[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram 8: Why can't I ask you guys questions?

[Such Irony]

What do you think of enneagram 5's? How well do you get along with them? What do you like the best about 5's? The least?

 

[Tem]

Of course I voice my opinions and ideas. That's actually part of the problem, usually - I voice them "too much" and piss them off. I'm a ENTJ 7w8 myself, not exactly the most tactful person in the world.

Yeah a few 7s drive me nuts. It's like they completely disrespect people's boundaries for amusement's sake -- don't take anything truly seriously because everything is a big joke.

Learning to respect others will bring you a long way.

 

[Mal12345]

Every enneagram 8 that I have ever known absolutely hates me to ask them questions. They like to get straight and to the point with things, and they want you to get something as fast as possible. Another thing is that if you don't just get something right off the bat, and need to ask more questions to clarify, then they look at you like you are some kind of idiot or something. Oh, and God forbid you need them to repeat themselves, then they really hate you. Has anyone else experienced this with type 8's.

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION]

You might like this thread.

Yes. It's like - 'go away tiny idiot who needs to be squashed into oblivion for even attempting to ask me - ME! - a question.'

 

[You]

Every enneagram 8 that I have ever known absolutely hates me to ask them questions. They like to get straight and to the point with things, and they want you to get something as fast as possible. Another thing is that if you don't just get something right off the bat, and need to ask more questions to clarify, then they look at you like you are some kind of idiot or something. Oh, and God forbid you need them to repeat themselves, then they really hate you. Has anyone else experienced this with type 8's.

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION]

You might like this thread.

This is how I know I'm a winged 8, because the closer you become with more the less tolerance I have for these kind of things. Strangers, I can handle. I understand. You might have missed a word - not being paying attention - I'll throw the charm on. But, in the case that you're an acquaintance or friend and you don't get what I'm saying I'll look at you like an absolute idiot.

 

[Azure Flame]

Yes. It's like - 'go away tiny idiot who needs to be squashed into oblivion for even attempting to ask me - ME! - a question.'

No, that's E6.

8's answer questions, unless they hate humanity. In which case you should probably give them a hug and tell them you wish there was a way humanity could be less disappointing. More fair, more integrity, less lies, less deceipt, less manipulation, less giving only to recieve, less taking out of vindictive self entitlement...

I'm sorry Mr 8. I'm sorry you had to be born into this world. I'm sorry you are alone and outcast as a result of not having any of these problems. I'm sorry you feel like there is something wrong with you.

If an 8 is angry, you should consider how you are an addition to the problem and not a subtraction. 8's were built to reveal your bullshit, because without us, life would just be a buncha miserable people settling for less and giving up in life. And the 7's are sure as hell not motivated enough to destroy evil where it stands. 1's... maybe.

 

[infinite]

Every enneagram 8 that I have ever known absolutely hates me to ask them questions. They like to get straight and to the point with things, and they want you to get something as fast as possible. Another thing is that if you don't just get something right off the bat, and need to ask more questions to clarify, then they look at you like you are some kind of idiot or something. Oh, and God forbid you need them to repeat themselves, then they really hate you. Has anyone else experienced this with type 8's.

I don't relate to hating of questions when it's questions about how to do something. I do know a 8-fixer who likes to do this when I ask a question that he thinks everyone should be able to answer themselves. He likes to shout "you moron", "what do you think the answer is?" etc. etc. I just shouted back telling him to answer and not to call me a moron. When that repeated, I managed to make him understand that I don't always have the background information that he happens to have so it's absolutely natural for me to ask him the question. Simple as that. He understood when I was shouting this explanation loud enough But yeah, I absolutely hate that sort of behaviour and I never tolerate it when someone's being like that to me. You mentioned your co-worker even laughing at you, well I tolerate that even less and I would never laugh at someone just because they didn't get something right away.

If the questions are about my private life and I don't want to answer, I just tell that to the person and I can say this without shouting, I don't take it as an insult. Though, that depends on the circumstances. Example, recently someone tried to insult me, she tried really hard for a while, heh I was having fun; and then it was like she suddenly forgot what she was doing and asked me a question about my private life, yes, imagine that. Of course I very clearly told her she was being an idiot if she expected me to answer that. I was still having fun with the absurdity though

I also don't like it when the questions seem to be done with a patronizing intent like others already explained in this thread. I absolutely don't tolerate that either.

