Why Men Kill themselves

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'm going to speak on this from a personal viewpoint because I'm a man and years ago I seriously thought about ending my own life. My most suicidal period was between 18 and 21, which also happened to be the time I went to University.

I don't think there was one single cause and in the case of any man who wants to kill himself I don't think you can narrow it down to just one thing. I don't even like talking about this period of my life but now I feel I have to the way this discussion is going.

Firstly, you'd be glad to know Feminism isn't to blame. For me, what was to blame was:

Possibilities - This was that time in my life where I went from feeling that the world was my oyster, that there was so much I could achieve and had the ability to grasp it. I realised as soon as I began to really make an effort at University and fucked up at every turn that I wasn't this intelligent guy that everyone else made me out to be, basically the only redeeming factor I felt I had. I left University with a bad grade and no prospects, so what was the point in continuing?

Loneliness - They say University was supposed to be the best time of your life and that you'll meet your real friends there. Despite my best efforts to socialise with people, they would generally avoid me on purpose. There were a few people I would hang around with, but they weren't really friends and I'm not in contact with any of them any more. I spent a lot of time at University, a lot of it spent on the campus computers trying to find people online to talk to and going home quite late. There were times when I wouldn't get to speak irl to anyone for weeks at a time. The class divide played a part too as I do have a working class background, and everyone else I spoke to wasn't.

Purpose - I felt like I didn't mean anything to anyone. I had no friends (I wasn't popular in school anyway but I had friends from time to time), was still not romantically involved with anyone and I felt kind of disowned by my parents - we didn't do anything together any more, my dad was really annoyed with me as he had such high hopes for me only to crash and burn. It was soul destroying and I did spend a lot of time looking into suicide methods, and spending time on suicide newsgroups finding others to speak to about this. The only entity that I felt that cared was one of our dogs and he died infront of me. During this period I didn't care about my body and regularly self harmed.

Late 2001 I wrote a suicide note, posted it online on a forum I was on and I was seriously going to kill myself. Someone in Scotland saw it, called the Police and an officer went round my house. Me and my mom had a talk (we wouldn't mention this to my dad, I don't think he knows still, to this day). I would try to do better. I survived.

Thanks for sharing. That was the age when I considered suicide as well. Similar but different circumstances. My parents made me go to an overly expensive private school rather than the state school I was leaning toward. I'm still in the process of paying off student loans and I don't even have a degree to show for it. Long story short, I was miserable and didn't fit in with the rich kids there. I was openly shunned for being a socially awkward weirdo on more than 1 occasion. Any plea to my parents was met with threats to cut me off financially and with "man up. No one said it would be easy"

I think it's only a very small percentage of guys in here who are actually blaming feminism for male suicide.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It means that we need to respect how men express themselves and we need to respect how women express themselves. If a man prefers to be more emotionally open, we should accept that, but if a man wants to be more emotionally distant, we should respect that, too.

That's the only way to ensure that the social constructs align. But many people (not saying you) tend to want to push the pendulum past the point of equilibrium and enforce OTHER incompatible constructs of their own devising.

This.

I only wish that the Laci Greens of feminism realized this

 

[Lark]

All right ****ers! Enough arguing in public, jeesh. Patriarchy meeting in ventrilo in one hour.

No commies *looks in Larks direction*

I'm not gay and so find your sausage fest gatherings pretty unappealing if that's alright.

 

[Lark]

Someone thread ban Lark please

yeah, ban all the dissenting voices and you and the three musketeers can restrict yourselves to some sort of circle jerk.

Like its not what you guys want to get up to anyway.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Everyone is, by nature, a certain way. If the social constructs don't align with those innate properties, they tend to cause strife. There is room for flexibility, because there are lots of "right ways" for the social constructs to align, but it isn't infinite flexibility because there are many more ways in which they would not align. Put simply, egalitarianism doesn't mean we need to treat men more like women and women more like men. (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or use straw men - just fleshing out my idea, here.) It means that we need to respect how men express themselves and we need to respect how women express themselves. If a man prefers to be more emotionally open, we should accept that, but if a man wants to be more emotionally distant, we should respect that, too.

