[INTJ] Is this an INTJ thing?

[birdseye]

Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.

 

[yeghor]

Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.

He's an ENTP...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I do this to put others' reasoning abilities to the test sometimes, to see if they are confident if I were to manipulate the situation (I think it is an Nx-dom thing, possibly Ti dom as well) just for fun. Usually however, I honestly admit fault, but if the other person decides to bask in one of these rare opportunities, then I completely shut them down with tactics such as this and worse. Arguing is a game, to us at least, and we like to win games.

 

[yeghor]

I do this to put others' reasoning abilities to the test sometimes, to see if they are confident if I were to manipulate the situation (I think it is an Nx-dom thing, possibly Ti dom as well) just for fun. Usually however, I honestly admit fault, but if the other person decides to bask in one of these rare opportunities, then I completely shut them down with tactics such as this and worse. Arguing is a game, to us at least, and we like to win games.

Perhaps its your ENTP shadow manifesting out of anger\stress of defeat...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Perhaps its your ENTP shadow manifesting out of anger\stress of defeat...

Could be, as my first instinct is to admit that I am wrong (though excessively bitterly, calling a Te user wrong is like telling us that we are lying or fraudulent, for we actually believe our knowledge is universal truth). I do see arguments as a bit of a game though, but I usually play them civilly and justly.

 

[yeghor]

Could be, as my first instinct is to admit that I am wrong (though excessively bitterly, calling a Te user wrong is like telling us that we are lying or fraudulent, for we actually believe our knowledge is universal truth). I do see arguments as a bit of a game though, but I usually play them civilly and justly.

An ENTP friend of mine acts the way OP described not out of anger but for the fun of it...for the thrill of being successful in getting away with it...

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

An ENTP friend of mine acts the way OP described not out of anger but for the fun of it...for the thrill of being successful in getting away with it...

Yeah, that's a different stance. I argue to be proven right, not to win, it just so happens that being proven right will be synonymous with winning an argument. I often argue simply to synthesize my information as well, as that is how we digest information (through explaining it and applying it in a certain format that appeals to others).

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

ENTP 3

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

ENTP 3

Easily plausible, though my natural state is still bounded by Te and Ni. (If I were an ENTP, I'd be an ENTP 4.)

 

[Werebudgie]

I often argue simply to synthesize my information as well, as that is how we digest information (through explaining it and applying it in a certain format that appeals to others

This part seems pretty clearly Ni-dom + Je-aux to me.

Re the OP: [MENTION=21071]birdseye[/MENTION], there's something in what you wrote that - if your friend is INTJ, which I don't know one way or another so far from the discussion - anyway, assuming he's INTJ and you're correctly typed as INTP, there might possibly be a parallel to an experience that my INFP has with me (INFJ) and how Ni shows up. I mention this possible parallel because parallel dynamics between INxPs and INxJs have emerged in at least one other discussion I've had here. I'm not at all sure if there's a parallel here, but just in case there might be, some thoughts behind the spoiler:

My Ni perspective-shifting moves drive my INFP crazy. I mean, seriously, she feels it's evasive and changing the topic etc etc when I do that perspective shift thing in response to something she asserts. So for example, this past weekend, she made a statement and asked me if I could give her an argument showing that what she said wasn't true. My first/immediate response was to move outside the parameters of what she laid out and look at her statement from a different perspective entirely. She didn't like that at all. She said I was trying to change the topic and was being evasive. I said that her statement was so limited in its parameters that it left no room for anything outside of itself. For me, it's like my first instinct in situations like that is to note and then move outside the set parameters and look at the topic from some other perspective(s). And again, she finds that maddening and from that space of finding it maddening, judges it pretty harshly as a problematic way to move, a process she feels is almost designed to confuse others and blur things up.

I'm slowly learning that the only way I can usefully interact with her in these circumstances is to accept her parameters for the purpose of the interaction, and try to simply understand what she's saying inside of those parameters, while staying clear in myself that she won't move outside of them so in myself I have to understand the discussion as severely limited because it doesn't allow for the kind of perspective shifting that I instinctively want to do. This is probably Ni+Fe at the very least and I don't know what Ni+Te would do with such a situation.

Thing is, I don't necessarily see a parallel between the INFP/INFJ dynamic I described and how you describe your experience with your friend. And too, I don't know if or how such a dynamic might translate to INTP and INTJ - especially since T orientation is switched and in different locations and that renders the comparison conceptually confusing to me to the point of near meaninglessness.