Btw I have the 7 wing if that matters. I'm pretty close to being almost core 7, too.

Maybe it's because your friend has developed some Fi. However, I have noticed that both the ENTJ 8's and the ISTP 8's do this. And yes, I know the look that you are talking about when you say that they give you a look that says, "What are you stupid"? I want to punch them in the fucking mouth when they give me that look.

So, punch them Lol

See I think that this is the impression that 8's get from me: That I am trying to get into their heads, scan for their weaknesses, or pry into their business. However, this is not the case. What I am attempting to do by asking these questions is to just shoot the shit with them, try to be friendly with them, and try to understand who they are. I don't understand why 8's view this as such a threat.

If you were trying to get "friendly" in a way that looks like trying to get inside my head, I might get annoyed yes. It's not a threat, I simply don't need people to do this. Like someone else in the thread said, some stuff is just not your business.

But it really depends on what kind of questions these are. If it's all in some fun atmosphere, I might be ok with that. Still not going to respond to whatever I don't want to respond to, though.

Well many times I ask questions in order to just understand how to thoroughly perform a task, or in order to completely grasp a subject. As a core 6, I constantly think that I am going to fuck things up, and I ask questions in order to avoid messing things up. After all, the more you know about how to do a task , the less chance you have of making an error. However, I guess 8's think that this is showing a sign of weakness by questioning yourself and your abilities in the first place. Also, I guess 8's are so gut center that they don't understand why I think about how to do something so much, and why I am not actually doing it.

I don't know if it's gut center or what but yes, that's spot on. I can't really think about how to do something, I either do it or not, thinking about it is too abstract. Note I'm an ST type so it's definitely no wonder I have this approach.

To make this more clear. Of course I'm capable of analysing something to understand it and I like doing so but this is always retrospective analysis based on my actual experience. I don't do it before the action or during the action. only afterwards and usually only if gaining understanding helps me with my goals. Sometimes I can go a bit beyond what the goal requires but not too far beyond.

Anyway I'm just fine with people who need to understand before doing, as long as I can help them by answering their questions and they actually put in the effort to understand, it's all great. I have a lot of patience for explaining stuff.

I do think it's weird though that you'd question your abilities so much. Oh well as long as it doesn't get in your way and you do still go and do the stuff...

You have a point. I just assumed it was because you felt threatened. I thought that this was the nature of the beast.

Don't try to force enneagram ideas into every explanation you try to make up about people. There's more to people than a few enneagram theory ideas. The enneagram is all cool but it's just a theory, reality comes before theory.

2) Another point that I would like to make is that many times in doing a task or trying to understand something, when I am asking my boatload of questions, it angers the 8's. So what I will do is just not ask questions in order to avoid confrontation. Then, once it's actually time to do the task, I won't know how to do it, and the 8 will look at me like I'm an incompetent dipshit. You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Uhh yeah that's a really bad idea if you opt for not asking the questions. You need to get it into his head that you need the answers before you're able to do the task, and well, the task needs to be done, right?

This is another thing that angers 8's that I do. I often ask 8's to repeat themselves for clarity. It seems that 8's absolutely hate to repeat themselves. Why is that?

Give me a specific example where they hated repeating something.

This raises another point. Being ENTP and a core head center type, I really am not that action oriented. I will eventually take action, but I want to just sit and talk about how something is going to be done and understand all of the mechanics behind how the task will be performed before I actually perform it. This drives 8's nuts, because it seems that they want to give someone a very brief preview over how something will be done, and then they just expect that person to jump into action. This is not how I function at all, and it makes most type 8's livid.

As long as you're not getting in my way by delaying action, I don't really mind. But again, if you described a specific situation, maybe I'd understand the issue more.

The Sp 8's are really my favorites because they are the easiest to deal with IMO. I generally despise the SX dom 8's the most because they are almost like savage beasts. They are so gut center that they almost seem more like animals than humans, i.e., Kratos from "God of War", Drogo from "Game of Thrones", Wolverine from "X-Men", etc.

What, seriously, what black and white thinking is this, 8 sx = savage beast? I hate that way of categorizing. I'm not an animal, I'm an actual person, okay?

Another thing I hate about 8's: if they think that something is common sense to them or if they personally think that the question is stupid, they often won't answer it. It seems like it's like pulling an arm and a leg to get 8's to empathize with you, come down to your level, and realize that not everyone may have their level of understanding on a subject.

