Wonder Woman 2017 (+ expectations for female directors?)

[Totenkindly]

Not sure if this discussion will expand into a broader discussion of female directors in general and how they're viewed in the industry / expectations and such.

The gist is Michelle MacLaren was brought on in November 2014 to direct this (which was rather a cool idea -- MacLaren has done some really nice TV work on noteworthy shows), but she only lasted six months before leaving this month over "creative differences."

Of course, this article suggests maybe the creative differences was understandable:
Wonder Woman and her pet tiger — The Beat

The official reason for her leaving is ‘creative differences,’ and that seems legit according to the scuttlebutt that has reached me. MacLaren and Warner Bros couldn’t agree on anything – including what time period to set the movie. More than that, MacLaren had some very particular visions for the film, visions that maybe would have alienated fandom. Although perhaps Diana having a tiger sidekick/pet she could talk with would have appealed to people more than I expect.

As of now it seems like Wonder Woman is still on for a 2017 release – which means they need to get a director in there soon. I don’t even know if any of the stuff they developed with MacLaren, storywise, will last. It’s quite possible that whoever comes on next will start from scratch – or will basically take orders from Zack Snyder, who could be shaping up to be the driving creative force behind the DC Movieverse.

So basically with a tight-for-a-blockbuster two years out schedule, they STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH WONDER WOMAN. Talking raccoons—no problem. A test pilot who gets a glowing green mask—think of the possibilities. A guy who shrinks down to the size of an ant—the kids will love it. A guy who got frightened by a bat in a cave—worldwide box office records. Woman who fights evil….hm…boy…jeez, that’s a tough one.

Aside from groaning over the idea of Zack Synder having any control over the content of the movie (he's decent at producing visual sequences but kind of sucks at the underpinnings of story + characterization and needs others to do the heavy lifting), it sounds like they don't know what they're doing at Warner with DC properties, unlike Disney/Marvel, and instead of getting things together they're just trying to jump on the movie franchise bandwagon that Marvel cranked up.

Still, if the above is true, I think MacLaren was a little tone-deaf on the character. But what kinds of expectations do companies have for their female directors? What female directors of note / well-known reputation have there been? I don't have time to wrack my brain right now over it, but...

MacLaren's done good TV stuff (and probably there are some other decent TV female directors)

- Penny Marshall (although her stuff was 80's and 90's; she did great comedy / dramedy)

- Kim Peirce (Boys Don't Cry, Carrie remake -- although her remake wasn't really that spectacular, it certainly did not improve the old movie even if Julianne Moore brought some substance to the mother role)

 

[Luke O]

Not sure if this discussion will expand into a broader discussion of female directors in general and how they're viewed in the industry / expectations and such.

The gist is Michelle MacLaren was brought on in November 2014 to direct this (which was rather a cool idea -- MacLaren has done some really nice TV work on noteworthy shows), but she only lasted six months before leaving this month over "creative differences."

Of course, this article suggests maybe the creative differences was understandable:
Wonder Woman and her pet tiger — The Beat



Aside from groaning over the idea of Zack Synder having any control over the content of the movie (he's decent at producing visual sequences but kind of sucks at the underpinnings of story + characterization and needs others to do the heavy lifting), it sounds like they don't know what they're doing at Warner with DC properties, unlike Disney/Marvel, and instead of getting things together they're just trying to jump on the movie franchise bandwagon that Marvel cranked up.

Still, if the above is true, I think MacLaren was a little tone-deaf on the character. But what kinds of expectations do companies have for their female directors? What female directors of note / well-known reputation have there been? I don't have time to wrack my brain right now over it, but...

MacLaren's done good TV stuff (and probably there are some other decent TV female directors)

- Penny Marshall (although her stuff was 80's and 90's; she did great comedy / dramedy)

- Kim Peirce (Boys Don't Cry, Carrie remake -- although her remake wasn't really that spectacular, it certainly did not improve the old movie even if Julianne Moore brought some substance to the mother role)

Why does DC have to be so... conservative over this matter? A Wonder Woman movie could be fantastic, more interesting than the sausagefest (but behind codpieces of course) we have to deal with. Or should they leave the more progressive stuff to Marvel?

