Why Men Kill themselves

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think if people are committing suicide there's bound to be a bunch of reasons, probably mainly personal, probably about temporary troubles or chemical imbalances in the brain and body, blaming it on structural injustice against men perpetrated by women and feminism is BS.

From a cultural standpoint...

the poor classes have always had it shitty. the men in those classes enjoyed little more rights than their wives and daughters, and in some regards, they were even less advantaged and more disposable.

The women's rights' movements were largely beneficial, but what went wrong was that men kind of got left behind as progress happened. Now they're continually falling behind in both school and professional scenarios--it isn't really all that obvious yet, but give it another several decades. Now, as far as the powerful classes are concerned, women are still a minority in the halls of power, however they have made many inroads and we're gradually seeing more and more take their rightful places in those classes. However, with our schools in fact favoring females by design, we're going to see the scale tipping the other way rather than coming to a balance, as it should rightfully be.

So men might not be outright thinking, "ohhh feminism and gender politics have driven me to blow my brains out," but the conditions in our society may certainly be at least partly to blame for an increase in male suicide rates.

Am I blaming women? No. I'm just trying to recognize the trends in society that may explain the increase in male suicide rates.

 

[Lark]

It is not people in general committing suicide who are being discussed in the article, it is about men, who commit it far more frequently than women do, and in my opinion, the points the article brings up are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the reasons for it. Temporary troubles and chemical imbalances have their own root causes as well, don't they? Fairly certain there are a ton of studies on how lack of social acceptance and connections cause depression and a host of other problems which relate back to the points the article is making.

Alright, well, when Durkheim analysed suicide he found it was men who were mainly the victims too, because men suffered more from identifying with the fortunes of their nation or society because they were not excluded from public life as women were, how you like those apples?

My point is, and remains, this is a BS article by some woman hater with a grudge against feminism who's trying to hang male suicide on both of those things and I think that not something that anyone should give the time of day, unfortunately there's likely to be just enough men who're likely to hear it out because misogyny is easy, doesnt demand anything of the individual and excuses a hell of a lot of learned helplessness and excuses.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

So, [MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION], yes, it is a political issue. Shame on you for being unwilling to treat male suicide as a legitimate issue that could in fact be connected to other societal and cultural issues, constructs, etc.

It just needs to be framed correctly, minus some of the misogynistic tinges that tend to color a lot of MRA writings.

 

[Ivy]

If I'm not mistaken, and I don't have the time to look this up right now but I've consistently heard it from reliable sources, men SUCCEED far more often, but women ATTEMPT far more often. An attempt is often a cry for help, so it makes sense that men who feel hopeless enough to consider suicide mostly don't want to ask for help, and don't consider failure an option. After all, it would just be one more thing to be incompetent at.

I do feel that the current setup of our school systems is failing many boys. There are two pipelines, the school-to-prison and the school-to-college pipelines- those are the only two versions of masculinity that are being sold to our boys. Either you go to college and succeed as an Important Businessman or you gang up and commit Manly Criminal Acts (and often, especially for boys of color, this is expected of them and glorified in some ways). What of boys who could be satisfied and fulfilled in a blue-collar job? That used to be respectable, but now it's seen as many rungs below college careers. Or, even if they did go to school but found their joy in a traditionally female field such as teaching or nursing? Boys and men with those aspirations are often laughed at by their peers (notably, not usually by women- we love that shit).

Example: My little brother (turning 30 this year) is a welder. Personally, I think that's totally awesome, and a perfectly respectable job. He makes decent money and I love telling people my brother is a welder. He helps make John Deere/Hitachi tractors and farm equipment. But he's got a terrible sense of inferiority about it and is always "promising" us that he plans to go back to school for engineering. School was just never his gig- and IMO there should be separate tracks for folks who are just not academically inclined. There is no shame in having different talents.