Yes with the 8-fixer I mentioned, it was like pulling an arm and leg to make him understand that. He was smart enough to get it though when I explained clearly enough (and with raised voice heh). And btw I haven't seen anyone else who was like this to such an extreme degree, he was the only one who needed to be explained this.

Ok thank you so much. That is actually a very good idea. From now on, I won't just say, "I don't understand". I will say, "I understand this" and "I understand that" but can you clarify this part? That's actually a really good idea.

That is a good idea, yes. +1

Thinking about it, when someone just says "I don't understand", I first react by asking "what is it you don't understand". If they can't answer that then yes I might lose patience. Depends. But I definitely have the patience up until that point, it's only fair to give a chance for communication.

Yeah, I have learned to curve any type of passive-aggressive tendencies with 8's. Eights tend to absolute despise passive-aggression any in way, shape, or form. Eights want you to be very upfront and direct with them. However, it can be very hard to be upfront with 8's and many of them don't seem to understand why this is. 8's in general tend to be very abrasive and can easily come off as scary to most people. So what happens is that people tend to avoid them like the plague. People tend to go behind 8's backs and tend to avoid them because they are so afraid to face them. Then when people go behind the 8's backs, they see it as being unloyal, as being sneaky, and as being untrustworthy. This is another thing that makes type 8's hard to deal with.

I have experienced this with people too many times and honestly I don't understand. Why be afraid of talking to me? And when someone tells me that someone else told them they have a problem with me but don't dare to talk to me about it, they never tell me who the "someone else" is so I don't have a chance to have a direct talk with that person. It's all so stupid and really annoys me. It also happened that someone did finally manage to admit that there was a problem but they could not say anything more than just this simple fact. No way to truly confront these people and no way to fix things. And yeah passive-aggression is stupid.

It's not just me who thinks this. 8's tend to have a way of carrying themselves where they just exert aggressive energy and people perceive it that way. 8's often don't understand just how aggressive that they come off to others. There may be no intended aggression on the 8's part, but that's how it comes off to other people.

Yeah I really don't get it. Btw it depends on how you define "aggression". I use this word to describe truly aggressive behaviour but other people including you seem to use it way too freely Like, being oversensitive or something.

Btw I don't think I always seem aggressive or intimidating, when I'm in a good mood having fun I can't imagine that looks like that. Though if the fun means me poking at other people then maybe.

Also when I'm just out there, not talking and just doing my own thing, I don't see that as intimidating either. Idk how others see that but I think people's problems are mostly when I'm either having too much fun or when I'm actively confronting them.

So, my question is, when the 8's you know are just out doing their own thing, or they are being in a good mood (I don't mean the "overdone" fun now), do you still see them this way, scary or what?

Notice how you interpreted my response? As if 8s are threatened? Is it in the least bit possible that it's not because of threat but because it's really none of your business?

Yeah, it's just boundaries.

Yeah, I had an ESTP 8 boss who was like this everytime I asked him to clarify something (and I really had to ask him because he was extremely picky about work being done exactly the way he wanted, and the way he wanted was fairly different from my natural style). Not to mention whenever anyone said something that went "over his head" - comment: "lol he's really stupid he can't even explain his ideas".

I understand it's often a matter of being time-sensitive when there's a lot of stuff to do, but then you're asking the people around you to be mind readers rather than hard workers.

That's extremely stupid, expecting people to be mind readers. I don't get those sort of people, at all. If I happen to talk to someone like that, I always tell them very clearly that I'm not a mind reader and that they need to directly answer me instead of bullshitting around. I call that stuff bullshit, yeah, also what you said about your boss saying "lol he's really stupid he can't even explain his ideas". Lol.

I would wonder why you aren't actually doing it. I don't have an issue with wanting clarification on something but you can't stand still and just ask questions. My thought would be that you don't want to and/or don't plan to do anything.

Why wonder? See if it's actually so, but wondering and assuming ...not going to work IMO. I'd ask the person if there is still anything unclear and if so what is it and why. I guess there are really incompetent people too but that's another matter.

Well let me ask you this. If you had to explain a task that someone did every day, same time, same way and still asked for clarification, where would you draw the line and say - you can't learn this and I can't explain it any more clearly? Maybe it wouldn't have to be repeated if that person seeking clarification learned it another way, for instance. Why is your learning placed on us? That's probably what is so angering for 8's, although I can't say for sure for every 8.

