Legitimate Type Me Thread

[Sil]

[MENTION=22628]Sil[/MENTION] I am 95% certain (if not completely convinced) that you are an ENFJ. I am one, and I am frequently mistaken for an ESTJ, and when I take MBTI tests, more often than not it comes out as ESTJ. But, ESTJ I am not. Hell, even [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] mistook me for one for a brief period when I first showed up here. She's met me in person though and despite her and I sharing a ton in common due to our enneagram, she has seen that I am indeed ENFJ.

To start, I read (skimmed some parts) and pulled some statements that you have said that I either strongly relate to, are either indictive of ENFJ, or both of them:



I really could have written a large part of this myself. I am an ENFJ, but I am decidedly not one of those "fluffy bunny love everyone!" people. I'm actually quite harsh, and very aggressive. The thing about Fe, is it's often written in terms of emotional and subjective contexts. However, that's not all it does. It's an external objective function that unlike with Te, is ok with integrating subjective information into decisions and plans. In fact it's essential more often than not, and the Fe user might not even be aware of it. I will certainly take objective proof and explaninations over subjective any day. That will get people on board. Fe wants to be productive and useful, it's hugely important to it. It's tricky at times because Fe can look like Te depending on the individual. Mine sure does, but ultimately I use Fe because I pull on subjective information, and often rely on things that are "self-evident and obvious" that Te seldom ever does.

Despite what you say, I FIRMLY see you on the Ni/Se axis. You describe quite a number of Ni based thought processes all the time, and actually weight on it heavily. You're also very ok with externalizing it, and naturally know how to give it a voice. Which, is why you think it appears to be Ne based. You ultimately always tie Ni contexts down, often very early. Ne doesn't do that. Further, I don't see any evidence of you using Si. Your internal information gathering and thought processes are very abstract, non-linear, and that doesn't bother you. Internals MUST make sense and be linearized for an Si user. You completely understand your internals, but they aren't "organized" per-say.

And then there is this:



This is SO inferior Ti it hurts. This isn't inferior Fi at all. I made a thread about what inferior Ti is a few months ago. Unfortunately, it's not really well defined anywhere, but EJCC made a very succinct statement for explaining them both:



All of what you have written aligns much more strongly with inferior Ti. You seem to break down into an autopilot mode that is rather cold. This is what broken down Fe does, it autopilots. It might seem driven by Si as well but it's not. In your case it is driven by Se, as it is very good at recalling information and applying it in the know without any conscious thought. It sort of just happens out of a sense of faith or trust based on how it has always occurred.

Your enneagram also is going to effect your type. At the moment, I don't know what your type is within enneagram, but here's what I think on each type:

1: Not a chance. I don't see any neurosis of 1, and I don't believe EJCC has either, and we are effectively the resident experts on this type here.
2: Not a chance in hell. This is important because Fe dom's that are not 2's, very frequently appear much less Fe-like.
3: This is possible, but I am not convinced. It's not uncommon for ENFJ's to be 3's, and if you weren't this type it would further explain why it feels odd to you. Type descriptions are often written stylized with certain enneagrams, and with ENFJ's it's 2 and 3. If you aren't those, it feels off.
4: Nope. Don't need to explain this one.
5: I doubt it. You are too externally focused.
6: This is possible, but I am not convinced. You seem to lack the perma-tension that 6's nearly always have, and in threads like this it always comes out.
7: I think this is your most likely enneagram. It's a rare matchup for an ENFJ, but it does happen. This would also very well explain your seeming connection with Ne.
8: I think this might be possible, but I see a lack of aggression and drive for protection (both self and others) that emerges with ENFJ's of this type.
9: Not a chance. You are not passive nor go with the flow enough.

Tritype might help sort this a bit better two. I think that 3 is in your mix, 7 is in your mix, and 8 is in your mix. Put that together and it actually fits rather nicely and explains the "holes" that ENFJ might appear to have. My tritype explains the holes with my type.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have questions, but I might be rather slow to respond as I am on vacation for the holidays and have stuff to do.

Thank you for the detailed breakdown. I'll look more into the ENFJ type.

 

[Sil]

1. Because I tend not to worry about the emotions of other people, and I tend not to take their well-being into account when I make decisions. Yes, I know how to get reactions out of people, and how to persuade them, but I usually focus on the desired outcome of things and the steps I will take in order to complete that task.

Yes, this is something I do. I usually only remember afterwards to consider how people feel.

 

[chubber]

Thank you for the detailed breakdown. I'll look more into the ENFJ type.

Does the inferior Ti type ring any bells?

 

[existence]

1. Because I tend not to worry about the emotions of other people, and I tend not to take their well-being into account when I make decisions. Yes, I know how to get reactions out of people, and how to persuade them, but I usually focus on the desired outcome of things and the steps I will take in order to complete that task.