He did have one terrible girlfriend who reinforced that hierarchy that he was "not living up to his potential" as a welder, but his wife now is not giving him those messages- she's proud of him in the job he's in. I worry a lot about him. Additionally, he holds himself to an impossible standard of self-reliance, and when the facade breaks and he loses his shit it's UGLY. And then he zips it back up and promises us he'll "do better." I try to tell him that it's okay if he needs to lean on us now and then, and maybe if he sought some support here and there he wouldn't feel like exploding.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Alright, well, when Durkheim analysed suicide he found it was men who were mainly the victims too, because men suffered more from identifying with the fortunes of their nation or society because they were not excluded from public life as women were, how you like those apples?

My point is, and remains, this is a BS article by some woman hater with a grudge against feminism who's trying to hang male suicide on both of those things and I think that not something that anyone should give the time of day, unfortunately there's likely to be just enough men who're likely to hear it out because misogyny is easy, doesnt demand anything of the individual and excuses a hell of a lot of learned helplessness and excuses.

You didn't read it that well. You skimmed it. I can tell. I'm almost inclined to think you didn't read it at all and are coming to some assumptions based on the discussions in this thread.

 

[Rasofy]

Red pill communities have a term for it: the burden of performance.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

If I'm not mistaken, and I don't have the time to look this up right now but I've consistently heard it from reliable sources, men SUCCEED far more often, but women ATTEMPT far more often. An attempt is often a cry for help, so it makes sense that men who feel hopeless enough to consider suicide mostly don't consider failure an option. After all, it would just be one more thing to be incompetent at.

I do feel that the current setup of our school systems is failing many boys. There are two pipelines, the school-to-prison and the school-to-college pipelines- those are the only two versions of masculinity that are being sold to our boys. Either you go to college and succeed as an Important Businessman or you gang up and commit Manly Criminal Acts (and often, especially for boys of color, this is expected of them and glorified in some ways). What of boys who could be satisfied and fulfilled in a blue-collar job? That used to be respectable, but now it's seen as many rungs below college careers. Or, even if they did go to school but found their joy in a traditionally female field such as teaching or nursing? Boys and men with those aspirations are often laughed at by their peers (notably, not usually by women- we love that shit).

Example: My little brother (turning 30 this year) is a welder. Personally, I think that's totally awesome, and a perfectly respectable job. He makes decent money and I love telling people my brother is a welder. He helps make John Deere/Hitachi tractors and farm equipment. But he's got a terrible sense of inferiority about it and is always "promising" us that he plans to go back to school for engineering. School was just never his gig- and IMO there should be separate tracks for folks who are just not academically inclined. There is no shame in having different talents.

He did have one terrible girlfriend who reinforced that hierarchy that he was "not living up to his potential" as a welder, but his wife now is not giving him those messages- she's proud of him in the job he's in. I worry a lot about him. Additionally, he holds himself to an impossible standard of self-reliance, and when the facade breaks and he loses his shit it's UGLY. And then he zips it back up and promises us he'll "do better." I try to tell him that it's okay if he needs to lean on us now and then, and maybe if he sought some support here and there he wouldn't feel like exploding.

On that note, I have thought since I went to high school in the 90s that trade schools should be emphasized and promoted more (to both sexes) as valid alternatives. Usually my teachers and guidance counselors stressed the importance of college but rarely mentioned trade school or technical college as viable career door openers. Maybe that's changed since I went? I don't know, but when I went, it seemed like the common message was, "go to college unless you wanna flip burgers." However, let's face it: some people either aren't cut out for college or simply aren't interested in being in an academic environment. They need to be placed in a different track post-college. It's not that they're stupid, but like I said, some people are simply uninterested in the standard college course structure and aren't going to need philosophy and higher science requirements to pursue a trade.

There's no shame in pursuing a trade such as electrical work, carpentry, et al. Many of those fields pay quite well.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

The whole thing about men, not allowed to show any weakness is outdated imo as well. That opinion would only be hold up by the lesser intellectual fortune.

It's changing for sure. I'd love to chat with you and discuss our failures, misfortunes and bad decisions we've made, perhaps even some trauma we've overcome, or not. I'll go first as well, to build trust. You can find me in ventrilo of course or PM me.

Furthermore I dont see the same reasons for an "identity crisis" for men. As it is often postulated in the media around my place, men suffer from loosing their traditional roles to woman.

That's mostly traditionalists complaining.

Didnt ever really get that, cause I can live my life without a woman and still be a man. Or better: I dont need a woman to be a man.