Huh, that isn't even a realistic scenario, someone asking the same thing everyday after they've already done the task many times. Just because OP doesn't want all the "learning" placed on him - for hopefully entirely valid reasons -, it doesn't mean it all has to be placed on you. How about share it in a fair way? You explain with patience, the other person puts the effort in to understand. Now if someone truly has a low IQ or something, that's different, but even then the solution is not shouting "moron" to them. Try to get them replaced if it's a job, etc.

I don't even bother asking anymore though. It's to the point that I don't care about the 8 anymore. So if I get it wrong, it's cause I wasn't trained right, not cause I'm stupid, and not cause I didn't ask. Oh well for them, shit happens.

Did you ever try to explain this to the 8 guy? That the task won't be done well if you're not trained etc.

I don't think such responses are the sole glory of the 8. There is, on occasion, simply too many questions being asked and one must throw ones hands up in the air ala surrender in the form of "OMG IM DONE."

I have to deal with my INTP father at my business on occasion during the week, and while at times it IS beneficial to have the power house of investigative functions working its magic upon the computers... it is another thing entirely to say "I want X done" and discover that my decision has now become a tug of war of details and facts which to me seem to be so obvious as to be dancing in glittering seductive costumes with a trick pony at their side to the point where I throw down the iron wall of "JUST DO IT AND DONT WONDER ABOUT IT" which drives him insane for he must know ALL THE REASONS.

Have you ever asked why he needs all the reasons? Have you asked him if the facts are obvious to him too?

The idea is, if you need the information, then you need it. If you don't, why are you asking at all? If you're needing to ask, then ask and be upfront about it. Give the situation some dignity and respect. It isn't like all of us are immediately going to bite someone heads off. In fact, I've had people frequently tell me I seem really scary, bitchy, cold-hearted... then when they get to know me, all those ideas vanish. It's a delusion people have--but they'll never get over it if they don't make steps to do so. I can't change someone's mind actively, they'll figure out if I'm really all those things or not on their own. Even if it's scary.. It isn't like there isn't anyone that intimidates me in my life either. Yet I get up there and do it. Because it is a sign of respect. I have a lot of trouble talking about my feelings, and it takes a lot to muster up that strength to do so.. but it's okay, and I do it, because I know it's important and there's a degree of health to it.

Yes, talking to me directly, is a sign of respect, absolutely.

What kind of people intimidate you?

When you take the effort to talk about your feelings, what kind of reward do you actually get for it? I don't see what I'd get out of it. So I'm curious to hear what you found in it for it to be worth doing.

I have never, ever heard anyone saying they felt more respected with passive-aggressive behavior. Not even quiet, shy, mousy people. And anything that can be mistaken for passive-aggressive behavior is more abrasive to me than anything you would ever say to me straight up, and immediately puts me on the defense. If it's someone I know well enough, it is easy for me to look past that. But I don't know many people THAT well.

+1

To be fair, teachers ought to have extensive training about how to properly teach students. I don't really have any problems getting a student to finally learn a subject regardless of how many times and ways I have to explain it.

+1!

It's a frustration, sure. But that's something 8s just work on with themselves. Because, really, no one gets EVERYTHING the first go-around in their lives. Frequently, though, I found that many people not getting a task immediately are not getting it because of distractions or a lack of paying attention--they didn't hear it the first time, they were on their phones, they didn't care then, they were daydreaming, and then they ask again because they realized too late important stuff was being said/done. So it is grating when you see that so constantly and frequently, and you're going to sometimes get mad at people who genuinely had real distractions they couldn't help, but it is what it is.

Too much +1

I've learned the hard way that this is exactly how I come off. Nearly everyone I knew in the army thought I was a terrible scary person when they first met me.

And what did they say, why did they see you as scary when first meeting you?

How did you learn the hard way? Do you mean just people saying this to you or was there more to this story of learning the "hard way"?

What do you think of enneagram 5's? How well do you get along with them? What do you like the best about 5's? The least?

5's are interesting animals. Smart people, I'm sure.

I don't like it when 5's withdraw too much. They don't like my "nagging". And I don't like being ignored. I also don't like how passive they seem.

Sorry if I was saying too many negatives here but it's my disintegration point so...... it's not all entirely positive to me. Though I do appreciate some insights that the "5 mode" allows me.

