Christianity: I'm Starting a Support Group for People on the Streets

[wildflower]

That is simply not true. People find hope and satisfaction is a variety of things. Nature made sure that family, friends, and children are most important to human beings.

what sort of hope do you offer someone in their 20s or 30s who is dying of cancer? i know 2 people experiencing that. i know another in her 30s with huntington's disease which is just horrific. how would you give hope to her husband and baby? i'm asking for an honest answer here. eta: what is the "better future" that you speak of to those who are dying at a young age?

family, friends et al can all leave, die, be wonderful, terrible or anywhere in between depending on the day and a host of other factors. material things can be wiped out in a NY minute. that's all a pretty flimsy hope to build on.

personally, i wouldn't put my trust in nature. she seems pretty pissed off these days.

As for 'making whole', what does that even mean?

with a name like nicodemus i'd think you'd know. i guess you're just blowing smoke. you do know that ole nic did become a follower of jesus, right? who knows, maybe there is even hope for you.

as for 'making whole'...shalom: wholeness, peace, healing, prosperity, etc. etc.

 

[Nicodemus]

what sort of hope do you offer someone in their 20s or 30s who is dying of cancer?

Hope for a relatively painless death.

I might also mention this:

i know another in her 30s with huntington's disease which is just horrific. how would you give hope to her husband and baby? i'm asking for an honest answer here. eta: what is the "better future" that you speak of to those who are dying at a young age?

They have none.

O God, give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed,
The courage to change what can be changed,
and the wisdom to know the one from the other.

family, friends et al can all leave, die, be wonderful, terrible or anywhere in between depending on the day and a host of other factors. material things can be wiped out in a NY minute. that's all a pretty flimsy hope to build on.

That is all there is. And all of it is less flimsy than the phantom you would build your hopes on.

with a name like nicodemus i'd think you'd know. i guess you're just blowing smoke. you do know that ole nic did become a follower of jesus, right? who knows, maybe there is even hope for you.

as for 'making whole'...shalom: wholeness, peace, healing, prosperity, etc. etc.

I do have a notion of what 'making whole' is supposed to mean; I just think that it is vacuous, like 'divine', 'all-powerful', 'blessed'.

 

[OptoGypsy]

Why not give them hope and community instead of a false belief in supernatural supervision?

To begin with answering that question I'm going to go more in depth in what I mean when I say I don't believe in the religious aspects if you don't care you can skip to the next paragraph. To begin with I don't believe in the fundamentalist young creationist theory that the world is only 6,000 years old as far as I can tell God woke up with a hard one and was so hard and hot to the point that he couldn't contain it anymore and jizzed the universe out unto mother nature and we are the ever evolving creation of the two of them you can watch Cosmos: A Space Odyssey for the rest of the info. I also find that most of the Old Testament stories are simply allegories that where created to help the Jews live good moral lives, Christ was a rebellious bad-ass with quotes like "the first will be last and the last will be first" and he may or may not have resurrected. I don't care for the existence of heaven or hell and what Christians have envisioned the two to be may be illusions to what the after life is, similar to people moving to the States for the American Dream only to find out that is a lie. To finish off this rant shrooms are equally potent in giving people a spiritual encounter with God as prayer is.

Now that I'm done with that I'm going to answer your question. Human beings are in search of being complete (this has become more potent with the creation of the media/advertisement then it was before) and sadly in search to being complete people become obliged to having others tell them what to do and what they need we see this in consumerism, the search for popularity, relationships etc. Now no matter what they do people will never become complete unless they give up all hope because they will always want something more after they have obtained an objective. The symbol for people are the all consuming whore and where I see God (it isn't the only way) coming in is by having these people that can't simply be satisfied with facing reality a hope that they don't need to obtain but is simply given to them and it will forever be theirs no matter what they do (through the Resurrection of Christ all are given Grace.) That's where the question of people being left behind by their parents for being homosexual (I bet you can add in more groups) come in, these people are driven by image and the seeking to be respected by their community instead of living a Christ-like life and we can see this by reading the New Testament, there is no indication in that Christ would've acted in a similar way the sad truth is that their are few genuine Christians out there (Christ is dead in America.)

