very hard to empathize. That's like pure criticism, like someone throwing a big bag of poo into the pool. It's a compassion vacuum. I don't like being that person- I really dislike the actual feeling of feeling righteous, it feels terrible. And that behavior in others brings out the worst in me. It's a struggle to not find it threatening.

This is something I can't empathize with at all. How do you possibly get angry with someone without a sense of right and wrong being involved? If something doesn't feel wrong to you, either subjectively or objectively, what is there to be angry about? If you are fighting or attempting to change a wrong, then you are in the right. Or feel you are right. It seems like you are saying there is something wrong with feeling right. Which makes no sense.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

This is something I can't empathize with at all. How do you possibly get angry with someone without a sense of right and wrong being involved? If something doesn't feel wrong to you, either subjectively or objectively, what is there to be angry about? If you are fighting or attempting to change a wrong, then you are in the right. Or feel you are right. It seems like you are saying there is something wrong with feeling right. Which makes no sense.

I'm not religious, but the phrase 'let he who has sinned cast the first stone' comes to mind. Or 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

I can get angry about getting a bunch of mosquito bites without thinking it's "wrong" for mosquitoes to bite me. That's just what they do. It's just as available for someone to say it's "wrong" of me to go outside at night without using mosquito repellent. It can go back and forth like that forever. I have to share this planet with them, I know they're there- figuring out who or what is "wrong" is relatively pointless. Ultimately I think it's just a lazy way to offload shame (e.g. if a person can't handle feeling stupid about not having used mosquito repellent, they need to feel like they did nothing wrong- labeling mosquitoes "wrong" is a effective way to offload that shame).

That^ is how I think when I'm feeling most like myself, when I like who I am. I don't like who I am/don't feel like myself when I'm feeling righteous about anything- it's a red flag for me. It invariably feels very slimy afterwards when I catch myself feeling morally superior to others in any way. (This isn't to say I don't avoid others who trigger me, I can and do avoid them like the plague. Just like I don't willingly stick my arm out at night for mosquitoes to bite me, just because that's what they do and they need an arm to bite. I'm just saying in the throes of feeling triggered I can get to feeling morally superior sometimes and I'm always left liking myself a little bit less as a result. There's some old saying along the lines of "be kind, for everyone we meet is fighting their own battles" or something. I like myself the most when I can be mindful of that- judging someone else's battle isn't actually helpful.)

 

[greenfairy]

I'm not religious, but the phrase 'let he who has sinned cast the first stone' comes to mind. Or 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

I can get angry about getting a bunch of mosquito bites without thinking it's "wrong" for mosquitoes to bite me. That's just what they do. It's just as available for someone to say it's "wrong" of me to go outside at night without using mosquito repellent. It can go back and forth like that forever. I have to share this planet with them, I know they're there- figuring out who or what is "wrong" is relatively pointless. Ultimately I think it's just a lazy way to offload shame (e.g. if a person can't handle feeling stupid about not having used mosquito repellent, they need to feel like they did nothing wrong- labeling mosquitoes "wrong" is a effective way to offload that shame).

That^ is how I think when I'm feeling most like myself, when I like who I am. I don't like who I am/don't feel like myself when I'm feeling righteous about anything- it's a red flag for me. It invariably feels very slimy afterwards when I catch myself feeling morally superior to others in any way. (This isn't to say I don't avoid others who trigger me, I can and do avoid them like the plague. Just like I don't willingly stick my arm out at night for mosquitoes to bite me, just because that's what they do and they need an arm to bite. I'm just saying in the throes of feeling triggered I can get to feeling morally superior sometimes and I'm always left liking myself a little bit less as a result. There's some old saying along the lines of "be kind, for everyone we meet is fighting their own battles" or something. I like myself the most when I can be mindful of that- judging someone else's battle isn't actually helpful.)

See these things never come apart for me. I can't wrap my mind around what you are saying- but it's interesting. How do you actually feel angry then? Is it just a strong unpleasant feeling without any associated thought? Like a crying baby has no moral judgement but they sure as heck get angry? I would never say it's wrong of you to not take care of yourself. I wouldn't blame the mosquito either. If I were angry I would think it unjust that mosquitoes exist in the first place and that the Universe willed this fate upon me. Which of course isn't rational, but feelings are not rational. I would get over it very quickly. But that's me. I could relate to the nonverbal raw feeling- so there is a small amount of them coming apart, but that little bit of judgement is almost always subconsciously tacked on. I also probably have shame issues, so you might be right about that part.