Probably because 8's like being treated like human beings, a concept that is completely foreign to you.

Wut.

No, that's E6.

8's answer questions, unless they hate humanity. In which case you should probably give them a hug and tell them you wish there was a way humanity could be less disappointing. More fair, more integrity, less lies, less deceipt, less manipulation, less giving only to recieve, less taking out of vindictive self entitlement...

I'm sorry Mr 8. I'm sorry you had to be born into this world. I'm sorry you are alone and outcast as a result of not having any of these problems. I'm sorry you feel like there is something wrong with you.

If an 8 is angry, you should consider how you are an addition to the problem and not a subtraction. 8's were built to reveal your bullshit, because without us, life would just be a buncha miserable people settling for less and giving up in life. And the 7's are sure as hell not motivated enough to destroy evil where it stands. 1's... maybe.

More wut.

Idk why you're saying these things here but I don't need a hug. When I'm upset about people's bullshit, I just need those people to be fair and direct. Nothing else. A hug doesn't comfort me.

Don't get me wrong, a hug and well, other things beyond it, are niiiiiice when you're in bed - or not bed - with your SO.

 

[kyuuei]

What kind of people intimidate you?

When you take the effort to talk about your feelings, what kind of reward do you actually get for it? I don't see what I'd get out of it. So I'm curious to hear what you found in it for it to be worth doing.

All sorts of people intimidate me for different reasons. Large companies that have my money in their possession intimidate me because my temper and mouth could be difference between getting a refund and losing my stuff. People who are the difference between my livelihood or not intimidate me for obvious reasons. People with respectable authority have a respectable amount of intimidation even if they're nice, good people. It's a normal human thing to rank people in your mind--and I'd be delusional to think I ranked the exact same as everyone in every situation. It's only my ideology that I am equal to anyone else in overall situations that allows me to take some confidence in my approaches--both leading and following.

There's plenty of rewards for talking about one's feelings. First, no one's a damn mind reader. If you're not angry at them but just an angry person, people need to know that. It's disrespectful to just assume everyone knows everything--usually I find the opposite to be true, and people seem to be totally lost without some blunt, direct mentions. Communication is one of the leading things that make or break relationships of all sorts--platonic on up. I can say from experience, everyone should be told things that pertain to them. My boyfriend is a functioning, active member of my life, for example. If I never bothered to tell him how I felt about him, how would he really know? Sure he can guess--but lots of guys guess wrong all of the time. It's great when I get confirmation of my hunches and instincts.. so I try to give it where I can.

It's easier to talk to a long term relationship than it is a friend.. but it is important for friends to know as well. It benefits *me* to tell others. When they know what's going on with me, they can help me, or back off, or adjust to my needs.. just like I can do with them when I know what's going on with them. Just because I'm an angry and sort of self-centered person doesn't mean I don't want to take care of those in my life. I don't go around telling my mom "Omg I'm soooo in love with Mark Walhberg!" or whatever.. even though I totally am.. but when it pertains to her? Like telling her she's great and thanks for helping me because it really helped me? Yeah, you gotta say that stuff. Because you're going to want it said to you, whether you like it or not. I have trouble with compliments, but that doesn't mean I ought to swear them off. I don't get better by ignoring the things I have trouble with.

And what did they say, why did they see you as scary when first meeting you?

How did you learn the hard way? Do you mean just people saying this to you or was there more to this story of learning the "hard way"?

Various reasons.. Red hair, I was quiet at first (gauging people and sizing them up), business-like (I was an NCO and wanted to establish that persona first), or maybe I said something to them to correct them that genuinely bothers me and they didn't know me so it was like "Who the fuck does she think she is? She just got here." I've had male army friends theorize that I give off an alpha persona, and women tend to not like that.. overly confident, which is frequently mistaken for bitchy. Just tons of reasons.

I learned the hard way when someone mentioned it--and a whole sea of barracks privates joined in.. It sucks, because you want to be perceived as nice, and you assume people like you because they never said otherwise (hence, why it's important to be honest with how you feel), and then you find out literally everyone hated you for a long time. And it continues to this day--I have trouble making female friends for one reason or another.

Idk why you're saying these things here but I don't need a hug. When I'm upset about people's bullshit, I just need those people to be fair and direct. Nothing else. A hug doesn't comfort me.