To summarize I'm not trying to give people a truth I'm offering them a life-style that satisfies

 

[wildflower]

They have none.

and yet you posted that you can offer people hope in "a better future". keep blowin' that smoke nic…

 

[inventor]

Even though I don't believe in the religious aspects of Christianity. I've seen what it has done in peoples lives and I see the potential in what it can do for a person that needs hope and a community. Therefore I'm starting starting a program with the youth ministry that I go to currently. I'm open to any questions, ideas and feedback you may have to offer me in this endeavor

And a new cult has begun....

 

[Nicodemus]

and yet you posted that you can offer people hope in "a better future". keep blowin' that smoke nic…

No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.

Seriously, does Christianity make people immune to common sense?

 

[Beorn]

No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.

"Better" is an imaginary concept. There is only the future.

Why do you want people to have hope in something that isn't real?

 

[gromit]

Just had an thought-provoking discussion yesterday in one of my classes. That faith and spirituality can be a great resource to a lot of patients. There has been a lot of interesting research about this interaction between physical/emotional health and well-being and an individual's spirituality.

Our role as practitioners isn't to agree or disagree with where people are spiritually, or to try to get patients to see things a particular way, but to try to meet them where they are, support them, help find a way to use that spirituality as a resource during their treatments (if it is something they will find helpful and meaningful). Of course some people will have zero interest in this, some people will find meaning and hope in other aspects of life beside a religion or a spiritual belief (eg family, friends, spending time with pets, going for walks in the woods... whatever), and that is what we work with.

I found that the discussion to tap into some of my own perspectives, even though it's a bit weird to contemplate actually integrating into practice - just because the standard medical model is so very dry and scientific. I don't think believing in something supernatural or an afterlife is a false, empty hope, if that is what is sincerely in a person's heart. And I don't think finding meaning in the here and now is empty either.

 

[Nicodemus]

"Better" is an imaginary concept. There is only the future.

Why do you want people to have hope in something that isn't real?

I disagree with the premise.

 

[Beorn]

I disagree with the premise.

What is the fixed standard for a better life? Is it not merely a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality in which case "better" is whatever you want it to be.

 

[wildflower]

No, I did not. You can offer people hope in a better future, but obviously not everybody can have one.

yes, you have to qualify the hell out of what you said because you have nothing to offer. whatever. you can have the last word. makes no difference to me.

 

[small.wonder]

That is simply not true. People find hope and satisfaction is a variety of things. Nature made sure that family, friends, and children are most important to human beings.

This is of course largely an opinion based topic. It's a pretty obvious fact though that people are only a temporary satisfaction and source of hope. I love my family dearly, but I know they (like me) are temporary and thus I can't be completed or find my purpose solely in them. If I did, I'd be totally destroyed if/when something were to happen to them. I will feel great sadness when that happens someday, but I know that my hope and anchor is in something larger (and so is theirs). That hope gives me immense freedom from fear or worry. Which brings me to this...

Seriously, does Christianity make people immune to common sense?

Yes and no.

Yes: It frees us from being chained down by fear, anxiety, legalism and many of the limitations of this world. I've seen and experienced some ridiculous things that came to be because the person in question allowed themselves to give control to God and not fret over "common sense". I know that sounds weird, and it's of course completely contrary to our nature as humans-- to give up control. But when we do, things we thought impossible can happen. The financial provision to pursue that business venture that we feel called to, comes out of left field. The test comes back cancer-free when the patient was given 2 weeks to live. I decide to go after an idea that I have, even when everyone I know thinks it's silly-- and it turns into something awesome. I get diagnosed at 15 with a disorder that completely train-wrecks 8 years of my life, but by breathing deep and saying, "okay God", years later I see those dark years used for good. That's the beauty in my belief that God is way bigger than me and has my back, because of that no unknown is scary for me. I trust (and have seen) that all my pain and negative experiences will be redeemed for good and that God will use me wherever I am. It's a freedom unlike any other I've experienced.

No: God gave us a brain for a reason, he loves that we think and wonder and question. He says "seek and you will find me", he invites us to investigate Him, ask questions, study and find Him in our own way-- and He promises to meet us there if we are open to Him. Many people who doubted the existence of God have done just that and He met them-- I mean, there have to be 100's of books by people about that. C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel are two of my favorites on that list.

But you know, at the end of the day, whatever floats your boat. I have a policy to respect people where they are at and only contribute what I think (or believe) if they ask (as you have).