However. I still feel it worth it to post this just in case. So I will say this: if by chance there is in fact some kind of parallel here and there is some sort of INxP/INxJ confusion thing happening here (specifically if anything he's doing is due to Ni perspective shifting that is coming up against something in you that isn't ok with those kinds of moves), your experience and description of your friend's actions cannot be taken as straight-up description by any stretch of the imagination. Instead, it will be a description based on your specific take on and location in the experience in a particular dynamic, and it will cast an understandably negative light on what your friend is doing. It's like how my INFP would describe what I do as changing the topic and evasive .... while I would describe what she does as limiting the topic to the point of creating truisms for herself.

I really have no idea if any of this is relevant, though.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.

Your description makes me laugh because I do this with one of my INTP friends. Honestly, I think it's why we have remained friends so long. He always seemed intrigued and amused by my BS, like it was fascinating to watch someone bend and distort the truth in order to win an argument. I would always stand my ground, but knowing I was on thin ice. Sometimes he would manage to completely shut down my argument, which was immensely fun to me. Most people cant do that. It was like mental sparring.

 

[freeeekyyy]

The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.

 

[codeownage]

The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.

Thumbs up! "They think enough of you to bother" brilliantly said.
I will execute battle in every format, and if it's too easy; I play devil's advocate, and re-argue. If I don't respect you or feel you are on my level... I won't even waste the effort!

Well Played good sir!

 

[INTP]

My INTJ friend does this pretty much all the time with me when he isnt doing it(or just playing devils advocate and argue with people) on the internet with someone else.

The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.

But what if this "Te" is trying to knock down everything that goes against Ni delusions, regardless of what ever. And always finding some totally irrelevant point that to him supposedly proves something, even tho there isnt any logical argument for it and any logical arguments against it is countered with something irrelevant?

You know stuff like:

INTJ: omg lol this crossfit shit is stupid, look how this guy does pullups *insert video*. Also its dangerous because they use too heavy weigths and push their limits too much.
INTP: Not all crossfitters do pullups like that, its just some troll video that someone like you made to make crossfit look bad.. Also even if some people do it like that, its still pretty good because he does those for 10 minutes and then does push ups for 10 mins and 10 mins of those silly pull ups again.. Also the reason why its so dangerous is because people dont know what they are doing due to crappy coaches *insert article on how easy it is to get coaching degree on crossfit, how it effects on whether people crossfit safely or not and which shows common mistakes that people do*
INTJ: *inserts an article that shows how many injuries crossfit causes* look its dangerous to do crossfit, they push their limits too much.. Also it doesent make you stronger, because it uses small muscles that help you lift or something.
INTP: I already said why its dangerous for some, it not any more dangerous than normal weight lifting if you do it properly. You can get good results from it, even navy seals, firefighters etc use it because it gives good overall fitness, not just something to grow big biceps with..
INTJ: *inserts a video of some regular gym guy laughing at crossfitters and showing some stupid moves that apparently define crossfit* Look how good shape this guy is, he would easily beat crossfitters on weight lifting or anything on gym, he even does proper pull ups look *inserts a timestamp on the video*
INTP: disproves everything and explains that in real world we do use those small muscles and that they are good to train too or you end up as some hulk who can lift 500kg, but cant walk small strairs up without being exhausted.
(more people join me to laugh at him and disprove everything he says for several hours)
And i keep doing this for few days, because he tries to disprove me with some stupid shit like people getting hurt for not doing it right or something like that. Then it stops for some days and still at times get videos at time to time that troll crossfitters and are supposedly some proofs of crossfit being the shitties sport on earth, and i just reply with something like that i would like to see him doing the warm up of the girls on the video..

But why does these things happen? Well usually its him reading reddit and apparently people on reddit laugh at crossfitters because so many people cant do it correctly(because of the reason i mentioned earlier). Dat Te . And no, its not about lack of intelligence, this guy has IQ of 140+, but apparently it doesent help much if you use NiTe and spend too much time on reddit..

 

[Opal]

My INTJ friend does this pretty much all the time with me when he isnt doing it(or just playing devils advocate and argue with people) on the internet with someone else.



But what if this "Te" is trying to knock down everything that goes against Ni delusions, regardless of what ever. And always finding some totally irrelevant point that to him supposedly proves something, even tho there isnt any logical argument for it and any logical arguments against it is countered with something irrelevant?

