is it OK to be angry at God?

[SearchingforPeace]

Until then, I and God shall both patiently wait to see how you turn this bible verse around to prevent the OP from going to hell.

Haha..... did Peter deny Christ three times? Is he going to hell?

Heaven will be made up of sinners, because we all are imperfect and need Grace. We can not earn our way to heaven. No matter what we do, we will fall short, by ourselves. But Christ brings us to heaven through his love.

So, Riva, do you believe? If you do not, do you have desire to understand? Faith isn't intellectual, ultimately, though I know several ENTJs whose conversion to religion came from intellectual acceptance before a strong spiritual one.

You are not the Great Judge....he will determine whether to accept me or not....

 

[Lark]

Off topic trolling can be limited.....



Haha, so lacking in understanding. Since almost every old testament prophet argue and complained to God.....

Abraham arguing with God over Sodom was classic.... how many good people do you need to prevent God from destroying a very wicked city....100, 50, 20, a single family?

Blasphemy is a bit different. Your misunderstanding is understandable.

Yes, that is wise.

I loved reading the Erich Fromm deconstruction of old testament thinking in You Shall Be Gods, I dont really accept his psychologism or sociological reinterpretation of the prophetic books, ie that God is a conceptual misnomer for mind and cultural universality, but I like it because it illustrates well how abrahamic religions or religion per se are humanistic in origin and purpose. A good counter to all the facile hating on religion there is from apparently high minded humanistic positions.

Just mentioning sodom, it doesnt take a too close reading of the old testament to know that sodomy is synonymous with male rape, particularly the rape of boys. That was a pretty horrifying place and time which was being discussed, it wasnt an Oscar Wilde convention.

 

[Lark]

Haha..... did Peter deny Christ three times? Is he going to hell?

Heaven will be made up of sinners, because we all are imperfect and need Grace. We can not earn our way to heaven. No matter what we do, we will fall short, by ourselves. But Christ brings us to heaven through his love.

So, Riva, do you believe? If you do not, do you have desire to understand? Faith isn't intellectual, ultimately, though I know several ENTJs whose conversion to religion came from intellectual acceptance before a strong spiritual one.

You are not the Great Judge....he will determine whether to accept me or not....

I dont think its a matter of belief any more than I think its strictly a matter of actions, or acts as the old debate used to have it, I appreciate what happened in the reformation with the invention of the individual and individualisation of salvation and, I would say, the "othering" or "exteriorising" of salvation to "elsewhere" or "else time" even among those believing in a sleep unto resurrection deal but I dont believe it was all good.

The world to come was meant to occur in actual historical time, it was meant to be the work of the believing community, its not all meant to be pie in the sky.

So works will not earn you salvation, I dont believe that simply believing a thing, whether you're doing that intellectually or spiritually, will deliver either. Perhaps there will be no individual survival in death, perhaps there just wont be survival, there is a sequence in the movie Prince of Darkness which I thought was great for tapping those kinds of fears. God will determine that. God is good.

 

[Lark]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is simply unbelief. [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] is not an unbeliever.

I dont know, its got to be more precise than that, it is the one thing which Jesus himself said there was no forgiveness for in this life or the afterlife (which is part evidence for the existence of purgatory in RCC beliefs, there's more than that but as anyone will appreciate the word of Christ himself carries that extra bit of weight).

 

[gromit]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], I know many nnon-denominational Christians refer to themselves as "believers" with the Christian implied. Like "I feel like I can be myself so much more when I'm with my believer friends" or "it's hard to find other believers around here". And they mean people like them, a type of Christian. They wouldn't consider Jewish or Muslim or Hindus or other people of faith to be "believers" using that term, even though they would probably see them as believing in God. But the term carries an extra connotation in those circles, just like how every group has its jargon.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I dont know, its got to be more precise than that, it is the one thing which Jesus himself said there was no forgiveness for in this life or the afterlife (which is part evidence for the existence of purgatory in RCC beliefs, there's more than that but as anyone will appreciate the word of Christ himself carries that extra bit of weight).