Awesome! Totally agree. A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle! (hope you get the reference )

What I rather experience and what could be called an identity crisis, is a lot of men in grave need of partners but not able to find one.

That may indeed be the case, but if you follow popular media it's almost entirely "where have all the good men gone". Me and you know, that they are there, like they've always been, it's just that 'expectations' have gone through the roof.

Like they never learned to be happy with themselves. Of course their may be times, you as a single may want a partner, but if that is a permanent obsession, something is wrong in the comand central.

I totally agree with the bolded. But ask yourself, why is that? Why haven't 'we' taught men to be happy with themselves, in your words. Me and you know it's certainly possible but surely you're aware of societal pressures to conform to some 'ideal' about what it is to be a man, and by extension, that means to get a gf, get married, have children, etc. etc.

I am ashamed of a lot of men nowadays.

I don't disagree per se, but that's pretty harsh when you factor in how men are 'made'. What I'd add is, Ok, DO something about it. Share your way of thinking, help them see the light

They chase for their obsession to find a partner and define their whole lifes around that. Instead of doing something useful, like watching television or peeing in a river.

Yet more AWESOME

I hope wehn I grow past the age of 30 that people get more normal again.

That will be more likely if men like you spread the word

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Some people, regardless of gender, highly value competence. Some don't. Different people, different values. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with people who value that, nor with those who don't value it.

I'd add that it depends on where these values come from. Are they yours? Have you thought it out? Or is it because that's what mom and dad, my friends and society at large says I should want.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'd add that it depends on where these values come from. Are they yours? Have you thought it out? Or is it because that's what mom and dad, my friends and society at large says I should want.

Personally, I value it to a healthy extent, but I think expectations my parents had of me growing up, and later those of my wife, have caused a lot of anxiety because they've led me to overvalue competence, often in many areas where I otherwise wouldn't have needed to expend the mental and emotional energy.

I realize I'm in a spot that I can't easily back out of without disastrous consequences, so I'm just trying to learn how to cope without putting too much stress on my mind and body.

Maybe I'll go all Walter White and start a drug empire.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Gender politics are the underlying issue with why men kill themselves...

I'd say it's related, indirectly, but not underlying. Culture underlies ideology that then spring forth. Ever ask why Americans love their guns and Australians don't? Culture

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I'm going to be frank and say this made me laugh initially, but then it occurred to me, that this is a thread about male suicide. Then it wasn't so funny anymore

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'm going to be frank and say this made me laugh initially, but then it occurred to me, that this is a thread about male suicide. Then it wasn't so funny anymore

Yeah, sorry about that. It's kind of sad that a discussion of this sort still brings in such vitriol and rancor in some people. It's disheartening to read people basically write the issue off and shrug or act like any attempt to get at the heart of the issue (as in the original article) is somehow a misogynistic assault on women.

 

[Xann]

I'd say it's related, indirectly, but not underlying. Culture underlies ideology that then spring forth. Ever ask why Americans love their guns and Australians don't? Culture

Gender politics are part and parcel of the underlying culture, perhaps even are the central and signifying theme of culture. Even in times before gender politics as they're conceived in our modern age were not enforced by official law they were for all intents and purposes still politics in a sense because of the strength and extent that gender roles were allowed to be enforced by majority consent and rule. Without the influence of feminism, would Australians have agreed to outlaw firearms? I'm not so certain.

 

[Ivy]

Another good article about the root causes of this phenomenon.

Toxic masculinity is killing men: The roots of male trauma - Salon.com

The emotionally damaging “masculinization” of boys starts even before boyhood, in infancy. Psychologist Terry Real, in his 1998 book I Don’t Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression, highlights numerous studies which find that parents often unconsciously begin projecting a kind of innate “manliness”—and thus, a diminished need for comfort, protection and affection—onto baby boys as young as newborns.

When a group of 204 adults was shown video of the same baby crying and given differing information about the baby’s sex, they judged the “female” baby to be scared, while the “male” baby was described as “angry.”