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION] do you still identify as a CP 6? I thought it fit you.

Also have any of you waited tables? I think my 6 traits contributed to both my strengths and weaknesses in this area. I was specifically thinking about the fact that my natural tendency is to just say anything that comes across my mind with no filter, which is not good in this situation. Combined with the fact that kissing people's butts isn't something I enjoy. Which is not to say that another CP 6 couldn't be great at it.

[MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]
What drives c6s to be so argumentative. When i mean argumentative i mean arguing over the simplest thing, with the closest of all people, over points made that weren't even made to offend or disagree?
I second what someone else said about clarity. I also take objective truth very seriously because I think people's beliefs essentially drive the world, so to change the world you must change beliefs. And changing the world is something very important to me.
Do you ever feel that you take things too seriously when you get involved in the kind of scenarios explained above?
Only when it is brought to my attention afterward or I cause discord, or I wear myself out and feel stressed. It's a bit of a blind spot.
Is it normal for c6s to imagine things to prove a point. I am not talking of scenarios where if you don't prove your point you'd get shot in your head.
I don't really know what this means. I imagine interactions with people to see what I would say to see how right I think I am. I imagine hypothetical scenarios as examples illustrative of a point.
Do/would you lie to prove a point.
No, what would that prove? If I was hiding a small detail counter to the point I was making but I thought the point still stood, I could feel justified in leaving it out- especially if I thought the person I was talking to would not understand this and just derail the conversation.
Do you constantly feel stress?
Not since I have done a lot of meditative yoga for a long time. It was crazy when I realized the amount of background anxiety that was normally going through my mind.
Do you ever think you crossed the limit in going bat shit crazy over another and have you ever apologized or would you?
As in going crazy being overreactive? Sure. And yes. If I still cared about the person.
If you get to be any other personality type what would you choose to be. It doesn't necessarity have to be a type you admire.
Enneagram-wise? I don't know. I like my type just fine. I think I would like any other less.
What do you think of e7s? (Try not to say that they all party too much.) Do you think e7s and e9s take things too lightly?
I don't think much else about them honestly. And generally yes.
Are you conservative when it comes to sex? Do you find it hard to intimately bond with another due to your anxieties? Do you find it hard to simply seek sex?
-Not at all.
-Totally.
-I do feel like I would like some emotional intimacy and ongoing connection for it to really be enjoyable. Although I have had some good experiences where I only expected the former.
Do you fuss ober the simplest things and are you people ever satisfied with things?
Probably and probably not. I think I fear being satisfied because then I would have nothing to be vigilant about.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]

Yes, I am a CP 6w7 SX/SO. Yes I waited a lot of tables in my teens and twenties when I wasn't working as an adult entertainer, or trying out desk or sales jobs I absolutely hated and was poorly suited for. I currently do massage and petitioning, and am working towards a hands on career in parks or ecology in the private sector or non-profit. My undergraduate studies concentrated in English Literature.

I'm actually good at putting on a show, as long as the show stops at regular intervals. By that I mean I can "perform"..but in personal situations I do have a limited or poor filter about my true opinions, but I have peacefully given massages to Trump supporters. But catch me on a train and I might say that the person is a jerk. I can operate within limits well, but usually on short term time tables, which is why being self employed works for me.

I have a need to vent, likely from performing for clients or customers.

I have gotten better at seeing both sides of things, I actually make a likable vegan, my roommate is all about eating veggie meals now, I'm quite deft with my manipulation and could likely even marry a reducetarian or vegetarian with positive results. I was at a meeting tonight and could see both sides of a situation when someone a decade older than me was taking it personally. I attribute a lot of this to foruming on MBTI forums, yoga, meditation and talk therapy, because now I'm very aware of my issues, but am likely the most confident I've been since before I began puberty.

I also wonder how much this has to do with developing tertiary Ni.

I'm really bad in random personal situations though. That's likely partially Se, and partially being a CP 6w7. It's really hard for me not to tell people to fuck off when it's the equivalent of a surprise.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Do you guys consider yourselves neurotic?