Don't get me wrong, a hug and well, other things beyond it, are niiiiiice when you're in bed - or not bed - with your SO.

Get out of your comfort zone for a minute. I don't NEED nice food, but I prefer it. Why would you write something off just because it isn't totally necessary? It really isn't necessary for me to do many of the things I do... but life can be improved vastly in quality with pleasant but not necessary acts. Does it not comfort you because you don't relate to the idea of touching others to show affection and sincerity? Because that's a typical human quality.. I'd look into myself for answers on why. I used to hate hugs and touches too.. for a long, long time.. because it was so intimate to me.. and I was so ready for the whole world to be as cut-throat secretly inside as I was. And .. it just isn't like that really. There's fluffy people who hug because.. it's a hug. And that's how THEY communicate. Just like I communicate by trying to fix stuff for people.

 

[Aha]

Every enneagram 8 that I have ever known absolutely hates me to ask them questions. They like to get straight and to the point with things, and they want you to get something as fast as possible. Another thing is that if you don't just get something right off the bat, and need to ask more questions to clarify, then they look at you like you are some kind of idiot or something. Oh, and God forbid you need them to repeat themselves, then they really hate you. Has anyone else experienced this with type 8's.

Sounds familiar. But! I love questions when I want to speak with someone. But yeah, not about something you could have deducted on your own.

 

[Azure Flame]

[MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION]

a figurative hug. Hugs don't do me much good either because they don't solve the problem, which is that the 8 is surrounded by weakness and "why the fuck is everyone complaining and lying all the time."

I find it is comforting when I have someone who at least sees my problems and does his best to make herself match my standards. Granted, we're stepping into socionics discussion here. This might not be an 8 problem, just a typical estp "why is no one as good as me at anything?" kinda problem.

 

[infinite]

[MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION]

Thanks for the long answer

All sorts of people intimidate me for different reasons. Large companies that have my money in their possession intimidate me because my temper and mouth could be difference between getting a refund and losing my stuff. People who are the difference between my livelihood or not intimidate me for obvious reasons. People with respectable authority have a respectable amount of intimidation even if they're nice, good people. It's a normal human thing to rank people in your mind--and I'd be delusional to think I ranked the exact same as everyone in every situation. It's only my ideology that I am equal to anyone else in overall situations that allows me to take some confidence in my approaches--both leading and following.

Interesting, about ranking people vs equality. I can certainly rank people based on material variables.. but beyond that, I don't really do any of it...

You use the word "ideology", do you mean you actually had to consciously create an ideology for this?

There's plenty of rewards for talking about one's feelings. First, no one's a damn mind reader. If you're not angry at them but just an angry person, people need to know that. It's disrespectful to just assume everyone knows everything--usually I find the opposite to be true, and people seem to be totally lost without some blunt, direct mentions. Communication is one of the leading things that make or break relationships of all sorts--platonic on up. I can say from experience, everyone should be told things that pertain to them. My boyfriend is a functioning, active member of my life, for example. If I never bothered to tell him how I felt about him, how would he really know? Sure he can guess--but lots of guys guess wrong all of the time. It's great when I get confirmation of my hunches and instincts.. so I try to give it where I can.

Your example about letting people know what you are angry at exactly is pretty reasonable. I sometimes realize myself that they may not know what my anger is directed at. Though this is not the same as talking about other kinds of feelings. I totally agree otherwise that expecting people to mind read is stupid.

As for your boyfriend, I found the sentence funny where you referred to him as a "functioning, active member of my life" Yeah sure reasonable to tell your SO that you love them.

It's easier to talk to a long term relationship than it is a friend.. but it is important for friends to know as well. It benefits *me* to tell others. When they know what's going on with me, they can help me, or back off, or adjust to my needs.. just like I can do with them when I know what's going on with them. Just because I'm an angry and sort of self-centered person doesn't mean I don't want to take care of those in my life. I don't go around telling my mom "Omg I'm soooo in love with Mark Walhberg!" or whatever.. even though I totally am.. but when it pertains to her? Like telling her she's great and thanks for helping me because it really helped me? Yeah, you gotta say that stuff. Because you're going to want it said to you, whether you like it or not. I have trouble with compliments, but that doesn't mean I ought to swear them off. I don't get better by ignoring the things I have trouble with.

I'm not sure I understand your first sentence here. Are you trying to say that it's easier for you to talk to your boyfriend about feelings (of love, etc), than to your friends?