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires that we first have profound and deep faith and more and than reject it with full knowledge of the truth. It is the ultimate lie, to feel deeply the divinity of Jesus Christ yet throw it away.

I suspect very few qualify for that standard.... and they deserve their punishment

 

[Coriolis]

I actually was looking at believers of all faiths, but didn't care for the forum's number one atheist jumping in and doing his games.....

We did have a Muslim response earlier.

Plus the "Christian" understanding of God can be varied. We have those who believe in the three in one Trinity and those whose Trinity is a separate Father and Son and Holy Spirit working together.... and other variations according to the various sects.

Until recently (as in within the lifetime of my father), many Protestantfaiths excluded Catholics as Christian, let alone the controversy when Romney was running and Huckabee tried to use religion as a tool to exclude him from Christianity even though he was a member of a church with Jesus Christ in the name....

The original discussion referenced two Jewish men.....

I thought it would be interesting to see the thoughts of believers in general, independent of sect or religion....

I would think so as well, and I appreciate both the clarification, and your open-mindedness toward those of other faiths. I can understand [MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION]'s point that the term "believer" might be sort of jargon for people in certain denominations and thus have a more specific meaning. It will almost necessarily not carry this meaning for others, though, so if "Christian believers" is meant, that should be specified in a broader audience.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I would think so as well, and I appreciate both the clarification, and your open-mindedness toward those of other faiths. I can understand [MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION]'s point that the term "believer" might be sort of jargon for people in certain denominations and thus have a more specific meaning. It will almost necessarily not carry this meaning for others, though, so if "Christian believers" is meant, that should be specified in a broader audience.

I was shocked soon after moving to Texas and a Lutheran friend told me that Baptists in Texas say "Christian " to mean Baptist only and that he was considered a nonbeliever growing up in Texas. I had another Catholic friend who experienced the same thing.

I want everyone to believe whatever they will....and let everyone else believe as they will. I do feel we can learn about divine truth by talking to others outside of our tradition because it can open our minds to broader understanding.

I brought this question up to a friend of mine last night. He had never considered it, but quickly adopted it as well. The full and complete relationship requires the full heart.... odd that neither of us had considered it before I listened to two Jewish men. I read the Bible over and over, but the specific issue never came up to my understanding until I listened to believers of another faith.

 

[Petals]

If I am not mistaken there are a few things God never forgives and one of them is what you've done.

You are mistaken in this. Here is a good synopsis of the text in question you are referring to:

“If you’re worried that you may be guilty of the unforgivable sin, you almost certainly are not,” Rick Cornish aptly points out in his book Five Minute Theologian. “Concern about committing it reveals the opposite attitude of what the sin is. Those who might be guilty wouldn’t care because they have no distress or remorse over the possibility.”
Jesus talked about the unforgivable sin in Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Let’s face it – that’s a very sobering teaching! But let’s put it into context. Note that Jesus didn’t address his comments to his disciples or a mere crowd. He was talking specifically to Pharisees who had personally witnessed his miracle of completely and instantly healing a blind and mute demon-possessed man (Matthew 12:22). Rather than acknowledging the obvious fact that Jesus was exercising divine powers, the Pharisees were so spiritually depraved that they attributed his power to Satan (v. 24).
“Their problem was not blind ignorance, but willful rejection,” pointed out Cornish. “That deliberate refusal to believe, even though knowing the truth, seems to be what Jesus called the unforgivable sin.”
As the Quest Study Bible puts it, “Jesus gave the solemn warning in these verses to people whose hard-heartedness placed them on the brink of disaster. Blasphemy against the Spirit evidently is not just a one-time offense; rather, it is an ongoing attitude of rebellion – a stubborn way of life that continually resists, rejects and insults the Holy Spirit. This is what makes it, in effect, an eternal sin (Mark 3:29). Blasphemy against the Spirit is not unforgivable because of something done unintentionally in the past, but because of something being done deliberately and unrelentingly in the present.”
So if you’re an authentic Christian, don’t spend time fretting over whether you have accidentally committed this unforgivable offense. “There is no biblical evidence that a genuine Christian can commit this (unforgivable) sin,” says the Apologetics Study Bible. “Fear that one has done so is probably a good sign that one hasn’t, for full-fledged apostasy is a defiant rejection of everything Christian and lacks the tender conscience that would be worried about such an action.”