That's the only way to ensure that the social constructs align. But many people (not saying you) tend to want to push the pendulum past the point of equilibrium and enforce OTHER incompatible constructs of their own devising.

Relevant to this particular topic is my thread on the Autistic man who had a therapy that made him suddenly extremely emotionally aware of everyone. He went from being emotionally distant and well-adapted to being emotionally distant, to being emotionally sensitive and quite ill-adapted to being emotionally sensitive. It was torture for him. (Though he thought it would be wonderful to explore this new world of emotions and his participation in the therapy was completely voluntary.) He didn't realize how much people relied on him being emotionally distant.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

Although I disagree - somewhat - with the bolded but only slightly and it has more to do with semantics of origin. It goes back to "what makes a man" "or "what makes a woman". Everyone has those definitions and a lot of those definitions that "feel accurate" to oneself are social constructions. Biology not withstanding.

My stance is that one's personality, abilities, intelligence should be the main guide in which to judge, to relate. In this respect, gender holds no real shadow over this.

So it isn't men need to be more like women and vice versa. It is breaking those molds all together. Seeing each other as who we are rather than some social ideal we should live up to. It doesn't mean change yourself but rather change your outlook.

As for the Aspergers guy. Interesting. I'm not surprised he was tortured by being aware of people, emotions. Was this something he wanted? I would read that article if you have a link?

When you strive to make significant changes you often are overwhelmed and shocked. Sensational overload. I would like to see if he continued with that therapy? There is an evening out with time with that sort of thing. Like working a muscle you never used. It will hurt until it gets stronger.

 

[Rasofy]

For a woman, being perceived as 'weak' can be a huge advantage when it comes to finding a partner; there are countless movies/novels/songs around that theme. Not so much when it comes to advancing on a career, but, there's a kick: men usually prefer women who earn less than them. So even when they fail, they sort of win.

For men, it's kinda all or nothing.

 

[violet_crown]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

[MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]

(Other dudes are welcomed to contribute as well, of course.)

 

[uumlau]

My stance is that one's personality, abilities, intelligence should be the main guide in which to judge, to relate. In this respect, gender holds no real shadow over this.

So it isn't men need to be more like women and vice versa. It is breaking those molds all together. Seeing each other as who we are rather than some social ideal we should live up to. It doesn't mean change yourself but rather change your outlook.

I disagree with the bolded and partially disagree with the rest. The molds are not entirely of our (conscious) making, and therefore cannot be fully unmade. Gender (what I would call "sex", by why quibble?) will usually have a significant role in the dynamic.

I know that's kind of a contentious point, because a lot of people sincerely believe that gender is 100% social construct. It is not, it is demonstrably not. That doesn't stop people, however, from believing it, because they believe so much in equality, it just HAS to be true, otherwise their notion of equality is fucked.

I think that in practice, we generally agree on this, e.g., if we were to analyze any particular case we'd arrive at very similar conclusions, but in abstract I think we disagree on underlying principles.

As for the Aspergers guy. Interesting. I'm not surprised he was tortured by being aware of people, emotions. Was this something he wanted? I would read that article if you have a link?

When you strive to make significant changes you often are overwhelmed and shocked. Sensational overload. I would like to see if he continued with that therapy? There is an evening out with time with that sort of thing. Like working a muscle you never used. It will hurt until it gets stronger.

My theory is that he has/will eventually get used to it and adjust to his new awareness. But in a lot of ways, he's like a young F type, aware-but-not-wise.

 

[prplchknz]

I act like neither man nor woman in terms of emotions but naturally i probably lean more femine and how you want to act with your emotions as in be emotionally expressive or not that's not my business. I don't think men should cry more or less they should cry as much as they need to. I promise i won't call them a little bitch. I know i'm not society and I'm not good at listening to it, or really caring about what it thinks to me that unless i feel it wants to kill me. but i don't feel that way right now so i don't care. and it's not really society that wants me dead, so therefore society doesn't matter. it might matter to you. what i'm saying is be you and screw the rest.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I act like neither man nor woman in terms of emotions but naturally i probably lean more femine and how you want to act with your emotions as in be emotionally expressive or not that's not my business. I don't think men should cry more or less they should cry as much as they need to. I promise i won't call them a little bitch. I know i'm not society and I'm not good at listening to it, or really caring about what it thinks to me that unless i feel it wants to kill me. but i don't feel that way right now so i don't care. and it's not really society that wants me dead, so therefore society doesn't matter. it might matter to you. what i'm saying is be you and screw the rest.