As for saying "you're great and thanks for helping", I don't categorize that as talking about feelings. It's just describing how she is and thanking her for some kind of action. Btw I agree this is a good thing to say yeah.

Various reasons.. Red hair, I was quiet at first (gauging people and sizing them up), business-like (I was an NCO and wanted to establish that persona first), or maybe I said something to them to correct them that genuinely bothers me and they didn't know me so it was like "Who the fuck does she think she is? She just got here." I've had male army friends theorize that I give off an alpha persona, and women tend to not like that.. overly confident, which is frequently mistaken for bitchy. Just tons of reasons.

Red hair??? That's scary how?

Yeah, I find that if you correct people, they'll get intimidated sometimes.

Anyway just trying to figure out what can be scary for people because I don't get this stuff sometimes about people. Like above with the red hair.

Interesting you say most women don't like alpha women. What did your male army friends say about the reason for that? Just the confidence vs bitchy thingie?

I learned the hard way when someone mentioned it--and a whole sea of barracks privates joined in.. It sucks, because you want to be perceived as nice, and you assume people like you because they never said otherwise (hence, why it's important to be honest with how you feel), and then you find out literally everyone hated you for a long time. And it continues to this day--I have trouble making female friends for one reason or another.

Ah, this, I relate. I relate too much. Though I don't really assume people like me by default, it's more like I don't assume they hate me or have other negative feelings/intentions/etc towards me. Except when they give me a reason, of course. (A reason in my way of viewing things, anyway.) I used to assume that though, I mean, I naturally used to assume hostility as default without even noticing that assumption consciously... that was obviously due to certain early experiences. Then I later mellowed, somehow became more "open" or something and I then tried to be nice with people, be perceived as nice and all that. Didn't work out.

Oh yeah and female friends is also a problematic topic for me I don't get how most women are... I wouldn't mind a really feminine women friend around, sounds like fun from the short-lived experiences I've had, but it doesn't want to work out. I get on well with guys and with non-typical girls (non-feminine ones).

Get out of your comfort zone for a minute.

Now praytell why I should? *I know you're trying to explain later* *But it's really truly not as simple as that*

I don't NEED nice food, but I prefer it. Why would you write something off just because it isn't totally necessary? It really isn't necessary for me to do many of the things I do... but life can be improved vastly in quality with pleasant but not necessary acts. Does it not comfort you because you don't relate to the idea of touching others to show affection and sincerity? Because that's a typical human quality.. I'd look into myself for answers on why. I used to hate hugs and touches too.. for a long, long time.. because it was so intimate to me.. and I was so ready for the whole world to be as cut-throat secretly inside as I was. And .. it just isn't like that really. There's fluffy people who hug because.. it's a hug. And that's how THEY communicate. Just like I communicate by trying to fix stuff for people.

I don't really hate hugs, they are just not comforting. I'm mostly just neutral about them. I don't have an issue with fluffy people at all and I understand they use it as communication. It's true I don't really try to show affection by touching random people. Trying to fix stuff for people, sure, that's more me. Anyway, I can hug people no problem but I will still stay neutral or at least guarded. You could say I have a well working "shell" against being intimate, yes. As to why, that's not something you can fully answer let alone solve in 5 minutes' superficial effort. What you said about being ready for the world to be hostile, that does make some sense, though. I certainly have not had the realization you have, about people in general not really being cut-throats etc. Don't get me wrong, as I said I "mellowed" and I no longer assume this by default about everyone. But it's still easy to bring me into that state/outlook.

Well, certainly an interesting discussion, thanks.

[MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION]

a figurative hug. Hugs don't do me much good either because they don't solve the problem, which is that the 8 is surrounded by weakness and "why the fuck is everyone complaining and lying all the time."

I find it is comforting when I have someone who at least sees my problems and does his best to make herself match my standards. Granted, we're stepping into socionics discussion here. This might not be an 8 problem, just a typical estp "why is no one as good as me at anything?" kinda problem.

Yeah they don't solve the problem, that's a very good point.

I do understand you on the issue of why quite some people aren't being direct, honest etc.

I can't really comment on the socionics and estp ideas in depth but the reasoning seems messed up to me.

 

[TreeBob]

[MENTION=21718]infinite[/MENTION]

a figurative hug. Hugs don't do me much good either because they don't solve the problem, which is that the 8 is surrounded by weakness and "why the fuck is everyone complaining and lying all the time."