OK. Give me a specific example of such a desired outcome of things that you focus on.

2. I like to organize things into time-based structures and find the most economical, common sense based, direct way to complete the tasks/plans in hand. I am more focused on the events happening, than the people I need to get results. I like doing things my own way, using the resources I have, rather than rely on other people and their outcomes. I can also take instructions/read them well, and focus on steps for solving problems that I have written myself, or other people have written. I tend to be pretty persistent at reading and reading until I can fix the problem ahead, if I can't solve it.

Doesn't say much on a specific type (that is, more than one option here).

3. I focus on facts, and have a massive database of knowledge built up on my laptop, and at home through books etc., and go back to them when I need to find out how to do something/need a resource for something. I am good at finding relevant sources from external information to back up my sources/points in essay and am good at sourcing where I got those from.

Same as previous one.

4. I can be extremely cold at times. I never really show any genuine emotions at all, unless I am under stress. My emotional side comes out when I am unhealthy. All my emotions seem 'robotic' if and when I use them. I am usually direct, outspoken, upfront and focused. I'm not really one for politeness, and expression, even at funerals or when someone is born. More times than usual, I tend not to bother with celebrations/gifts, and don't expect much (if anything) in return. I don't have many shared group values/strong beliefs compared to the ENFJs I see.

"At times" in your first sentence. I noticed F types call themselves cold in those moments. As a contrast, I don't feel cold, when I'm focusing on impersonal logic. It's just normal neutral. I find it funny how the F types call that cold.

4a. I have a friend, who I strongly suspect is an ENFJ [he is an Fe-Dom anyway], and he is overly expressive, gets into the spirit of celebrations fast, values harmony, fair and likes t cheer people up. He also is incredibly social, and engages in interaction with people. He is pleasant, and values manners and social appropriateness a lot more than I do, and although I am pretty extroverted and social, my conversations are nothing like his, and I am a lot more business-minded and technical/problem solver (yes, Google is my best friend) than he is. And my social circle doesn't tend to be as massive as his.

Sounds like a lot of enneagram differences mixed in here.

I know a few ENFJ's, this description doesn't exactly fit some of them. The parts on being so overly incredibly social and extraverted and pleasant at all times. Your friend could also be an ESFJ.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

The bulk of it comes from the whole part about planning. Kind of like what [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] mention in the ask an ESTJ thread. Si doesn't plan 20 years ahead. That seems like much more of an Ni characteristic to me. If I plan ahead at all, it's only a few years. I can't see that far ahead of me. I don't know what obstacles the future may bring that I could be unprepared for, so my long-term plans are more of a general, loose picture than a structured 20 year plan, and even then I don't know for sure where I'll end up.

It also has to do with the Si being involuntary. The word "involuntary" makes it sound like something that you do against your will, with a negative connotation--could just be me interpreting word choice poorly. As an Si dom (which would of course be different from aux), Si is in a way "involuntary", but it isn't the word I would use since I'm interpreting it as negative... it's more like... unconscious. Constantly acting. Never stops. It is how I perceive the world, literally all the time, like a ticking clock. It wouldn't be as extreme for an ESxJ, I don't think, since it's their auxillary--but it would still have quite a bit of weight.

Your previous quote in particular makes a good example:

This seems very Ni/Se to me, especially if you're seeing the where you want to be many years into the future.
As an Si-dom, if I make a plan and something unexpected happens, it's harder for me to find alternative pathways. It's more like my entire plan has come crumbling down, and it's not until the inferior Ne activates that I'm able to try and brainstorm a way through/around it. It is not something that comes naturally or easily to me. I rely on the predictable and I rely on stability and consistency when I make plans. That is the foundation. If that foundation crumbles, I am lost.

I disagree strongly about "Si doesn't plan 20 years ahead" I know xSTJ's very well as far as growing up with them, in intimate relationships, family and they do plan this far in advance.

They may not view it as such. They may not definitely say "this will happen" it is more, "I would like this to happen" but they work toward a bigger picture by knocking out smaller ones.

Like, I said before - rungs on a ladder. They aim for the top but know they can't get there without climbing a little at a time.

Which is why, IMO, they may not see the quality of long-term planning in their own minds because they are more focused on each rung of the ladder at the given time.

I agree that Ne in ISTJs works more as a "what if" worst case scenario happens, it finds solutions to this in different possibilities but in ESTJs, Ne looks a bit different.

 

[chubber]

I disagree strongly about "Si doesn't plan 20 years ahead" I know xSTJ's very well as far as growing up with them, in intimate relationships, family and they do plan this far in advance.

They may not view it as such. They may not definitely say "this will happen" it is more, "I would like this to happen" but they work toward a bigger picture by knocking out smaller ones.

Like, I said before - rungs on a ladder. They aim for the top but know they can't get there without climbing a little at a time.