 

[Totenkindly]

Why does DC have to be so... conservative over this matter? A Wonder Woman movie could be fantastic, more interesting than the sausagefest (but behind codpieces of course) we have to deal with. Or should they leave the more progressive stuff to Marvel?

I honestly don't know.

They and the movie companies they worked with kind of had the lock on superhero movies for years (between Superman and Batman) but kept dropping the ball, and now they're just trying to emulate what Marvel has done, with partial success.

I'd have to go back and think through early DC stuff, but my gut is that Marvel has always been more progressive in general as far as women characters go, from an earlier time forwards. (For some reason, Ms. Marvel and Marvel Girl / Phoenix are leaping out at me... true intergalactic heroes that were allowed to actually be real people, have lives, make bad choices, have bad things happen and then recover, etc.)

I remember covers of "Justice League" in the 90's making fun of the sausagefests by posing male characters like women characters and vice versa.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hmm. Update on this, they have a new director.

'Wonder Woman' Movie Finds a New Director (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter

Patty Jenkins, who at one point was to direct Thor 2 for rival Marvel Studios, has closed a deal to helm Warner Bros.' female superhero movie. Warners moved at lightning speed to sew up another director after parting ways Monday with Michelle MacLaren, the experienced TV director and producer who was to have made her feature directorial debut with Wonder Woman. Creative differences were cited as the reasons for MacLaren's departure.

...Jenkins is also another experienced TV filmmaker, although she actually got her start in movies. Her debut film was Monster, the indie that won Charlize Theron a best acting Oscar. But showing how hard the film world can be for female directors, Jenkins has had a tough time finding a follow-up feature. She did, however, make a mark in TV, including directing the pilot for AMC’s acclaimed crime drama The Killing.

 

[Totenkindly]

As far as other female directors of note:

Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker, Strange Days)
Vicky Jenson (co-director of Shrek)
Sofia Coppola (Lost in Translation)

There are others I am sure, but they don't seem to have nearly the name recognition in the mainstream.
(Also, my knowledge of non-American directors is pretty lame. Maybe female directors have more clout overseas.)

 

[Totenkindly]

Anyway, Wonder Woman releases in early June (less than a month).

it was disconcerting to see them hit a strong marketing campaign over the winter and then... nothing. Finally in May there looks to have been a new trailer released and so forth, but not really a ton of marketing about it from what I could see until very recently. The trailer was okay -- I just wasn't really able to formulate a good sense of the movie's quality from it. Also, after Suicide Squad last year... guessing movie quality from trailers is quite the gamble.

Oddly enough, the first comments about it seem positive but we won't really know until the last week or so before release:
‘Wonder Woman’ First Reviews: What Are The Critics Saying?

 

[The Cat]

Personally, I've never been able to get into DC movies, but they do tv shows so well, imo plus you get more provided the network doesn't cancel it...like Constantine who shall remain nameless... sorry if this is off topic, I dont mean to derail, but I've always prefered dc shows over the movies...

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I'm glad she got a film since she's probably second only to Bats and Supes in her standing as a DC icon, but I don't hold high hopes for anything in the DC cinematic universe at the moment. Seems like it's all been poorly planned and jumbled together to capitalize on the popularity of superheroes in film without really focusing on continuity or actual character development. I think they should've followed in the tradition of the Nolan Batman trilogy and gone for a touch of realism to distinguish their universe from the more fantastical Marvel CU instead of trying to copy the MCU in format.

Every major franchise doesn't need to become like a different franchise; it reminds me of Star Trek becoming Star Wars meets the Fast and the Furious in the Abramsverse reboots. There's something to be said for making something stand apart from the rest.

 

[Reborn Relic]

I feel like there's too little information here to say anything of import. What the creative differences were, for instance, would be useful to know.

Though, I've always thought Wonder Woman to be somewhat bland. It's possible to fix in the movies, but who knows if they'll do it?

