[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[kirkland]

I've been going out with an ESTJ on a few dates now. How can I tell if she likes me romantically and see's us as being more than friends?

As a guy, I'm oblivious to any signals.

 

[SD45T-2]

I've been going out with an ESTJ on a few dates now. How can I tell if she likes me romantically and see's us as being more than friends?

As a guy, I'm oblivious to any signals.

Where's [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] when you need her?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION], will reply to you later today!

I've been going out with an ESTJ on a few dates now. How can I tell if she likes me romantically and see's us as being more than friends?

As a guy, I'm oblivious to any signals.

1) This sort of thing isn't type-related
2) If you're going out with her, then why would you think she isn't interested in you romantically?
3) Just ask her! ESTJs are fine with directness.

 

[kirkland]

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION], will reply to you later today!


1) This sort of thing isn't type-related
2) If you're going out with her, then why would you think she isn't interested in you romantically?
3) Just ask her! ESTJs are fine with directness.

Responding with the bold part, I thought ESTJ didn't like opening up and expressing their feelings? That is the impression I got with her. She says things along the lines "it was great hanging with you" and stuff, but I'm thinking you could say those things to a friend too.

 

[EJCC]

Responding with the bold part, I thought ESTJ didn't like opening up and expressing their feelings?

Just because they don't like it, doesn't mean they won't answer if you ask them. Most ESTJs I know of, myself included, have two primary modes: confronting an issue directly, or avoiding it altogether.

She says things along the lines "it was great hanging with you" and stuff, but I'm thinking you could say those things to a friend too.

So are you saying you AREN'T dating her? How do you know that those were dates?

If they were dates, then she at the very least was interested in you initially. If they weren't, then it's very possible that she's not interested in you.

TBH I really think you should talk to her about this. She's probably not going to tell you up front, because she doesn't like talking about feelings. But if you ask her, she'll answer.

Ok, I found this thread and only read the first 62 pages (which have been excellent, btw), and signed up just to ask. Hopefully, the answer I desire isn't on page 168 or something. ....

Anyway, I recently had a major wake up call (turned 45 then soon after had my 20th anniversary), which got me thinking way too much about stuff. A friend thought MBTI might help me out and I found out I am an INFJ, and wife is an ESTJ. I know, a tough romantic partnership, but it worked.

My wife was the absolutely most amazing person I had ever met, capable, energetic, fun, sexy, intelligent, etc. My friends were so jealous about how deep and loving our relationship was in comparison to their own. We were the couple that everyone thought were newlyweds even 10 years into our marriage. Looking back, it was basically INFJ relationship heaven.

Unfortunately, our marriage has been slowly dying for years as our relationship has gotten more distant, in spite of everything I could think of doing. She always had episodes where she suddenly withdrew and became cold, even before the wedding.

But as the years went on, I noticed a huge separation, she stopped wanting to engage with me on anything but a superficial level. Gone were the long talks about hopes and dreams. The physical closeness also gradually disappeared.

I excused all her coldness, so I devoted more to serving her and helping her, the more I gave, the worse things have become. I tried to get her involved in activities we could enjoy together, but she would suddenly quit those, too, for no apparent reason. The coldness seems to have even now turned to hostility, with no apparent reason, except that I am a loving and giving husband who wants a strong relationship with his wife.

So, with my mid-life self awakening, I tried to address the status of our marriage with her, and she just says everything is fine. She refuses to even talk about where we are and where we want to be. I have brought up how difficult it is for me to accept a superficial relationship, but I hit a wall.

She is still the amazing super woman I married in everything but our relationship. And she has no interest in addressing it, even when I told her I was unhappy enough to leave.

I chose to try to improve things rather than leave, at this point, but she still makes little effort to show any love or affection.

Oh, wonderful ESTJs, and you are wonderful, do you have any suggestions or ideas that might help?

My friends and family think that I should not even try, but I would rather have the amazing wife I married back than any other woman in the world. Yet, looking back, she has been gone for many years.

Any hope here? Any thoughts or guidance would be wonderful.

This is really tough -- I'm sorry you're in this position. [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] may know better than I, since she is married to an ESTJ and is probably closer to your age and stage of life than I am, but my first instinct is to think that your wife is in denial about how serious your relationship problems are. Either what you said to her went in one ear and out the other, or you may have fallen into the INFJ trap of THINKING you sound very clear and up-front, but actually being more abstract and indirect than is easy for someone like an ESTJ to notice right away. Regardless, I think something needs to happen that will make your wife realize the severity of the situation. An ultimatum? Couples counseling?