 

[Nicodemus]

What is the fixed standard for a better life? Is it not merely a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality in which case "better" is whatever you want it to be.

There is no fixed standard. It is, if you want to put it that way, a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality, making it whatever you want it to be. That does not make 'better' an imaginary concept, though.

yes, you have to qualify the hell out of what you said because you have nothing to offer. whatever. you can have the last word. makes no difference to me.

Your failure to comprehend simple common-sense arguments is entirely your problem. What kind of moron would claim that everyone's future is going to be better than their present or past?

 

[Beorn]

It is, if you want to put it that way, a matter of an individual's desires correlating with reality, making it whatever you want it to be.

I do want to put it that way, because it's accurate. You're talking in terms and language that developed with a different set of presuppositions as your own so it's better that we be accurate lest people think that you share more in common with those ideals than you really do.

That does not make 'better' an imaginary concept, though.

Well, at least we agree it's subjective. The individual desires and the correlation can be real, but the concept of better is not only subjective in your world, but inherently qualitative and based on the notion of good which can't exist in your world. This is especially true when talking about a "better future."

Perhaps it would be best if you just said that "People can hope that their preferences are met in the future."

 

[wildflower]

Your failure to comprehend simple common-sense arguments is entirely your problem. What kind of moron would claim that everyone's future is going to be better than their present or past?

did you really not realize i was playing the pharisee to your pharisee?

okay, i really am done now. let's all watch while nic continues to argue.

 

[Nicodemus]

You're talking in terms and language that developed with a different set of presuppositions as your own [...]

Bullshit. Since everything else is built on that premise, the rest of your argument is also bullshit. 'Good' is not a religious term.

did you really not realize i was playing the pharisee to your pharisee?

You failed. Not to mention that this act makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Beorn]

Bullshit. Since everything else is built on that premise, the rest of your argument is also bullshit. 'Good' is not a religious term.

We mean distinctly different things when we use the term. The fact that we call many of the same things good is irrelevant.

 

[Nicodemus]

We mean distinctly different things when we use the term. The fact that we call many of the same things good is irrelevant.

Correct. So what is your problem?

 

[Mole]

A Supernatural Being or Self Help?

Why not give them hope and community instead of a false belief in supernatural supervision?

This is a good question. And just the kind of question we would expect from Nicodemus.

And a good question deserves a good answer.

For instance, we can believe in a supernatural being in Alcoholics Anonymous or we can help ourselves at SHARE!

So a belief in a supernatural being is not necessary to learn to share and thrive.

So click on SHARE!

 

[Brimstone]

I ended up homeless last year, I got by on my own and in my own way, realise I was lucky to have options most others dont.

its a long story, but it boiled down to being alone, not trusting anyone, I was at rock bottom, no family, no friends, I turned to the church...........and I think it was a huge mistake, they did some good at first, welcomed me in, but as soon as it was obvious I wasnt going to swallow their docrtine I was insidiously pushed away. I tried other places that had christians and the same happened. Its done more harm than good, I avoid them like the plague now, some of the worlds worst people I know, they seem like respectful citizens but if you arent one of them, they turn on you. even the vicar made up his mind about me, even though he was wrong. one thing ive noticed, once a christian has made their mind up, its cast in stone! too judgemental. I would have expected compassion, a bit of love and understanding, an open mind. Real love and compassion is hard to find, certainly the real deal, not fake words and promises. Id echo what was said above, be genuine, totally transparent, and really know you want to do this for their help alone, be totally selfless, dont do it to make yourself look good or feel better, abused people are used to seeing through people, their trust in humanity has been severely damaged. I expect most will just want genuine help and some compassion, if they become chistian or not is another matter, dont push them into it.

Hope is key - and that lies in the future, and in meaning.
Relationships - love, hugs, shared tears, and laughter are required to mend the broken hearts and restore trust
knowledge - to think for themselves, to learn, become cognizant of their situation and how to move forwards, thats dignity.
time - like a reaction to grief, there is a special type of healing that only time can do, and it weaves through everything we do.
spirit - the human spirit, it can survive, its strong enough, it overcomes situations and circumstance.

and thats just my personal formula for getting through it all. its a work in progress. spirit, hope, and knowledge are keeping me afloat.

best of luck to you.