4s vs 8s

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I think it's actually a good question. I am an 8-fixed 4w5, and this made it more or less impossible for me to see myself as either a 4 or an 8 for many years. I didn't know WHAT I was. I'm probably not what most people would think of as a "typical 4" (including myself, bogged down in stereotypes as I was).

As far as "sadism" and "masochism" I've done a bit of both and am actually more identified (in layman's terms) as being "sadistic"--I was the mean older sibling, for one thing.

With all due respect to those who work on this issue, I don't think the answer is as simple as a dichotomy:

Shame vs anger
Escape to fantasy vs powerbase building in coping with reality
Master of the emotional realm vs master of the physical realm
Evasive vs aggressive
Operates from the heart vs operates from the gut
->mulling over stuff vs quick draw
Perfection driven vs powerdriven
Fear of being broken inherently vs fear of being vulnerable and at someone elses mercy

That's not to single you out specifically, Amargith. What you put here is actually quite good and hugely relevant for probably the majority of 4s and 8s. But it raises the question, what about weirdos like me?

I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of. Indeed, the two are interlinked--showing how inherently messed up I am will leave me at the mercy of a brutal world...but then I feel like I should stop bullshitting everyone and just be honest about it.

So whenever I start mulling dichotomies over, it's like...Um, both. Kind of. Neither. I dunno.

As I'm sure you know by now, DJ, it really is more about motivations, connections, and focusing on the worst of one's psychology, which, unfortunately, can't be reduced to a simple one-line litmus test.

I personally know I'm not an 8 because I've got the co-motivations of my 3-wing and 5-wing as well as a giant 1-connection. So, one measure you can use is to try to detect the motivations of the wings.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, you want to look at the core, lifelong issues that the individual has had. As often as I've been a commanding asshole to those close to me...as warlike an outlook on life as I've privately maintained...as much as I like a challenge...and as physically angry as I can sometimes be...the core passion that gets under my skin is that of Envy. I keep coming back to the feeling that people all have been privileged in some way that I haven't (usually involving beauty and social skills) and this enrages and depresses me. My first and worst tendency is to be "withdrawn" rather than "aggressive". I feel like the environment has nothing to do with me, rather than being subordinate to me...and I often forget I'm not watching TV.

I hope that's somewhat helpful, although I'm eager to hear [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] 's testimony, as I suspect she's a lot more 8ish than me.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

One last thing.

6) 4s, even the more aggressive ones have a delicate quality to them; 8s are about as delicate as a silver back gorilla

Elfboy...again, with all due respect to well-thought out dichotomies...I doubt anyone who knows me would call me "delicate". Quiet, polite, even impressionable, perhaps...not delicate. Actually, I'd be offended if they did.

Hence my years of mistyping.

(PS--I'd be offended if they called me a silver back as well.)

 

[Amargith]

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I think it's actually a good question. I am an 8-fixed 4w5, and this made it more or less impossible for me to see myself as either a 4 or an 8 for many years. I didn't know WHAT I was. I'm probably not what most people would think of as a "typical 4" (including myself, bogged down in stereotypes as I was).

As far as "sadism" and "masochism" I've done a bit of both and am actually more identified (in layman's terms) as being "sadistic"--I was the mean older sibling, for one thing.

With all due respect to those who work on this issue, I don't think the answer is as simple as a dichotomy:

That's not to single you out specifically, Amargith. What you put here is actually quite good and hugely relevant for probably the majority of 4s and 8s. But it raises the question, what about weirdos like me?

I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of. Indeed, the two are interlinked--showing how inherently messed up I am will leave me at the mercy of a brutal world...but then I feel like I should stop bullshitting everyone and just be honest about it.

So whenever I start mulling dichotomies over, it's like...Um, both. Kind of. Neither. I dunno.

As I'm sure you know by now, DJ, it really is more about motivations, connections, and focusing on the worst of one's psychology, which, unfortunately, can't be reduced to a simple one-line litmus test.

I personally know I'm not an 8 because I've got the co-motivations of my 3-wing and 5-wing as well as a giant 1-connection. So, one measure you can use is to try to detect the motivations of the wings.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, you want to look at the core, lifelong issues that the individual has had. As often as I've been a commanding asshole to those close to me...as warlike an outlook on life as I've privately maintained...as much as I like a challenge...and as physically angry as I can sometimes be...the core passion that gets under my skin is that of Envy. I keep coming back to the feeling that people all have been privileged in some way that I haven't (usually involving beauty and social skills) and this enrages and depresses me. My first and worst tendency is to be "withdrawn" rather than "aggressive". I feel like the environment has nothing to do with me, rather than being subordinate to me...and I often forget I'm not watching TV.

I hope that's somewhat helpful, although I'm eager to hear [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] 's testimony, as I suspect she's a lot more 8ish than me.

It wasn't meant to be inclusive of *everyone*, just a way to get him started.