Which is why, IMO, they may not see the quality of long-term planning in their own minds because they are more focused on each rung of the ladder at the given time.

I agree that Ne in ISTJs works more as a "what if" worst case scenario happens, it finds solutions to this in different possibilities but in ESTJs, Ne looks a bit different.

I would almost dare to say Se is the one who hates long term planning.

 

[Sil]

Does the inferior Ti type ring any bells?

There are some elements to it that are familiar, but by and large no. Also, I do not see anything in Fe-dom that describes me.

I will keep looking, though.

 

[EJCC]

There are some elements to it that are familiar, but by and large no. Also, I do not see anything in Fe-dom that describes me.

I will keep looking, though.

Why didn't you relate to it?

Have you looked into Hard's post a bit more?

 

[Sil]

Hidden is an additional review of Naomi Q's description of Fe-dom:

Extraverted Feeling (Fe) types typically radiate goodwill and enthusiasm.They are optimistic about life in general, and human potential in particular.They prefer to focus on the positive, harmonious, and uplifting aspects of people and human relations, paying little attention to negative, pessimistic, limiting, and divisive messages, situations, and conclusions.Their primary goal is to create and maintain good feeling and harmony among people.

NOTE: The underlined above I think warrants particular comment. I don't notice any of this. It's not something on my radar at all. People are not on my radar unless I need to go through them to get something I need.

Although ESFJs and ENFJs may recognize judgments that rely heavily on logical analysis, cause-and-effect relationships, and statistical odds, they largely ignore such factors in making decisions. Others may therefore see these types as making decisions that “fly in the face of logic.” Thinking types may be particularly puzzled and frustrated when an Extraverted Feeling type accurately describes the logical conclusions warranted by a situation but decides in favor of harmony and caring. From a Thinking point of view, using such a criterion in decision making is inappropriate.

NOTE: I love cause and effect relationships. LOVE THEM. Man, they are fucking awesome, especially if the answer is not immediately obvious and I have to work to figure out the connection. This is a huge part of my current job and I take a lot of pleasure in connecting cause-effect. As an aside, this love extends to non-people things, haha. Cause-effect in people is only of interest in that I like to resolve (on a mental level) so I understand the dynamic going on. I hate not having a full picture.

On another note, I don't ignore those. They largely inform my decisions. Also, ignore logical conclusions in face of harmony? No.

There was a period where I did try ignoring logical conclusions in favor of harmony and caring. It was a pretty fucking awful six months of my life. I quickly learned it was not something I could do and so resolved never to do it again.

Extraverted Feeling types are careful not to hurt others’ feelings and try to take others’ well-being into account.

This deserves its own mention because not a single person in my life (not ONE) will ever tell you I do this. Not even the people I treat better. I'm not an asshole, but I am distinctly known for not being this kind of person. At least not naturally. I'm actually tempted to show this to my friends and ask just to get a kick out of their responses.

If they cannot avoid telling someone an unpleasant truth, they will carefully soften the message by putting it in an affirmative context. Unconditional positive regard is a strongly held value.

I do this to an extent, but it's a learned behavior, not a natural one.

As a result of their natural pleasure in pleasing others, Extraverted Feeling types can mistakenly be seen as overly caring or even codependent. In reality, attending to others’ needs is usually a satisfying, legitimate way of expressing their dominant Feeling preference.

No. Not at all. Reading this is like reading a manual on how not to be me.

In a crisis that does not activate their inferior function, ESFJs and ENFJs focus on alleviating the concerns and suffering of others.They are comfortable letting others manage the more technical aspects of a crisis so they can devote their energies to creating a cooperative, comfortable atmosphere for crisis victims. When a situation demands more forceful methods, however, they will take any action necessary for the benefit of others.

No, I prefer technical aspects. In a crisis, I'd rather be the one troubleshooting the mechanics of how to fix the problem any day. Give the people away to someone else.

Seriously, this is actually getting funny as I read it.

 

[Sil]

Regarding Ti:

Pulling a quote from Cellmold on Hard's link:

Suddenly I'm inadequate, irritable and moody. I'm projecting this onto others and most obviously clash with stronger Ti types, there is evidence on here and certainly has been on vent, though perhaps people may not have noticed except those directly involved. Lots of criticism thrown out about others but without any of the considered and impersonal quality of a balanced Ti type.

A mild obsession with logical consistency, but often with tons of holes and personal bias. Lots of poor speculating about others and their motivations (everyone is against me paranoia). If adhered to without using it as an opportunity to learn it can turn into a huge and childish outburst for me resulting in a non-literal form of self destruction of what I once was in identity.

Takes quite a while to recover after this and I retreat into existentialism and looking for some magical outward object that will solve all my problems. But no such object exists and I eventually realise I need to examine myself when before I had been avoiding it.