Intuitively, these differences in perception create correlating differences in the kind of parental caregiving newborn boys receive. In the words of the researchers themselves, “it would seem reasonable to assume that a child who is thought to be afraid is held and cuddled more than a child who is thought to be angry.” That theory is bolstered by other studies Real cites, which consistently find that “from the moment of birth, boys are spoken to less than girls, comforted less, nurtured less.” To put it bluntly, we begin emotionally shortchanging boys right out of the gate, at the most vulnerable point in their lives.

Undeniably, these kinds of lessons impart deeply damaging messages to both girls and boys, and have lifelong and observable consequences. But whereas, as Terry Real says, “girls are allowed to maintain emotional expressiveness and cultivate connection,” boys are not only told they should suppress their emotions, but that their manliness essentially depends on them doing so.

Little boys internalize this concept early; when I spoke to Real, he indicated that research suggests they begin to hide their feelings from as young as 3 to 5 years old. “It doesn’t mean that they have fewer emotions. But they’re already learning the game—that it’s not a good idea to express them,” Real says.

It is impossible to downplay the concurrent influence of images and messages about masculinity embedded in our media. TV shows and movies inform kids—and all of us, really—not so much about who men (and women) are, but who they should be. While much of the scholarship about gender depictions in media has come from feminists deconstructing the endless damaging representations of women, there’s been far less research specifically about media-perpetuated constructions of masculinity.

 

[Xann]

Perhaps instead of being goaded into giving up the very features that cause them to be attractive to the opposite sex in the first place, men should be taught to embrace these innate aspects and inclinations instead of being taught to hate themselves for who and what nature intended them to be.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

...the idea of the disposable man predates feminism and womens' rights movements. Working class men have been regarded as disposable by both men and women for centuries, and perhaps since hunter-gatherer society.

Excellent, we agree. Now draw about this observation. Are we talking about 'nature'? Or something else? What else? Broaden the lens. You already know the answer methinks, gynocentrism.

Where MRAs go wrong in this regard is in framing their movement as a response to the most toxic branches of feminist thought, rather than as a response to modes of thinking that predate feminism as a movement.

I'd also add center left egalitarians. Me and you know that there are 2 branches of MRA's the minority who push for men's rights and the anti feminist majority. However even within the MRAs it's not really even anti-feminism per se, but anti MISANDRY.

Really, men's rights and women's rights should be sibling movements in a greater move toward an egalitarian society.

You're being too reasonable and therefore idealistic I'd add, please define egalitarian, equality of opportunity, or outcomes?

I think the red pillers, feminist bloggers, MRA bloggers, etc are a bunch of children who don't care about egalitarianism so much as gaining the upper hand and building a society that benefits their own interests. Fuck everyone.

I don't disagree but I'd add, this is to be human, we want what we want. That said, does it surprise you that feminists want what they want and only use equality as cover? Now ask yourself, does the MRA do this? Are they advocating for the government to enact laws that specifically benefit men?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Men kill themselves because of women?

Whoa! Slow down turbo, who said that? Is this 'your' conclusion? Do you have evidence to support this? I'm going go out on a limb and call strawman.

I'm tried of all this BS circular logic,

What logic, and how is it circular? Can you quote some examples or I dunno, provide evidence?

...if you hate women and that's your bag, grand...

Hate women? Again, do you have something you can quote so I can assess your statement or something from memory? Show me da money, evidence please. Name names.

you're not going to get anywhere with that attitude, but dont keep attempting to rationalise and generalise your personal, not to mention pathetic, grievances and grudges.

You seem to have been 'triggered' or experiencing an amygdala hijack, you might wanna take a break and come back to the thread when 'it' is gone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack

 

[SpankyMcFly]

I think its a little bit of an insult to politics to even associate this sort of nonsense with it, it all boils down to enmity and jealousy of women, somenoe's head is fucked up with that shit and they're working hard to spread it around.

Gotcha, so you don't like people talking about things and 'spreading' it. Suggestion, use your ENTJ powers and show them how they are wrong with an evidence backed counter argument vs. stating an opinion with much vitriol, or not. Up to you, but atm this seems like so much emotional vomit with little redeeming value, since you wont/dont share how you arrived at such conclusions.

 

[Ivy]

Mother fuck. I give up.