It's refreshing to hear that from a woman. I've heard some, including my own wife, say they are turned off by men crying.

Luckily I am not the crying type

 

[prplchknz]

It's refreshing to hear that from a woman. I've heard some, including my own wife, say they are turned off by men crying.

Luckily I am not the crying type

I'm turned off by most people crying. even though i cry easily, which is why i prefer to do it alone, if i can help it

but i realize it's because i'm usually unsure as to why and what to do 90% of the time. not because of their gender

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

[MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]

(Other dudes are welcomed to contribute as well, of course.)

I honestly don't know.

I'd like to see all humans feel free to pursue the life they want rather than the life they feel they are expected to pursue

I don't know what women want or expect of men, but I suppose the ideal society would consist of everyone encouraging people of both genders to think of what they CAN do rather than what they SHOULD do

You know, idealistic, post-feminist Star Trek kind of shit where people actively try to better themselves without worrying so much about whether they're filling roles prescribed by others

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'm turned off by most people crying. even though i cry easily, which is why i prefer to do it alone, if i can help it

but i realize it's because i'm usually unsure as to why and what to do 90% of the time. not because of their gender

Yeah, same here.

 

[ceecee]

It's refreshing to hear that from a woman. I've heard some, including my own wife, say they are turned off by men crying.

Luckily I am not the crying type

I have less of an issue with men crying than women crying. I don't know why this is.

 

[Xann]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

[MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]

(Other dudes are welcomed to contribute as well, of course.)

Hmm, well if the goal here is true egalitarianism, something along the lines of

1. Completely fair and unbiased (based on gender) child custody laws
2. Removal of the alimony system and division of property upon divorce, except in cases of proven abuse
3. Choice of father at birth of child to "opt-out" of legal responsibility of guardianship
4. Equal requirements for both sexes for entry into physically oriented professions such as military, police, firefighting, etc.
5. Equal representation of MRA and feminists in creation and influence of childhood educational supplements
6. Removal of gender based hiring requirements
7. Revision of workplace sexual discrimination and harassment laws to allow for much higher level of tolerance on the part of males (and females too if it were to become a problem) without meaningful bad intent
8. Holding both sexes equally accountable upon being proven guilty of committing crimes and having this reflected in duration and quality of punishment
9. Equal representation of both males and females in the military draft in times of war
10. Removal of the double standard of when it comes to drunken sex = rape on the part of the man only
11. Equal government funding for research/cures into illnesses and diseases that affect both sexes disproportionately

You get the idea...probably a lot more I haven't thought of/considered.

I don't personally think this solution is ideal as it will truly be the children who will suffer, but if it's true egalitarianism that is desired, then these would be some good first steps to take to combat existing unfounded/outdated cases of preferential treatment. The shift in cultural awareness the implementation of these ideas would cause would likely result in a massive reduction in male suicide in my opinion.

 

[violet_crown]

I honestly don't know.

I'd like to see all humans feel free to pursue the life they want rather than the life they feel they are expected to pursue

I don't know what women want or expect of men, but I suppose the ideal society would consist of everyone encouraging people of both genders to think of what they CAN do rather than what they SHOULD do

You know, idealistic, post-feminist Star Trek kind of shit where people actively try to better themselves without worrying so much about whether they're filling roles prescribed by others

While I have many qualms with the Feminist movement, one of my biggest ones is that I've always felt Feminist claim to love women while hating feminine things. I think within the historical context of the first and second wave of the movement it made sense. In order to do things beyond the home a woman did (and still does) have to be twice as good to be accepted in almost any male-dominated space.

I think that truism got warped over time into this sort of...general abhorrence of things that one would ascribe to the archetypically feminine. Being nurturing, emotional, receptive, delicate were seen as things we should purge ourselves of--like Amazons lopping off their right breast to better fire an arrow--to make way towards that glass ceiling. And I think there are still elements of that attitude even within contemporary feminist discourse. Giving into these those impulses will only hold us back.