 

[Totenkindly]

Every major franchise doesn't need to become like a different franchise; it reminds me of Star Trek becoming Star Wars meets the Fast and the Furious in the Abramsverse reboots. There's something to be said for making something stand apart from the rest.

Yeah, I wasn't keen on that -- the movie wasn't bad, it's just merely forgettable -- but hell, they hired Justin Lin to direct it so it's pretty much what you have said.

Also, when you have a franchise, you're tempted to make status quo movies -- i.e., like an old TV episode, every movie has to leave everything back where it started so you don't create problems for the next installment.

----

I think the biggest issue with Wonder Woman is that her power scales off chart, so her fighting humans seems to have less risk for her and it's not clear what the movie is about. Now apparently it looks like there is more time spent on the Amazon Island in the early parts of the movie at least. But I'm really not sure what her goal is in this movie besides kicking Nazi butt. This is contributing to the blandness because she is not being shaped by the forces she fights against, really, she seems unchanging.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah, I wasn't keen on that -- the movie wasn't bad, it's just merely forgettable -- but hell, they hired Justin Lin to direct it so it's pretty much what you have said.

Also, when you have a franchise, you're tempted to make status quo movies -- i.e., like an old TV episode, every movie has to leave everything back where it started so you don't create problems for the next installment.

----

I think the biggest issue with Wonder Woman is that her power scales off chart, so her fighting humans seems to have less risk for her and it's not clear what the movie is about. Now apparently it looks like there is more time spent on the Amazon Island in the early parts of the movie at least. But I'm really not sure what her goal is in this movie besides kicking Nazi butt. This is contributing to the blandness because she is not being shaped by the forces she fights against, really, she seems unchanging.

Do you think there's a tendency to make female heroes too flawless and invulnerable these days out of fear of reprisal from critics and fans? Not to say that hasn't been the case with male heroes in the past, but it seems the current trend is the opposite with male heroes--make them flawed, i.e. emo Superman. Just seems like with the move to make more dynamic male heroes lately, it might be nice to see more of that with female characters as well.

 

[Totenkindly]

Do you think there's a tendency to make female heroes too flawless and invulnerable these days out of fear of reprisal from critics and fans?

I never really noticed that. The best female heroes have always had a strong side and a vulnerable side. (Quintessential female hero -- Ripley, she's tough and capable even when not trained, but also possesses strong maternal instincts. And Sarah Connor in T2 was shown as steely tough but that was a deficiency where she was become a human terminator and needed to regain her humanity.)

I know those were 20-30 years ago. But even some of the more modern ones... Salt, she's far more interesting because of her relationship with her husband in that movie (her vulnerability), not necessarily in her strong physical capabilities and smarts. Arwen in LotR was also strong and capable, yet stunningly vulnerable. Black Widow was more interesting in how she was the moral/relational backbone of Civil War... she was the most reasonable and open one who was willing to adjust to situations and try to salvage relationships, not fight over impersonal values and judgments.

But maybe I am not tuned in because I don't care much about zeitgeist, I'm just focused on good writing with vulnerable strong characters of either gender in touch with their humanity.

Back to Wonder Woman -- I am not sure where her "weak" side is. I know what she values (I think?) and what she's good at, but until I also understand what she's afraid of and what hurts her, there's a part of her I can't grasp as a character.

(I think Marvel in generally is far better at that, without weakening a character. for example, the GotG2 movie was really good at this... you get a really decent grasp of where the character is vulnerable -- Nebula, Star-Lord, Rocket, Yondu, Drax -- but you don't ever feel they are weak or "emo". And this is even with their "humor" brand.)

Not to say that hasn't been the case with male heroes in the past, but it seems the current trend is the opposite with male heroes--make them flawed, i.e. emo Superman. Just seems like with the move to make more dynamic male heroes lately, it might be nice to see more of that with female characters as well.

I have trouble judging anything by DC because generally their movies suck.

meanwhile We started getting dark/flawed superheroes in the mid 80's, so I can't say it is a recent shift... although there they were just morally flawed/human. I think they might have tried to make males more vulnerable emotionally, I guess.