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]:

It is definitely OK to be angry at or with God. And I believe it is much healthier to acknowledge such feelings, then to try and pretend they don't exist. Because, it's not like God isn't already aware of what you are thinking and feeling. Just be honest, no matter how raw it may be.

I think the key is to work on not just expressing "God, I am so angry with you because XYZ" but also to then take some quiet time to listen for a response. It may take awhile to hear or understand or believe, but something will come back.

God desires a relationship with us and if you consider it in that context... if you had a loved one who was angry with you, would you not want to know? And then by knowing would you not want to then communicate back to them somehow and have a chance to be heard? It's all give and take between us all.

God loves an honest heart, no matter how messy it may be. Anger itself is not sinful. God is angry many times in the bible. It is ok to be angry, for example, when you read a story of injustice in this world. The line that gets crossed is if we let the anger turn into hate.

I hope something here that I say is helpful to your struggle. You aren't alone. Give yourself the luxury of questioning and being messy.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Thanks so much for posting this. It was very helpful and meaningful.

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]:

It is definitely OK to be angry at or with God. And I believe it is much healthier to acknowledge such feelings, then to try and pretend they don't exist. Because, it's not like God isn't already aware of what you are thinking and feeling. Just be honest, no matter how raw it may be.

I think the key is to work on not just expressing "God, I am so angry with you because XYZ" but also to then take some quiet time to listen for a response. It may take awhile to hear or understand or believe, but something will come back.

God desires a relationship with us and if you consider it in that context... if you had a loved one who was angry with you, would you not want to know? And then by knowing would you not want to then communicate back to them somehow and have a chance to be heard? It's all give and take between us all.

God loves an honest heart, no matter how messy it may be. Anger itself is not sinful. God is angry many times in the bible. It is ok to be angry, for example, when you read a story of injustice in this world. The line that gets crossed is if we let the anger turn into hate.

I hope something here that I say is helpful to your struggle. You aren't alone. Give yourself the luxury of questioning and being messy.

Ah, messiness in a relationship....par for the course. Of course, being a lovely NFJ, I set impossible standards for myself, practice little self compassion and self forgiveness for my shortcomings, and barely admit I am human enough to make mistakes most days. Yet I don't consider myself to be a perfectionist, haha...e9 not e1.

For me the concept was helpful. I grew up wanting to submit to God's will, trying to humble myself to do his plan, and not complain about it. For all my reading of the Bible for 40 years, I ignored the many times prophets were angry at God and argued with him.

It was therapeutic to see that I can accept his will and still be angry about the circumstances of the trials....

Since posting this first post here, I took an hour to have an honest and angry prayer.....and it felt wonderful....

 

[Lark]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit requires that we first have profound and deep faith and more and than reject it with full knowledge of the truth. It is the ultimate lie, to feel deeply the divinity of Jesus Christ yet throw it away.

I suspect very few qualify for that standard.... and they deserve their punishment

Hmm, well, I do think that the gates to hell are locked from the inside and the prisoners hold the key.

 

[Beorn]

Emotions aren't inherently sinful. There is no justification for being angry with God (we are the clay and he is the potter after all) so it's not rational, but we're not always rational beings and it's better to be honest with yourself and with God about how and why you have these feelings and to work through them rather than ignore them or push them down. The biggest problem would be with this honesty spilling over into a human relationship in an unhealthy manner. As long as you avoid that then I think being honest about it is a good first step toward dealing with it.

 

[Beorn]

Hmm, well, I do think that the gates to hell are locked from the inside and the prisoners hold the key.

It's not a common view, but I actually think that's a fallen angel sin and not a reference to a human sin at all.

 

[Lark]

It's not a common view, but I actually think that's a fallen angel sin and not a reference to a human sin at all.