Then I learn a form of understanding which is a coping mechanism to diffuse my negative approach to the abyss. A cognitive protection such as is employed by any human to survive in comparative sanity.

Then I try to absorb the trigger and understand it for next time, to be more prepared for it.

Underlined I do not relate to. Bolded I do.

The one thing that resonates with the inferior Ti description is the search for a new perspective to help put things in a manageable light. That is definitely something I do. Referring to the moving example I referenced earlier, I definitely had a moment where I felt my own tension getting the best of me. So I channeled it into "well if you're worried, what's the worst that can happen" thought-process. Then brainstormed that line of thinking until it lead to a place where I could really laugh at it.

For example, I took my concern about moving and followed the line of thought until ended with me living in my grandparents' backyard in a tent drawing posters for washed up jazz singers in a local dive bar.

At that point, the whole fear became funny and I was able to shrug off thinking about the what-ifs.

That is probably quite Ti-inferior.


However, the rest of the Ti descriptions don't fit. Obsession with logical consistency, no. Speculation about motivations, eh. It depends, but largely no. Existentialism, no.

To pull another Ti inferior description:

Inferior: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

Recall the aforementioned conflict between the ENFJ's personal desires and those of his groups and associations with others: at the core of this conflict lies Fe's struggle against inferior Ti. When a situation arises in which the ENFJ's sense of personal logic and causal reasoning contradicts everything his external obligations suggest he should support, substantial psychological difficulties can arise. Torn between the objectively supported mutual responsibilities by which his conscious mind defines his identity and the unconscious personal/subjective desire for personal consistency, Ti manifests itself as an uncomfortable representation of his personal conscience, pestering him in the back of his mind: "Something here just doesn't make sense."

The real difficulty will occur when the ENFJ is forced to confront a disconnect between the needs of others and his own need to behave in a way he can feel consistent and fair to himself about--this will almost invariably shower him in feelings of guilt and selfishness for failure to set aside his own needs in favor of upholding the overall welfare of the larger group. Since dominant Fe sees the individual's well-being as near-unconditionally subservient to that of the larger group or preservation of group obligations, the process of rationalizing subjective, individual judgment and balancing it against his outwardly substantiated connections and responsibilities to others will certainly be an arduous process at best.

In practice, this tends to manifest itself in the form of self-denigrating behavior, and some rather disconcerting attempts to redouble the ENFJ's efforts to support the group's well-being in a (typically futile) attempt to squelch out the personal desires and private values that she views as the cause of her problems. In reality, it is not the simple presence of personalized judgment that is the source of the problem, but rather the inability to integrate its role in cognition into a cohesive worldview that balances personal needs and concerns against those of close family/friends/associates. Because the ENFJ's entire self-image rests on her ability to reliably care for and support the needs of her loved ones, and to provide a living example of the values she shares with them, indulging any personal whim or logical critique of the customs and moral values she sees as central to the group's ethos comes as a difficult challenge that may threaten the whole idea of that which her dominant attitude rests on. Only through the realization that her commitment to centralized ethical standards and placing the emotional needs of others above her own is in itself a personal value on her part will the ENFJ learn to equate and integrate the (seemingly) opposing forces represented by dominant Fe and inferior Ti.

Non-underlined, non-bolded is what I don't relate to, underlined is pro-actively unlike me.

An inferior Ti description from Naomi Q:

The Everyday Introverted Thinking
of Extraverted Feeling Types


The inferior function affects Extraverted Feeling types in several different ways. These include their everyday sensitivities, projections, and ways of relaxing, as well as the dramatic manifestations that can be seen when the inferior erupts and a full-blown episode occurs, or when an ESFJ or ENFJ is chronically in the grip because of long-term stress.


Typical Sensitivities and Projections


Extraverted Feeling types can be particularly sensitive about others’ assessment of their intellectual competence. Although they don’t usually doubt their abilities, they may worry that they have not communicated their knowledge clearly. In comparing themselves to others, they may see themselves as slow to learn and lacking in analytical facility.Though many, especially ENFJs, are high achievers, some feel they are at a disadvantage in highly intellectual and technical endeavors.

Bolded is what I'm feeling about this entire thread.

This sensitivity about their intellectual competence makes Extraverted Feeling types particularly attuned to comments that could be interpreted as reflecting on their adequacy. In the early stages of an inferior function episode, this may manifest as a projection onto others of their own feared incompetence.They may notice and comment on others’ inaccuracies and their failure to recognize reality and confront the truth.

Can't think of a period of time where I've experienced this.

Such projection can be seen in the intensity with which they criticize others’ behavior, particularly in the area of control. An ESFJ became furious whenever her INTP supervisor barged into her office and interrupted her to talk about whatever was important to him at the time. In reflecting on her reaction, she realized that she herself needed to resist barging in on others and demanding their attention when she had a problem to solve or was upset about something.

No.