 

[violet_crown]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

So a personal goal for me this year is to be more consistent in my life. I've always been something of a starter-stopper, and while I usually get a fair amount done, day to day, "life maintenance" tasks have always been a struggle.

As an ESTJ, how would you recommend being more consistent and reliable in approaching things? Moreover, how do you make maintenance tasks enjoyable? What tools do you employ to keep such systems manageable? And finally, how do you keep these things going while still finding time to do higher-level, big picture thinking?

Yours truly,
Rexy

 

[Olm the Water King]

Are you a morning person?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

How do I become a stoic badass like many STJs without compromising my internal sense of authenticity and harmony?

 

[EJCC]

As an ESTJ, how would you recommend being more consistent and reliable in approaching things?

Best I could say is making sure that you're organized, from day to day, and seeing if you can "hack" your schedule as much as you can -- manipulating your natural tendencies so that they are conducive to getting more done. For example, I try to organize my schedule based on when I know I'm at my most and least productive. Doing the more difficult things that require more thinking when I'm at my best, which is between 9am and noon, and doing the easier stuff later. Relying on willpower for willpower's own sake has never worked for me, so I end up having to trick my brain instead. Especially if I've had a really long day and am just not in the mood.

Moreover, how do you make maintenance tasks enjoyable?

Sometimes I can't, and instead will motivate myself with how little time it will take: "it feels daunting, but how daunting can 5-10 minutes of work really be?" Most of the time, I listen to podcasts while I work. If the task actually takes brainpower, I listen to music while I work. If the task takes pretty much no brainpower, I watch TV or a movie while I do it. This works VERY well for me, in part because I tend to get antsy if I'm not doing something productive while I'm watching TV or a movie, so even if I don't love the maintenance task, it feels better to watch TV while doing that, than to watch TV while doing nothing at all.

This is probably not the case for you, but depending on the task, I might actually find busywork relaxing, at the end of a long day. So there's that too -- finding enjoyment in its simplicity and calmness.

What tools do you employ to keep such systems manageable?

I try to keep my systems relatively flexible, because the harsher they are, the more likely they are to fall apart. So a lot of my systems rely upon the realization of "oh, I should probably do this today or tomorrow" -- e.g. looking at the kitchen counter and realizing that it's dirty. So whenever I have some spare time, or need a break from a different task, I know that there's something I COULD be doing. So I look around and do whatever it is.

I mentioned earlier in this post that I'm motivated by how little time things will take. Some of that is based on a rule that I found online a while ago: if you get a work email requesting that you do a task that will take less than five minutes, do it immediately. I've started doing that with tasks at home, as well as at work. If I notice something that's dirty, and I could clean it quickly, then I deal with it right away.

And finally, how do you keep these things going while still finding time to do higher-level, big picture thinking?

Ironically, making lists tends to help me with that.

At the end of every workday, I make two lists: one for the rest of the day post-work, and one for the next workday. Each of those lists will include things to remember for later, e.g. "set aside time for X at some point this week". Sometimes I make a third list, right before bed, if I need to get stuff done in the morning before work. If I don't do anything like that, my days can be spent going scattershot from task to task, without having a sense of how anything connects to anything else. Making those lists, and seeing how everything connects in the long and short run, helps me put the busywork parts of my day in perspective.

 

[EJCC]

Are you a morning person?

Sort of, but mostly not. I have a difficult time getting up in the morning, and my body defaults to waking up at 10:30 or 11am if I don't set an alarm. However, it doesn't take me a long time to feel awake, once I'm out of bed, and I tend to be at my most productive in the morning.

How do I become a stoic badass like many STJs without compromising my internal sense of authenticity and harmony?

Make sure your stoic badassery is of the principled variety -- that'll appease the inferior-Fi bluebird in your heart.

 

[wolfy]

What is it like to be organised and all that?

 

[lyra]

How would ESTJs express their interest (particularly romantic) in other people?

I have an acquaintance who's tested as ESTJ. Honestly, at first I thought of him as an ENTP, due to his large array of (fleeting) interests, and like for debate (among some other things). But looking back, I may have been greatly blinded by my attraction to him (ie. confirmation bias... I admire and like ENTPs quite a bit, therefore he must be one?)
He reads mainly nonfiction, and is really concerned about being 'productive'. Things he does must fulfill some mean or have some purpose. He places a large emphasis on wealth/family for later in life. He makes decisions based on logic and the best possible outcome. He really enjoys being around people, and has told me how he likes hearing about others' "life stories" and getting to know them well. Seriously, this guy loves interacting with people.
I've shown him ESTJ descriptions from various sites, and he tells me they fit him pretty well... or at least fit the ideal person he wants to be well.