Yeah, fallen angels are in hell too.

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

It's not a common view, but I actually think that's a fallen angel sin and not a reference to a human sin at all.

It's one of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes! I think he's talking about unbelievers.

(He used to be an atheist.)

 

[Petals]

Thanks so much for posting this. It was very helpful and meaningful.



Ah, messiness in a relationship....par for the course. Of course, being a lovely NFJ, I set impossible standards for myself, practice little self compassion and self forgiveness for my shortcomings, and barely admit I am human enough to make mistakes most days. Yet I don't consider myself to be a perfectionist, haha...e9 not e1.

For me the concept was helpful. I grew up wanting to submit to God's will, trying to humble myself to do his plan, and not complain about it. For all my reading of the Bible for 40 years, I ignored the many times prophets were angry at God and argued with him.

It was therapeutic to see that I can accept his will and still be angry about the circumstances of the trials....

Since posting this first post here, I took an hour to have an honest and angry prayer.....and it felt wonderful....

I am really glad I was able to help.

I think one of the most healing things I have ever learned is being able to be messy with myself and others. It's very destructive to others and myself to try and achieve constant perfectionism. By this I mean... it isn't real. No one is perfect. It may make me feel invulnerable to "be perfect" but it's a false security.

It is a leap of faith, in a sense, to allow one's security to flow from God. I struggle with it on a daily basis and it will be a lifelong work in progress I am sure.

I am so glad to see you took an hour for yourself. I think it's really important to allow oneself to have time alone. (It's all too easy to allow and desire others' needs and demands ahead of one's own.)

Give yourself permission to fail at this task too. It's actually not on us to be perfect. God never said "my commandment is to be perfect" he said, "Love one another."

And as difficult as it may seem... loving ourselves falls under that heading too. (I know that for me I am my own worst enemy and the things I say to myself at times... if someone said that to anyone in front of me... I would not be silent.)

 

[Cellmold]

When is it not ok to be angry at god?

 

[Petals]

When is it not ok to be angry at god?

Hmm, I think there can be a danger if one is angry at God without being open to understanding God's will. By putting yourself in a place of authority over knowledge without any consideration or input that you are fallible.

I think this often occurs when bad things happen. There is an idea around "Well, if God is so good, then why did he let this happen to me." Which can easily morph into "God purposefully sat down and planned out my demise and then laughed while pushing the button that ruined my life."

The price we pay for having free will is that not everything is going to magically turn out ok. Which kind of sucks. But then being a robot with no choice would also suck. (Although we would probably be programmed to not know this.)

A turning point for me in my spirituality was learning that when awful things happen (and they do; they will) that God grieves with me about what happened and the fallen state of this world.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Hmm, I think there can be a danger if one is angry at God without being open to understanding God's will. By putting yourself in a place of authority over knowledge without any consideration or input that you are fallible.

I think this often occurs when bad things happen. There is an idea around "Well, if God is so good, then why did he let this happen to me." Which can easily morph into "God purposefully sat down and planned out my demise and then laughed while pushing the button that ruined my life."

The price we pay for having free will is that not everything is going to magically turn out ok. Which kind of sucks. But then being a robot with no choice would also suck. (Although we would probably be programmed to not know this.)

A turning point for me in my spirituality was learning that when awful things happen (and they do; they will) that God grieves with me about what happened and the fallen state of this world.

God is not responsible for all the bad things in the world or in our lives, though he is responsible for some (he does want us to learn and grow). No matter the cause of the trials in our lives, his love is there for us, to comfort us, to help us see as he sees.

Ultimately, we just need to align our will to his and endure whatever comes our way, though we definitely can get upset about the path.....

 

[Cellmold]

A turning point for me in my spirituality was learning that when awful things happen (and they do; they will) that God grieves with me about what happened and the fallen state of this world.

Isn't that very similar to the assumption you just described as dangerous? The only difference being you assumed he (she, it, what..who) was grieving with you, as opposed to ineffable ignorance.

In either case someone is assuming something about god without the possibility of being infallible.