Extraverted Feeling types may be quick to identify other people’s illogical behavior, but they may apply a different set of criteria to their own equally nonlogical actions. An ENFJ complained that his INFP wife’s art studio was not set up systematically.“You really should put things into some logical order so they’ll be right there when you need them,” he told her. She replied that her current system suited her way of working. “But it’s just not rational,” he responded. When his wife likened the “disorganization” he perceived in her studio to his illogical way of organizing his household chores—his inefficient way of ordering tasks and his tendency to leave tasks half done—he insisted that this was not the same thing.“The cleaning gets done, doesn’t it?” he said heatedly. “My artwork gets done, too,” she replied. He remained blind to the similarity.


I relate to bolded to an extent. The criteria is I am okay with being a hypocrite when it serves my interests. I don't miss the lack of congruent thinking like the ENFJ in this example does.

Expressions Through Interests and Hobbies

Perhaps because the demands of their daily work and home lives require them to use their less-preferred processes, Extraverted Feeling types seem to choose recreational activities that engage their dominant and auxiliary functions rather than their tertiary or inferior ones.They enjoy such activities as entertaining, playing bridge, participating in group sports, and generally socializing. A hardworking, highly regarded ENFJ district attorney loved to organize large dinner parties that brought together people from different parts of her busy life. Extraverted Feeling types are often avid readers who enjoy discussing books with friends or becoming active members of book groups.

Well shit. My hobbies are drinking sake (alone), reading about cryptography (alone), and hiking (alone).

I enjoy talking with friends when I have the opportunity, though.

Entertaining/hosting is something I listed earlier as a personal hate.

I enjoy group activities once I get into them, but I can be loathe to start them as it feels like they restrict my personal freedom (one of the reasons I haven't joined a hiking group...I want to hike where I am interested in hiking. Also, people interrupt the silence of nature.).

Home improvement hobbies are also quite satisfying to Extraverted Feeling types. Sewing, crafting, building, carpentry, decorating, and gardening are often mentioned as enjoyable activities. ESFJs and ENFJs may be great joiners of civic, political, or school-related groups and tend to willingly take on leadership roles. One ESFJ, who enjoys a demanding career, takes pleasure in cooking elaborate meals for others,working in her garden so it will look beautiful, and writing lengthy letters to old friends— all activities that give her special joy because she has so little time for them.

Home improvement, yes. I enjoy those things when I find the time for them. I'm a visual/kinesthetic learner, so I enjoy working with my hands on things that require fine attention to detail from time to time. I also like the sense of accomplishment that comes from legitimate DIY projects.

ESFJs and ENFJs may also enthusiastically support the work, interests, and hobbies of their spouses and/or children, taking great pleasure in developing at least some expertise in the relevant areas. One ENFJ learned all he could about his wife’s research area and was as genuinely excited as she was when the results fit her hypotheses.

No data.

Eruptions of Inferior Introverted Thinking


When one or more of the preconditions for an eruption of the inferior function are present, Introverted Thinking appears in its more exaggerated, disruptive form.

Typical Provocations or Triggers


Extraverted Feeling types respond with inferior Introverted Thinking when they perceive they are being misunderstood, not trusted, not taken seriously, or pressured to conform to some prevailing view with which they disagree. In fact, any situation in which conflict persists and remains unresolved can activate the inferior function of ESFJs and ENFJs. Being unable to use their natural preferences can also serve as a provocation since it arouses their sensitivity about their competence. An ESFJ mentioned as triggers “too many things to do all at once; short time frames, extra responsibilities and tasks that require me to think on my own and don’t allow me to bounce ideas off of others.”

No to underlined. If conflict isn't readily solved and it's not impacting what I need to get done, I ignore it. I've had this discussion with a good INFJ friend. When there is an argument between her and someone she cares about, she wants to talk it out and resolve it on the spot and achieve a sense of harmony between her and the person. I would just prefer time off to let my feelings blow over and then ignore the whole thing. Or, if necessary, come back and talk about it logically and without emotion at a later point in time.

When asked what provoked being “beside himself,” an ENFJ responded, “too many demands and feeling that I’m not appreciated, that I’m being taken for granted, and that what I do doesn’t matter to anyone.”

I don't notice whether or not I am appreciated. It's always a surprise when people notice.

I do notice when people try to take advantage of me. It doesn't happen because I'm very aware of it.

I've never thought about whether or not what I do matters to other people. As I mentioned elsewhere, that's not a natural factor I consider.

I do, however, occasionally get struck by thoughts that people are not to be relied upon. When pushed, people will always choose themselves. If I want something, I am my own biggest advocate; I can't/don't expect others to help me get it.

Another ENFJ cited “impersonal treatment, criticism, and not being appreciated for my contribution.” An ESFJ said “when people disagree with my point of view and attack me personally.”Another cited “if I can’t get my point across no matter how hard I try; when I’m not allowed to talk something out to get it resolved.”