So assuming he really is an ESTJ, how would one [me] know if he liked them? I'll list some things that have already occurred (positive and negative) in our relationship, and hopefully one of you will kindly point out what these things all mean?
-Our mutual acquaintances have joked to me about his "obsession" with me. This was before we really got to know each other (and before he stated that those people misunderstood). I'm still not sure how these acquaintances came to this conclusion, but apparently he talked about me a lot, and expressed interest (sort of weird, but it's all fine since I find him attractive...).
-He "spills his life secrets"* to me... that is, he's openly talked about his feelings about various topics and life in general to me. I'm sort of like a shrink (totally what every girl wants to be!) in our relationship (one who just listens and doesn't really have any meaningful advice, I guess).
-Along with openly talking about things like his fears and the future, he's also talked about a girl he's interested in, and how he'd like to have a relationship sometime in the future. He's not identified the girl, but just expressed interest in getting to know a certain "her". Does that mean our relationship is to be permanently platonic?
-He tells me that I'm one of the few he's this honest with... Great, I guess?
-He's given me a nickname. I'm not sure if this is something he does with everyone?
-I'm the one who initiates conversation almost all of the time. Out of all the times we've talked, he's maybe talked to me first two or three times.
-He doesn't really ask me about myself. This is actually even more troubling, since he's stated how he loves getting to know people. It might be because I'm the type of person who asks about others and their ideas, rather than talking about myself... But still. I'm not sure if he's just that oblivious, or if he actually views me as merely a "shrink" figure, or worse.
-There are some cases where I'm not sure if he's hinting at something, or if I'm just reading too much into what he's saying. If anyone's actually that interested, PM me? Since these scenarios could reveal my identity?

What are your opinions on those things listed above? Are there any signs I should look out for, or anything I should do? Any opinion would be greatly appreciated.

*A quote; I overheard this from other people gossiping about our relationship...

 

[EH1004]

I came here to ask the same thing Lyra just did. Adding a few points regarding my situation.

-She told me some very personal details about herself. Later she said she doesn't know why she trusts me with those details.
-He doesn't really ask me about myself. This is actually even more troubling, since he's stated how he loves getting to know people. It might be because I'm the type of person who asks about others and their ideas, rather than talking about myself... But still. I'm not sure if he's just that oblivious, or if he actually views me as merely a "shrink" figure, or worse. Quote from Lyra's post. Exact same scenario.
-Takes awhile to respond to text, sometimes a full day, but she does always respond. Not sure if work or stress related where she just wants to be away from people or needs to focus? This actually makes me feel like I'm not important or she hates the "small talk" and is being polite?
-Would text me her schedule and whereabouts without me asking, such as "grabbing lunch now" or "heading home"
-I get the feeling she is not fully comfortable around me. I feel like she is nervous/uptight the last couple of times we were together.
-She went to Vegas two weeks ago and would send me pictures via text. Granted she also posts them to Instagram too, she knows I don't have an account.

 

[Cygnus]

How do I become a stoic badass like many STJs without compromising my internal sense of authenticity and harmony?

I thought you were.

 

[fetus]

What have you most commonly mistyped as, if at all?

 

[Frosty]

Do you get along well with other ESTJ's? Do you find it easier to recognize people of your own type?

 

[great_bay]

Are INTP's ESTJs archenemies?

 

[Riva]

Are INTP's ESTJs archenemies?

ESTJs might view INTPs as mental masterbators who spend too much time thinking about shit that doesn't matter; not as arch enemies.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I thought you were.

outwardly, on many occasions. It's a shield.

 

[EJCC]

What is it like to be organised and all that?

A little stressful, tbh. Stressful but also satisfying, when things work out as planned.

So assuming he really is an ESTJ, how would one [me] know if he liked them? I'll list some things that have already occurred (positive and negative) in our relationship, and hopefully one of you will kindly point out what these things all mean?
-Our mutual acquaintances have joked to me about his "obsession" with me. This was before we really got to know each other (and before he stated that those people misunderstood). I'm still not sure how these acquaintances came to this conclusion, but apparently he talked about me a lot, and expressed interest (sort of weird, but it's all fine since I find him attractive...).

Definitely sounds like he's interested.

-He "spills his life secrets"* to me... that is, he's openly talked about his feelings about various topics and life in general to me. I'm sort of like a shrink (totally what every girl wants to be!) in our relationship (one who just listens and doesn't really have any meaningful advice, I guess).