As for you...I don't know you very well, so the following is a very crude guess at best:

You have the longing of a 4 definitely down. You ask too many wistful, self-reflecting questions, to be an 8. While an 8 can and certainly will do that - as our Dj here - you lack their...innocence and cuteness about it. For you, this is a daily regime, not a ponderance you just happen to stumble about. It is definitely focused on you and your emotional state. You live here.

However. I'm going to guess you're likely male and your typical 4 fantasies probably resemble being an 8. You admire them and their qualities - like many of us 4s do - and it is something for you to strive for. Something you use to inspire you in coping with reality when you need to, and to help you escape reality when you don't feel you can cope. All 4s have their specific, unique fantasies of who they are secretly inside. Of how they want to be and how they can be in control and powerful in their very unique way. You may be doing so by looking at the 8 - or a stereotype persona you desire to embody that is an 8 - for those answers. I did the same with 9 and parts of 2 for a long time.

Then there is the smile explanation of course: you possibly have an 8 in your tritype.

/crude guess.

 

[Haven]

[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] most of what you say applies to 9w8 I think, especially this

I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of

I think the obsession with being taken advantage of is more 9 than 4 because of 9s connection to 6.

 

[Standuble]

Assuming I'm a four (and that others are like me) on the inside I sort of feel like an eight. To be precise: ever since I was a kid I found myself with a strong will (which was partly in opposition and partly in synergy with high emotional sensitivity) and I do not think I ever truly felt that my will could be denied. I was entirely at the mercy of it's whims and the outside world could only really act like triggers which changed or influenced its direction e.g. a situation caused me to wallow in emotion or envy but these were already part of the will. On reflection I don't think any external force has successfully been able to supplant it or destroy it - I think I alone through volition destroyed myself and rebuilt myself. The more the world pushes the more I resist. If the world stops pushing my will survives intact. If the world was to literally kill me I would die ultimately with my will intact.

The only issue is that my personality carries little to no influence, gravitas or authority in the world itself. It's sealed up inside and through a concoction of incompetence, laziness, indifference and romanticisation the world does not know about it. I wonder whether for an eight it's the other way around: that they are marshmallow surrounded by rock armour few can pierce.

 

[Elfboy]

One last thing.
Elfboy...again, with all due respect to well-thought out dichotomies...I doubt anyone who knows me would call me "delicate". Quiet, polite, even impressionable, perhaps...not delicate. Actually, I'd be offended if they did.
Hence my years of mistyping.

sorry, but I'm not changing my opinion

(PS--I'd be offended if they called me a silver back as well.)

I only compared a single trait to a silverback gorilla, not the entire type.

 

[kyuuei]

The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."

 

[Amargith]

The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."

Depends on the turf.

...and I'd be up to finding out

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."

It wouldn't even be close.

 

[Amargith]

It wouldn't even be close.

True

 

[kyuuei]

Depends on the turf.

...and I'd be up to finding out

It has to be on equal ground. No contests where we judge who is better at giving sexy sex advice to couples.

It wouldn't even be close.

I know!

True

He meant for me! Clearly..

 

[Amargith]

It has to be on equal ground. No contests where we judge who is better at giving sexy sex advice to couples.

I know!



He meant for me! Clearly..

As I said, it would depend on the battlefield. That's what I like about the 4 vs 8 dynamic - we cover each others asses. Im no match for an 8 doing their thing. But I'm more than confident in taking them on when doing my thing, no offence

 

[Standuble]

To be honest some of the 8's on here seem to be mentally (and supposedly) physically average. Nothing imposing about them. I reckon I could win a fight with one if I really, really wanted to (and if I didn't decide to chicken out part way through with the realisation that winning wouldn't better me in any way and/or just be a waste of time). I think any type could with sufficient motivation.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

This sounds like a stupid question

what's the difference between E4 and E8?

Both:
-are big on self expression
-both can numb themselves to pain
-both seek intensity
-both want to stand out
-both grow by learning moderation
-both are reactive

as far as I can tell the only real difference is that 4's are masochistic and 8's are sadistic. One likes to cause pain, the other likes to be in pain.

There seems to be a large influx on my website of INFJ's who claim they are 8's. And its starting to blow my mind. So I'm trying to understand what actually separates an INFJ 8 from an INFJ 4.

I was also going to say that 4's are idealistic... but so am I... I get extremely angry when I see people acting in such a way that would invalidate my belief that heaven still exists on earth.

INFJ enneagram 8...more than likely they are sixes mistyped. 6's can test as 8 often.

 

[small.wonder]

Assuming I'm a four (and that others are like me) on the inside I sort of feel like an eight. To be precise: ever since I was a kid I found myself with a strong will (which was partly in opposition and partly in synergy with high emotional sensitivity) and I do not think I ever truly felt that my will could be denied. I was entirely at the mercy of it's whims and the outside world could only really act like triggers which changed or influenced its direction e.g. a situation caused me to wallow in emotion or envy but these were already part of the will. On reflection I don't think any external force has successfully been able to supplant it or destroy it - I think I alone through volition destroyed myself and rebuilt myself. The more the world pushes the more I resist. If the world stops pushing my will survives intact. If the world was to literally kill me I would die ultimately with my will intact.