There it is. I have a Fe friend who gets angry as hell with me when I don't let her do this. She throws an absolute bitch fit when I tell her I don't care about it being resolved.

In the interest of not pissing her off anymore than necessary, I've tried to accommodate her demands and talk things out. But it is awkward, unnatural, and something I hate doing. But hey, friendship.

ESFJs and ENFJs recognize that disagreements can arise and that criticism is a necessary aspect of working with people. However, the way in which critiquing and conflict are handled makes a difference. An ENFJ stated that what could provoke an inferior function response for her was “criticism that is delivered in an unfeeling way—or when I find out that I have done something that hurt another person and the person doesn’t tell me until months later.”

This actually does irritate me if the person didn't let it go for all those months. If they let it go it doesn't matter. But if they've been harboring it and dwelling on it without bothering to bring it up, it pisses me off.

Triggers and Stressors at Work

Work environments that force conformity to values that are contrary to those of the Extraverted Feeling type, that place other concerns above the welfare of people, and that fail to recognize the individual contributions and value of employees are very stressful for ESFJs and ENFJs. For one ESFJ, the work demands that are most stressful are “high technology, strong competition between work peers, a lack of opportunity to show my strengths, and being placed in situations in which I am constantly using my inferior function.”

No data to assess this. I've worked in some places where I definitely didn't share the values of people I worked with, but it just made me indifferent overall.

Conflict in the workplace is also upsetting for Extraverted Feeling types.Working with uncooperative or undermining people and dealing with an overwhelming workload are particularly stressful for ESFJs. Female ENFJs often mention dealing with details, general disorganization, and lack of recognition as quite stressful. One cited “details, proofreading—routine detail tasks,” and another, “plowing through detail” as sources of work stress.

If it impedes progress, then absolutely.

In work situations in which the particular stressors for Extraverted Feeling types continue over long periods, ESFJs and ENFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of “grip” behavior will be frequent and pervasive.When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Introverted Thinking, they are likely to lose touch with their natural optimism and trust in human potential and become negative, critical, and judgmental toward everything and everyone around them.

No, outside of identifying people as looking out for themselves, I'm not negative even in my bad moments. At least, not to a degree that anyone would actually consider negative.

 

[Sil]

Why didn't you relate to it?

Have you looked into Hard's post a bit more?

I did. I also cross referenced it with several cog function descriptions.


I'll break it down below:

FE OVERVIEW [DEFINITIONS, DESCRIPTIONS]:

Te - Fe - if dominant, you like making decisions and applying information more so than taking it in, understanding it, or really even responding to it.

Source: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/80774-breakdown-functions-confusion-type.html

Fe - makes decisions and acts on information with emotions and empathy

Source: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/80774-breakdown-functions-confusion-type.html

"The thing about Fe, is it's often written in terms of emotional and subjective contexts. However, that's not all it does. It's an external objective function that unlike with Te, is ok with integrating subjective information into decisions and plans."

"I will certainly take objective proof and explaninations over subjective any day. That will get people on board. Fe wants to be productive and useful, it's hugely important to it. It's tricky at times because Fe can look like Te depending on the individual. Mine sure does, but ultimately I use Fe because I pull on subjective information, and often rely on things that are "self-evident and obvious" that Te seldom ever does."

Source http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/80228-legitimate-type-thread-10.html

Dominant: Extroverted Feeling (Fe)

"I think I would say that my most valuable gift is that I understand people. I know what their needs are, and I know how they relate to other people's needs, and I'm good at connecting different kinds of people in a way that helps them help each other. I think it's really important to know who your friends are, and to remember to stay loyal to the people you're close to. I'm a really good listener, and I try my best to take people's concerns seriously and respond in a way that I know will make them feel more comfortable, more at ease with whatever problem they're having. I'm good at figuring out what people think is important, and then fitting in with their expectations and making a positive, lasting impression when I interact with them. I like to be seen as confident and capable, but also sympathetic to people's feelings and ideas. I don't generally have any problem organizing people and leading them toward a common goal--since I can identify so well with most people, I can be pretty persuasive; often I can see very easily the middle ground between opposing perspectives, and from there it's just a matter of explaining people's differences in a way that makes both parties happy. I really like it when I can make a positive difference to someone in a meaningful way--I try to show the world my best side as often as I can. More than anything, though, it's important to be there for the people that matter to you--if you can't do that, how can you expect anyone else to be there for you?"

Often mistaken for a variety of other types due to their renowned interpersonal abilities, ENFJs may very well be the one type least in need of typological methodology. As type theory itself is intended primarily to increase understanding of foreign value systems in order to improve ability to interact effectively with others--something healthy ENFJs tend to do so naturally they can scarcely turn it off--they may often find themselves so naturally adept at accommodating and outwardly validating the values of others that they can appear almost chameleon-like in how their behavior may change from one group to the next. As dominant extroverted feelers, ENFJs are champions of the values espoused by their communities, and they make concerted efforts to make themselves into living examples of those values, both for their own benefit and for that of those around them.