This means he either sees you as a valued and trusted friend, or likes you, or both. We don't tell those sorts of secrets to just anyone.

-Along with openly talking about things like his fears and the future, he's also talked about a girl he's interested in, and how he'd like to have a relationship sometime in the future. He's not identified the girl, but just expressed interest in getting to know a certain "her". Does that mean our relationship is to be permanently platonic?

Not sure if he's talking about you, or about someone else.

-He tells me that I'm one of the few he's this honest with... Great, I guess?

Also a sign of trust, friendship, and/or romantic affection.

-He's given me a nickname. I'm not sure if this is something he does with everyone?

No idea.

-I'm the one who initiates conversation almost all of the time. Out of all the times we've talked, he's maybe talked to me first two or three times.

This could indicate a number of things. Maybe he takes that aspect of things for granted and doesn't think it's a big deal. Maybe you make him nervous and he sort of avoids you unless you talk to him first.

-He doesn't really ask me about myself. This is actually even more troubling, since he's stated how he loves getting to know people. It might be because I'm the type of person who asks about others and their ideas, rather than talking about myself... But still. I'm not sure if he's just that oblivious, or if he actually views me as merely a "shrink" figure, or worse.

Hmm. He might see you as a shrink figure. I feel like if he's "obsessed" with you, he'd want to talk to you about you. On the other hand, I don't know how mature he is, so he could just be that oblivious.

-There are some cases where I'm not sure if he's hinting at something, or if I'm just reading too much into what he's saying.

Generally when someone has to ask themselves that question about an ESTJ, the answer is "you're reading too much into what they're saying". ESTJs are usually very straightforward and bad at subtlety.

What are your opinions on those things listed above? Are there any signs I should look out for, or anything I should do? Any opinion would be greatly appreciated.

To be honest I have little to no idea. He could like you, he could see you as just a very close friend. It's possible that he used to have a crush on you and then it faded away. It's hard to know.

I came here to ask the same thing Lyra just did. Adding a few points regarding my situation.

-She told me some very personal details about herself. Later she said she doesn't know why she trusts me with those details.

See my comment to Lyra.

-He doesn't really ask me about myself. This is actually even more troubling, since he's stated how he loves getting to know people. It might be because I'm the type of person who asks about others and their ideas, rather than talking about myself... But still. I'm not sure if he's just that oblivious, or if he actually views me as merely a "shrink" figure, or worse. Quote from Lyra's post. Exact same scenario.

Also see my comment to Lyra.

-Takes awhile to respond to text, sometimes a full day, but she does always respond. Not sure if work or stress related where she just wants to be away from people or needs to focus? This actually makes me feel like I'm not important or she hates the "small talk" and is being polite?

I suspect from this that she hates small talk -- especially small talk via text. I definitely do, because I've always viewed pleasantries like "hey" and "what's up" to be society-imposed necessities, while texting is a way to move past those necessities and just say "when are we meeting up for dinner?" or "saw this video and thought of you". Not to mention, a particular style of semi-flirtatious-but-mostly-intrusive texting can creep me out, even if it's coming from someone I'm interested in.

-Would text me her schedule and whereabouts without me asking, such as "grabbing lunch now" or "heading home"

That's just ESTJs being on top of things. Means pretty much nothing in terms of whether an ESTJ likes someone or not.

-I get the feeling she is not fully comfortable around me. I feel like she is nervous/uptight the last couple of times we were together.

Either she likes you, or she knows that you like her and that lack of reciprocity makes her uncomfortable.

-She went to Vegas two weeks ago and would send me pictures via text. Granted she also posts them to Instagram too, she knows I don't have an account.

Hard to know.

Question for both of you: Why not just ask them out, and see what happens? While I'm not 100% sure whether your respective ESTJs are interested in you, it's a good sign that they're keeping you around. When I get the feeling that someone is interested in me, and I have no interest in them, I tend to do the very mature and adult thing and avoid them altogether.

Are INTP's ESTJs archenemies?

ESTJs might view INTPs as mental masterbators who spend too much time thinking about shit that doesn't matter; not as arch enemies.

Yeah, I don't know if ESTJs see INTPs as competitors. If anyone is an ESTJ's archenemy, it's someone who operates similarly to them, but in a way that bothers them. So, someone on their radar who they see as a threat. In which case I'd say, an ESTJ's archenemy would probably be any other ExxJ. ENTJs, ENFJs, and other ESTJs come to mind especially.