I don't really understand the difficulty in any of this. Just make real people. It's like people are trying to hard or overthinking. It would be nice too if audiences stopped judging a character as representative of the writers' or studio's view of gender. There are all types of people in the world. Even the sociopolitical commentary has become too nitpicky/zealous.

 

[Reborn Relic]

Yeah, I wasn't keen on that -- the movie wasn't bad, it's just merely forgettable -- but hell, they hired Justin Lin to direct it so it's pretty much what you have said.

Also, when you have a franchise, you're tempted to make status quo movies -- i.e., like an old TV episode, every movie has to leave everything back where it started so you don't create problems for the next installment.

----

I think the biggest issue with Wonder Woman is that her power scales off chart, so her fighting humans seems to have less risk for her and it's not clear what the movie is about. Now apparently it looks like there is more time spent on the Amazon Island in the early parts of the movie at least. But I'm really not sure what her goal is in this movie besides kicking Nazi butt. This is contributing to the blandness because she is not being shaped by the forces she fights against, really, she seems unchanging.

If I were to guess, trying to end the war would be part of it. Though I think the main struggle, based on the movie trailer where she's hiding her identity, might be about whether she decides to fight at all. Similar to Superman's struggle in Man of Steel but also very different, because she's holding back more because she's evaluating whether it's worth it. Or something.

Though, it'd be interesting, especially given what Wonder Woman's supposed to be about (conquer your enemies with love and so on) if there was some conflict regarding the purpose/way she should direct her fighting, whether being on the battle lines really matters, and so on. Maybe she gets pissed at the total war strategy in WWII and tries to do things differently. Maybe she tries to convert Nazis or similar. Who knows?

 

[Totenkindly]

If I were to guess, trying to end the war would be part of it. Though I think the main struggle, based on the movie trailer where she's hiding her identity, might be about whether she decides to fight at all. Similar to Superman's struggle in Man of Steel but also very different, because she's holding back more because she's evaluating whether it's worth it. Or something.

Though, it'd be interesting, especially given what Wonder Woman's supposed to be about (conquer your enemies with love and so on) if there was some conflict regarding the purpose/way she should direct her fighting, whether being on the battle lines really matters, and so on. Maybe she gets pissed at the total war strategy in WWII and tries to do things differently. Maybe she tries to convert Nazis or similar. Who knows?

Maybe all the time spend early on the Isle will show a deficiency within the Amazon community tied in some way to their withdrawal from the world, and Diana choosing to reenter the world (and thus being rejected by her people -- I think there is a clip about how if she leaves she cannot return?) is actually an act of reinvolvement in the world that will spell redemption not just for humanity but for the Amazons as well, in some way... reminding them of who they are, recapturing their spirit, etc.

I'm hoping it is something of that degree of depth....

 

[highlander]

Amazing movie. Loved it.

 

[Riva]

Watched it, loved it, thanked it for saving the DC film industry.

The lead actress looks so beautiful. Actor looked good too, however the Gal Gadot looked so good, Chris Pine looked normal next to her .

 

[highlander]

It has the perfect ingredients for movies that I like
- Lots of action
- A love story
- Fiction/fantasy with members who turn out to be heroes
- Someone who has super-powers but doesn't know it at first and goes on to defeat evil
- The underdog who goes on to win/conquer
- A beautiful woman in a lead role (actually there were several beautiful women)
- Incredible cinematography and visual effects
- Great dramatic/big music

I also like the actors a lot. Chris Pine and Connie Nielsen (from Braveheart) are a couple examples.

 

[Totenkindly]

I just finished watching this in 3D.

Thank you Patty Jenkins for finally making a moving and freaking INSPIRING DC superhero movie. I was in tears a few times and walked out feeling good for once...after an honest view of the world and motivated to engage.

It was about time.

 

[Totenkindly]

Side note: Connie Nielsen was not in Braveheart. You are probably thinking of her as Commodus' sister in Gladiator.

 

[highlander]

Side note: Connie Nielsen was not in Braveheart. You are probably thinking of her as Commodus' sister in Gladiator.

Oh yeah, I meant to say Gladiator not Braveheart