When discussing Fe dominants, it's important to note that the collectivized moral ideals by which they define their identities are not limited to traditional family or community groups. It's a common mistake to assume that ENFJs will automatically change their values to fit whatever group happens to physically surround them at the moment--and while they may do this when they wish to make a particular impression, or when the group immediately surrounding them holds values that don't conflict substantially with those they find important, their primary focus in life is aligning themselves with groups of other people with whom they can develop a common moral viewpoint and thus establish an objective system of ethical expectations by which everyone can be held accountable. Unlike Fi types, who develop highly individualized, internal moral compasses, ENFJs may often wonder how they can make any meaningful moral decision without knowing how the people they find important (i.e., those with whom their relationships create the fabric of their public identities) feel about the issue in question. This is not to say ENFJs don't have any moral ideas of their own; they simply conceptualize morality as a concept that should be discussed and agreed upon by the groups of people who intend to define their relationships to each other through common adherence to them.

As Fe dominants, ENFJs strive to make themselves into paragons of the ideals and values represented by their connections to others. They're generally very aware of the implications of who they choose to associate themselves with, and they tend to know just how to say whatever it is that they need to say to get others on board with their causes and goals. It's not uncommon to see them championing the causes of the weak and downtrodden--in many cases, their rare ability to "translate" between competing value systems combines with their natural interpersonal organizational skills to produce an unusually powerful, charismatic presence. The skills commonly associated with this mindset may be applied toward both positive and very negative ends. While few can unite a crowd under a common goal with the ENFJ's unique balance of personal charm and decisive vision, not all of them are above abusing this gift for purposes of ousting or defaming an enemy--no one can an appeal to an entire group's collective sentiments and convince them to brand someone "an outsider" faster than an ENFJ.

Another major issue that often arises for both Fe dominant types (ENFJ, ESFJ) is the tendency to spend so much time focusing on the feelings and needs of others that one's own emotional necessities may become neglected or, worse, completely ignored. Intent on adjusting the way they feel to the way the people close to them feel, Fe dominants may run into substantial conflicts of interest when their own private assessments of people or situations fly in the face of the cultural and social expectations espoused by the people they love and respect. Conflict avoidance and mediation become major points of interest--since conflict between members of the same party suggests discord among the values that create the bond between the members thereof (which threatens the fabric of cultural connection upon which interpersonal groupings are founded), ENFJs view ability to set aside one's own misgivings in favor of that which will benefit their associates to be the ultimate sign of selflessness and maturity. Manifestations of this outlook may be something of a double-edged sword: while this leads many ENFJs to develop their natural talents at conflict resolution and caregiving, it may result in a confusing disconnect between what the ENFJ really does want, and that which he is expected to want--that which the others to whom he holds obligations desire. Overemphasis on dominant Fe may result in difficulty with defining any sort of clear sense of self at all!

Source: http://personalitycafe.com/enfj-articles/386594-enfj-jungian-cognitive-function-analysis.html


RESPONSE:

Te - Fe - if dominant, you like making decisions and applying information more so than taking it in, understanding it, or really even responding to it.

This is true. I enjoy acting on information far more than stewing on it. Sitting on information is a hobby and a pleasure when there is is no real world demand to act on it, but it's not my natural inclination.

Fe - makes decisions and acts on information with emotions and empathy

I am reading this as: makes decisions with emotions and empathy. acts on information with emotions and empathy.

I could get into exceptions where this does occur, but I won't. Suffice to say that 1) it's not my natural state to make decisions using either emotions or empathy and 2) when I do consider the emotions of others, it's processed in the same fashion as a fact, albeit lower on the scale of importance.

By and large, acting on emotions and empathy is not a natural inclination. When it does occur, it is largely a learned habit, one that occurs because the natural response is not efficient to resolving the situation.

"The thing about Fe, is it's often written in terms of emotional and subjective contexts. However, that's not all it does. It's an external objective function that unlike with Te, is ok with integrating subjective information into decisions and plans."

This is a terribly vague sentence, so I can't do much with it without adding a lot of context.

The short answer is that when I do consider people's emotions, I take it and process it like I would a statistic: it's a fact. It's another element to be weighed in decision making IF ignoring it will have any outstanding repercussions. There are times where not counting it in decision making leads to very bad outcomes (consider an architect rounding Pi to 3.14 when designing a suspension bridge).

"I will certainly take objective proof and explanations over subjective any day. That will get people on board. Fe wants to be productive and useful, it's hugely important to it. It's tricky at times because Fe can look like Te depending on the individual. Mine sure does, but ultimately I use Fe because I pull on subjective information, and often rely on things that are "self-evident and obvious" that Te seldom ever does."