You know stuff like:

INTJ: omg lol this crossfit shit is stupid, look how this guy does pullups *insert video*. Also its dangerous because they use too heavy weigths and push their limits too much.
INTP: Not all crossfitters do pullups like that, its just some troll video that someone like you made to make crossfit look bad.. Also even if some people do it like that, its still pretty good because he does those for 10 minutes and then does push ups for 10 mins and 10 mins of those silly pull ups again.. Also the reason why its so dangerous is because people dont know what they are doing due to crappy coaches *insert article on how easy it is to get coaching degree on crossfit, how it effects on whether people crossfit safely or not and which shows common mistakes that people do*
INTJ: *inserts an article that shows how many injuries crossfit causes* look its dangerous to do crossfit, they push their limits too much.. Also it doesent make you stronger, because it uses small muscles that help you lift or something.
INTP: I already said why its dangerous for some, it not any more dangerous than normal weight lifting if you do it properly. You can get good results from it, even navy seals, firefighters etc use it because it gives good overall fitness, not just something to grow big biceps with..
INTJ: *inserts a video of some regular gym guy laughing at crossfitters and showing some stupid moves that apparently define crossfit* Look how good shape this guy is, he would easily beat crossfitters on weight lifting or anything on gym, he even does proper pull ups look *inserts a timestamp on the video*
INTP: disproves everything and explains that in real world we do use those small muscles and that they are good to train too or you end up as some hulk who can lift 500kg, but cant walk small strairs up without being exhausted.
(more people join me to laugh at him and disprove everything he says for several hours)
And i keep doing this for few days, because he tries to disprove me with some stupid shit like people getting hurt for not doing it right or something like that. Then it stops for some days and still at times get videos at time to time that troll crossfitters and are supposedly some proofs of crossfit being the shitties sport on earth, and i just reply with something like that i would like to see him doing the warm up of the girls on the video..

But why does these things happen? Well usually its him reading reddit and apparently people on reddit laugh at crossfitters because so many people cant do it correctly(because of the reason i mentioned earlier). Dat Te . And no, its not about lack of intelligence, this guy has IQ of 140+, but apparently it doesent help much if you use NiTe and spend too much time on reddit..

Your INTJ friend has an IQ >140 and argues points founded on imbecilic logic and supported by unverified evidence?

The appropriate approach to that argument is "I was reading a discussion board where people challenged the efficacy of crossfit programs: <link> thoughts?"

 

[INTP]

Your INTJ friend has an IQ >140 and argues points founded on imbecilic logic and supported by unverified evidence?

The appropriate approach to that argument is "really? I was reading a discussion board where people challenged the efficacy of crossfit programs: <link>http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/ thoughts?"

Its not imbecilic logic(and IQ was 141 or 143 on mensa test) because so many people on reddit thinks that way and on reddit only good comments get up-voted and stupid shit gets down-voted, its Te logic! Also there is loads of data that crossfit is dangerous and the reason for this is that because people push their limits too much and everyone who got up-voted on reddit says that its the point of crossfit and thus in NiTe-world something that defines crossfit.

And no, that approach doesent work. I already pulled that card, but apparently because triathlon + regular gym is better than crossfit, crossfit is the shittiest because its dangerous.. And no showing that gym being equally dangerous if you dont know what you are doing didnt help either. Someone once told me that INTJs can be a bit stubborn or something like that..

 

[Opal]

Its not imbecilic logic(and IQ was 141 or 143 on mensa test) because so many people on reddit thinks that way and on reddit only good comments get up-voted and stupid shit gets down-voted, its Te logic! Also there is loads of data that crossfit is dangerous and the reason for this is that because people push their limits too much and everyone who got up-voted on reddit says that its the point of crossfit and thus in NiTe-world something that defines crossfit.

And no, that approach doesent work. I already pulled that card, but apparently because triathlon + regular gym is better than crossfit, crossfit is the shittiest because its dangerous.. And no showing that gym being equally dangerous if you dont know what you are doing didnt help either. Someone once told me that INTJs can be a bit stubborn or something like that..

I guess less imbecilic than dependent. I would expect an INTJ to research the issue and develop an informed opinion (based on the results of studies) before arguing one side or another. To be fair, though, I considered myself an INTJ and am now weighing ISFP, so what do I know?

 

[Rambling]

I'd have argued like that twenty years ago if I had time to spare and I'd be doing it purely to explore the mental mapping and innards of the person I was debating with. It's a game, as others have said.

I try to be more friendly and less argumentative now...

 

[Mal12345]

Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.

Ni is about the gathering of information, not proving who is the winner. I would say IxTJ or ExTJ, based on the above.

 

[Mal12345]

Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.

In my experience, ISTJ fits this description best.