I find it is comforting when I have someone who at least sees my problems and does his best to make herself match my standards. Granted, we're stepping into socionics discussion here. This might not be an 8 problem, just a typical estp "why is no one as good as me at anything?" kinda problem.

Since when did ESTP care if people are as good as them?

 

[Azure Flame]

Since when did ESTP care if people are as good as them?

Old news.

 

[Azure Flame]

Since when did ESTP care if people are as good as them?

Old news. But if you want an article referring to what Im talking about check out the socionics erotic attitudes for SLE. "The conquerer is questing to find his equal."

If you ever read about napoleon you'll learn that he was outraged by the fact that everyone around him was so weak. But he is arguably SEE as well.

If you don't identify with any of this then you may have been raised in a family who loves you.

 

[TreeBob]

Old news. But if you want an article referring to what Im talking about check out the socionics erotic attitudes for SLE. "The conquerer is questing to find his equal."

If you ever read about napoleon you'll learn that he was outraged by the fact that everyone around him was so weak. But he is arguably SEE as well.

If you don't identify with any of this then you may have been raised in a family who loves you.

OK come on man, stop with the Socionics/MBTI comparison. Two different systems and SLE does not = ESTP. SLE = SLE and ESTP = ESTP. If you want to talk Socionics then just talk about it without mixing in MBTI. I don't believe in typing historical people (unless for shits and giggles) because it is impossible to really know a person's personality from historical texts. So how about we stick to talking about real life theory. MBTI doesn't really get into health issues much not to mention that if the theory of being born with your type is true, lack of hugs won't change your type.

Back to Enneagram...

I actually like a hug from my SO. I am not saying it solves my problems, but it is comforting. I don't find I am constantly in a defensive posture with my SO, and I am certainly not competing or thinking they are weak. If I had my hackles raised all the time I wouldn't be with that person as it would be too draining.

 

[Azure Flame]

OK come on man, stop with the Socionics/MBTI comparison. Two different systems and SLE does not = ESTP. SLE = SLE and ESTP = ESTP. If you want to talk Socionics then just talk about it without mixing in MBTI. I don't believe in typing historical people (unless for shits and giggles) because it is impossible to really know a person's personality from historical texts. So how about we stick to talking about real life theory. MBTI doesn't really get into health issues much not to mention that if the theory of being born with your type is true, lack of hugs won't change your type.

Back to Enneagram...

I actually like a hug from my SO. I am not saying it solves my problems, but it is comforting. I don't find I am constantly in a defensive posture with my SO, and I am certainly not competing or thinking they are weak. If I had my hackles raised all the time I wouldn't be with that person as it would be too draining.

hmm. Your opinion vs mine I guess.

I'm at the point where I can no longer say with conviction "8's do this" or "8's do that". With instinctual variants thrown into the mix a lot of things change from person to person. I am affected very much by my perception of humanity as a whole. If I were a different socionics type that would also play a huge role in differences.

If you are sx sp I would imagine you have little to no concern for other people's choices in comparison to myself.

 

[Azure Flame]

double post glitch

 

[Hitoshi-San]

I actually don't mind being asked questions, just as long as they're not overly intrusive. My family always gets mad at me for being "touchy" or "secretive" when in reality that's just none of their business. I would think I'm a lot more open towards friends and people that are coming to me in need of advice. I also just hate it when I feel like people are being snarky or condescending with a question, like they're asking me to prove I'm not an idiot.

But, yeah, I'm fine with questions!

 

[tanstaafl28]

I've been married to an 8 for 15 years (together for 18 years). I've seen her act this way on occasion. In general terms, the greater the workload she is currently facing, the less tolerant she becomes of what she considers to be "extraneous," "irrelevant," and/or "an abuse of her productive time." It's usually best to leave her alone when she's in "work mode."

 

[Bush]

I also just hate it when I feel like people are being snarky or condescending with a question, like they're asking me to prove I'm not an idiot.

Yeah. That's when I ask questions, whether to myself or to them. Someone wants me to 'prove myself'? Fine. What's their motivation? What are the stakes involved?

If it's an ego game, a pissing contest, then I can choose whether or not to bother to play. If they just want clarification, or if they want to give me some clarification, I'm usually down for that.

Also, intrusion is the worst.