The bolded. It's that Fe, group-minded awareness. I don't have it unless I'm consciously applying it. And at that point, it's not a preference. As to self-evident and obvious, again, too vague a statement to really give a response to.


Re: the dominant Fe description, bolded is what I relate to. Non-underlined, non-bolded is what I don't relate to, underlined is pro-actively unlike me.

Also, so far as I'm aware, none of the quotes Hard pulled indicate any real preference other than the last one (where I attributed the response to Si).

I'm surprised people in this thread are seeing Fe-dom. I'm not sure where my answers indicated a preference or knack for group dynamics (and the inclination to consider them in my decision making).



To add further, I don't see Se. I've read through multiple descriptions of Se both in and out of the ENFJ type. None of them relate. It's probably the one function I absolutely don't see in myself.

 

[Sil]

All of what you have written aligns much more strongly with inferior Ti. You seem to break down into an autopilot mode that is rather cold. This is what broken down Fe does, it autopilots. It might seem driven by Si as well but it's not. In your case it is driven by Se, as it is very good at recalling information and applying it in the know without any conscious thought. It sort of just happens out of a sense of faith or trust based on how it has always occurred.

I know what you are referencing when you say this, but it's not the same thing. My autopilot versus inferior Ti autopilot are different. It's not broken Fi, it's a complete drop of pretense. Something didn't go missing, it simply stopped pretending to be there.

Your enneagram also is going to effect your type. At the moment, I don't know what your type is within enneagram, but here's what I think on each type:

1: Not a chance. I don't see any neurosis of 1, and I don't believe EJCC has either, and we are effectively the resident experts on this type here.
2: Not a chance in hell. This is important because Fe dom's that are not 2's, very frequently appear much less Fe-like.
3: This is possible, but I am not convinced. It's not uncommon for ENFJ's to be 3's, and if you weren't this type it would further explain why it feels odd to you. Type descriptions are often written stylized with certain enneagrams, and with ENFJ's it's 2 and 3. If you aren't those, it feels off.
4: Nope. Don't need to explain this one.
5: I doubt it. You are too externally focused.
6: This is possible, but I am not convinced. You seem to lack the perma-tension that 6's nearly always have, and in threads like this it always comes out.
7: I think this is your most likely enneagram. It's a rare matchup for an ENFJ, but it does happen. This would also very well explain your seeming connection with Ne.
8: I think this might be possible, but I see a lack of aggression and drive for protection (both self and others) that emerges with ENFJ's of this type.
9: Not a chance. You are not passive nor go with the flow enough.

ENFJ seven descriptions explain less than the ENFJ description a la carte. I don't believe a type seven is correct.

Eight is unlikely, although it has been noted by others that I instantly change around people I have affection for whom I perceive as weaker than me. I tend to give them additional attention and affection while simultaneously becoming much more protective of them.

But it's rare I meet people where I do this. And I'm not generally aggressive or reactive. So it could be in my tritype but it's unlikely a core type.

Motivations-wise I'm probably closer to a three than anything else. I'd say six is also a possibility, but the tension thing isn't there.

 

[Sil]

Was thinking more about the Fe-Te description.

I will consider group dynamics in situations where the decision is non-critcal (as in the outcome doesn't really matter). But in situations where the final decision or outcome is an important one, they don't factor in unless theyare specifically important to the outcome itself.

 

[Sil]

I'm looking at other types where Fe is not dominant, but I feel like the Fe-Te need to act on information is my preferred function.

 

[Sil]

Will look at esfj as well since that includes Si/Ne.

 

[existence]

[MENTION=22628]Sil[/MENTION]

You know the three types I've ever considered for you were ENTJ, ENFJ, ENFP.

Can you summarize (without quoting long descriptions) how you relate and don't relate to each?

- - - Updated - - -

Was thinking more about the Fe-Te description.

I will consider group dynamics in situations where the decision is non-critcal (as in the outcome doesn't really matter). But in situations where the final decision or outcome is an important one, they don't factor in unless theyare specifically important to the outcome itself.

What are such important outcomes?

 

[existence]

[MENTION=22628]Sil[/MENTION]

Also I think this got skipped:

But Te feels more like lukewarm water to me. I notice points when I use it, but I wouldn't say it feels like the dominant function in my day-to-day behavior. It feels more like something I fall back on when I need to be serious.

This is one significant statement. Is it specifically Te of ESTJs that's lukewarm to you or Te of ENTJs as well? When you are not serious what are you doing instead?

So, yeah, what is it when you don't need to be serious and don't need to fall back on Te?

 

[existence]

So, any luck?

 

[Sil]

Been busy. Be back in a couple weeks.

 

[existence]

Been busy. Be back in a couple weeks.

OK.