The only issue is that my personality carries little to no influence, gravitas or authority in the world itself. It's sealed up inside and through a concoction of incompetence, laziness, indifference and romanticisation the world does not know about it. I wonder whether for an eight it's the other way around: that they are marshmallow surrounded by rock armour few can pierce.

Absolutely, they are. 4 and 8 are often called the inverse of each other, 8 being stone on the outside and mushy softhearted on the inside. 4 on the other hand is authentic vulnerability on the outside and steel, long-suffering on the inside. 8 is intense and demanding in the external (physical/social) realm, and 4 in the internal (emotional realm).

 

[kyuuei]

Absolutely, they are. 4 and 8 are often called the inverse of each other, 8 being stone on the outside and mushy softhearted on the inside. 4 on the other hand is authentic vulnerability on the outside and steel, long-suffering on the inside. 8 is intense and demanding in the external (physical/social) realm, and 4 in the internal (emotional realm).

... So you're saying instead of fighting Amargith, I should team up with her and take over the world.

 

[small.wonder]

... So you're saying instead of fighting Amargith, I should team up with her and take over the world.

Precisely.

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

On PersonalityCafe, I've been using the "blog this post" function for a while. I just copied a bunch of blogs over to this blog. Some of the formatting might be off, and the posts are definitely NOT in the order they were created, but it'll get the idea across of how my mind works and how I envision myself as a 4. I can't speak for other 4s, and I have no doubt that the level of "relating to me" among 4s will vary. Anyone can feel free to comment, agree, disagree, relate, not relate, etc. Or use it as a reference of a mind of a specific 4 if you find it helpful.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/blogs/animal/

Here are two things I wrote in a thread called "What is 4's core?"
The first is about me, the second is more general.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/entry.php?b=2973

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/entry.php?b=2974

I'm not sure if there are any other posts specifically on that topic, though I did write this the day I changed my type label publicly:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/entry.php?b=2983


And this is a post from my recent typing thread, before I typed at 4, when it was under heavy consideration.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/entry.php?b=2975

 

[Animal]

The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."

Oh no no no.

Sadism (Naranjo's 8 description) is the act of shaming someone else, whereas Masochism (Naranjo's 4 description) is the act of shaming yourself, so that nobody else has the power to shame you. How can an 8 beat a 4 then? Masochist always has the power.

Regardless of the degree to which I do or don't fasten myself to Naranjo's descriptions, categories, and correlations, Life experience has shown me that 8s don't easily beat me. I've only been "out-witted/ out-maneuvered at life in general" by fellow 4s and matched by 7s.

Beating me at anything involving creativity or concepts would be difficult. If music is involved, you're dead meat.. the end.

If we're talking physical fights, I'm quite strong and physical. I had to beat a chronic illness and re-learn to walk after being told I might be crippled forever, and NOTHING was going to stop me. I can outlift men larger than my size at the gym and win fights with much taller men on "sheer crazy points" as my combat-oriented 1w2 friend likes to describe it. I am also a mean swimmer with tremendous breath control.

Admittedly, I think I remember reading that you were in the military? So physically, you might have a one-up on me. My type 8 friend is a multiple martial arts expert, and he can beat me at physical things and coach me, but I challenge & help him with other stuff, and we balance well. Physically, I'm no push-over, weakling or wimp. But 8s are usually invested in some physical expertise which gives them a one -up, whereas my expertise is in the creative realm. However - 4s are surrounded by competency types (3, 5 and line to 1) and very bent on our personal significance. So if there's a 4 invested in some physical arts, she could have a chance of kicking the ass of an equally invested 8; I don't see why not. I can kick the ass of a few 8s at hand-eye coordination stuff that I'm good at, like music or Super Mario. ;D

I lost my professional (by age 15) singing voice to a Chronic Illness which almost killed me at 16, which left me speaking in a whisper. I survived, thrived, continue to battle the illness with tons of expensive and complex medications, but look 10 years younger than my age, beat bigger people at physical feats, and sang lead on stage, leading, managing, promoting and booking my own band - & recorded my own original album - which I wrote, arranged, produced, and played multiple instruments on myself - still speaking in a whisper, and singing entirely through my ethereal whisper. I've got balls of steel, focus, confidence, and leadership skills... there's no question about it. How many 8s speak in a whisper and sing lead in their own rock band on stage?

Part of the reason I mistyped so many times is the whole "4s are weak" bit. It's beyond complete and utter bullshit. And it's not just me. My 4w5 friend kicked the ass of his 8 buddy (who was pretty badass himself) in physical and verbal fights, and musically... practically in his sleep.

And in case anyone hasn't noticed, SX4s can be quite shameless. Especially if they have narcissistic streaks from their id-fixes.

*giggle*

 

[Amargith]

... So you're saying instead of fighting Amargith, I should team up with her and take over the world.

*leans against the wall*


I'll keep them off balance and distracted while you take 'em out.

We'd be unstoppable together.