The issue, though, is that feminine and female are not synonymous. Everyone has their yin and yang. A woman who loathes the feminine in herself will of course loathe it in her partner as well. It would be a major disconnect otherwise. I don't think that some of the criticisms leveled by MRA types are entirely hysterical for that reason. Men do face a definite double bind in that regard. I think the fight now is less about equality between the male and female per se and more about equality between the masculine and the feminine more generally.

Case in point. If stay at home dads weren't so stigmatized, then more dudes would be willing to stay at home to help raise their kids. If as many men were encouraged and enabled to be nurturers as women were, then gender based income disparities would likely level off as women would no longer be primarily expected to opt out or otherwise way lay their career to look after their kids. We as women lose when we don't honor the feminine in ourselves or our partners.

Girls should be able to code without being dykes.

Dudes should be able to be Bronies without being pussies.

Everyone should be able to be themselves. Other people should keep their goddamn opinions to themselves.

Anyways, TL;DR, I agree with you.

 

[Rasofy]

Men in this thread: what do you envision as an ideal resolution to the issues implied in the OP? What would healthy expectations for men look like--either from themselves, other men or the women in their lives?

In your view, what can women do to support men in terms of this issue?

[MENTION=9627]Xann[/MENTION] [MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=19700]Anaximander[/MENTION]

(Other dudes are welcomed to contribute as well, of course.)

Did I ever mention that I tend to fall on the fatalist side?

I think men's and women's societal value is closely connected to how valuable they are on the "sexual market", and for men to demand women to be attracted to fragility is kinda like women demanding men to be attracted to obesity. I could tell women to be more sympathetic to men when they feel like a failure, but chances are they will 'friendzone' these men and have sex with men who have a totally opposite personality/mindset, and I strongly believe that would make those men feel even more worthless.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

While I have many qualms with the Feminist movement, one of my biggest ones is that I've always felt Feminist claim to love women while hating feminine things. I think within the historical context of the first and second wave of the movement it made sense. In order to do things beyond the home a woman did (and still does) have to be twice as good to be accepted in almost any male-dominated space.

I think that truism got warped over time into this sort of...general abhorrence of things that one would ascribe to the archetypically feminine. Being nurturing, emotional, receptive, delicate were seen as things we should purge ourselves of--like Amazons lopping off their right breast to better fire an arrow--to make way towards that glass ceiling. And I think there are still elements of that attitude even within contemporary feminist discourse. Giving into these those impulses will only hold us back.

The issue, though, is that feminine and female are not synonymous. Everyone has their yin and yang. A woman who loathes the feminine in herself will of course loathe it in her partner as well. It would be a major disconnect otherwise. I don't think that some of the criticisms leveled by MRA types are entirely hysterical for that reason. Men do face a definite double bind in that regard. I think the fight now is less about equality between the male and female per se and more about equality between the masculine and the feminine more generally.

Case in point. If stay at home dads weren't so stigmatized, then more dudes would be willing to stay at home to help raise their kids. If as many men were encouraged and enabled to be nurturers as women were, then gender based income disparities would likely level off as women would no longer be primarily expected to opt out or otherwise way lay their career to look after their kids. We as women lose when we don't honor the feminine in ourselves or our partners.

Girls should be able to code without being dykes.

Dudes should be able to be Bronies without being pussies.

Everyone should be able to be themselves. Other people should keep their goddamn opinions to themselves.

Anyways, TL;DR, I agree with you.

Not tl;dr. The most insightful comment so far in this thread.

I probably could write more in response, but typing on a smartphone is frustrating

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Did I ever mention that I tend to fall on the fatalist side?

I think men's and women's societal value is closely connected to how valuable they are on the "sexual market", and for men to demand women to be attracted to fragility is kinda like women demanding men to be attracted to obesity. I could tell women to be more sympathetic to men when they feel like a failure, but chances are they will 'friendzone' these men and have sex with men who have a totally opposite personality/mindset, and I strongly believe that would make those men feel even more worthless.

Have you read the infamous Michael Sonmore article? I guarantee Paolo doesn't identify himself as a feminist

 

[Rasofy]

Have you read the infamous Michael Sonmore article? I guarantee Paolo doesn't identify himself as a feminist

Link please