Fi and anger

[Z Buck McFate]

I curious about your ideal, when it comes to how you would choose someone presenting their anger to you (when it’s directed at you). I’ve written a bunch of questions- any/all answers are appreciated, even if only one question feels worth answering. FWIW: I’m not going to ask further questions or participate here (unless directly asked to) because I don’t want to inadvertently do what Fe does and invalidate feelings. I really just would like to hear the answers.


How important are these things:

• saying something right away, instead of taking some time to calm down first, even if it means some unnecessarily harsh things and unfair accusations will likely be said.
  
  
• waiting until they can have a rational/calm tone.
  
  
• waiting until they can present rational/calm content. [Iow: how upsetting is it to be accused of something that you would never do by someone you consider close- even if they keep a calm tone? Or even if it isn’t someone close- is it agitating or does it feel condescending to be ‘accused’ (for lack of a better word) of something that seems petty to you, even with a calm tone….does it feel like someone ‘should know better’ or ‘should have thought about what they’re saying first’?]
  
  
• if someone is very angry, would you prefer/would you mind if they went to a 2nd party to discuss it before coming to you, if it would help them get rid of the unnecessarily harsh/unfair content?
  
  
• is there anything important (that I missed in above points) about how you’d define a “respectful” approach to having anger presented to you?
  
  
• specifically, what sorts of things create ‘white noise’ for you in conflict? Maybe a better way of describing ‘white noise’ (it’s been discussed around here before) would be the feeling of urgency like a baby crying or a dog barking- just an urgent feeling, a distinct distraction that something needs attending to. [I get the feeling having someone say they don’t feel <whatever feeling> when it seems clear to you they do is among this, feel free to set me straight if this doesn’t feel correct.]

And similarly I guess, how hard is it for you to adhere to those^ things yourself? Do you find it difficult to wait to express anger? Do you actually have to put effort into holding back expressing it, or does it take more (maybe even far more) effort to express it?

Finally: in your experience, what is the most difficult part of that process (of expressing it yourself)? [e.g. Nailing down exactly what you’re feeling? Nailing down exactly why you’re feeling it? Finding the words to express it?]

 

[Fidelia]

I've got a couple of questions I'd like to add if it's okay.

- What feels harsher to you - an unfair comment on your actions or on your motivations? Do qualifying phrases from the other person like "it feels like..." make a difference, or does it still feel like a pejorative statement when someone says how your actions make them feel? What is a better way to go at it?

- Do you instinctively understand how to relate to other Fi users' anger, or is it individual in every case?

- Are you bothered by it when you feel someone is upset but doesn't express it right away? Does it feel like they are trying to lie to you in some way when they do so?

- What makes you feel that an issue between you and another person is resolved?

 

[Lady_X]

It feels strange to even put that sort of guideline to it. Feels like I need to control them and their expression.

I don't. I want truth. Truth of content and expression. If its urgent say it urgently. If you need calm and to gain perspective first. Do that.

All I require is truth and real expression.

 

[Fidelia]

What if truth changes minute by minute with their feelings? Is that easy to adjust to?

 

[prplchknz]

I have trouble controlling anger. what else should I say? I have a low level of anger simmering all the time.

 

[Standuble]

I really want to answer these but I'm too tired and will think about answering tomorrow. My first impression is that any answers are situation based and don't really resonate with me in a meaningful way. I'll guess I'll sleep on it.

Anger is the instrument of inferior Te. I don't think I've ever been legitimately cross or angry without utilising it. If Te isn't online and ready to strike then it feels that my anger lacks substance - its essentially not a big enough deal in those situations.

 

[Lady_X]

What if truth changes minute by minute with their feelings? Is that easy to adjust to?

yes...i operate from a place of accepting responsibility for my own emotional responses and don't need someone to manage them for me.

 

[Fidelia]

Would you want someone to keep updating you with the current truth? (I realize these questions sound insane to you, but it's such a foreign way of going at it for me, that I just need to be sure that up is down and black is white etc, rather than overassuming). I want to have a chance to discuss things with people before they are irrevocable, but I think I'd find it upsetting if they told me something about how they felt about me, and then an hour or two later it changed. I guess that's probably because I would assume they were asking me to change for them, whereas you as a Fi user would be less likely to expect that and therefore less likely to read that into anything...

 

[greenfairy]

Anger is the instrument of inferior Te. I don't think I've ever been legitimately cross or angry without utilising it. If Te isn't online and ready to strike then it feels that my anger lacks substance - its essentially not a big enough deal in those situations.

Do you think the inferior function always shapes anger or the expression of it?

I know I'm not an Fi user, but I'm getting a lot better at not doing those things listed in the questions and just validating feels in relation to situations, like reactions to specific events. I think hanging around FP's has helped a lot with this. So my question for the Fi users is, is that kind of how you operate, just deciding how things affect you and accepting that others are affected by things and how?

 

[Lady_X]

Would you want someone to keep updating you with the current truth? (I realize these questions sound insane to you, but it's such a foreign way of going at it for me, that I just need to be sure that up is down and black is white etc, rather than overassuming). I want to have a chance to discuss things with people before they are irrevocable, but I think I'd find it upsetting if they told me something about how they felt about me, and then an hour or two later it changed. I guess that's probably because I would assume they were asking me to change for them, whereas you as a Fi user would be less likely to expect that and therefore less likely to read that into anything...

it would feel wiser imo to say look...right now i can't stand you. then to say i can't stand you.

i appreciate people not saying things that sound definite unless they are...but i can adjust to anothers way also. however there will likely be more left over hurt with that approach.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Do you think the inferior function always shapes anger or the expression of it?

I think it is possible that it might work this way.... I'm not familiar with enough different types to conclude this. Do you think it does this for you?

 

[greenfairy]

I think it is possible that it might work this way.... I'm not familiar with enough different types to conclude this. Do you think it does this for you?

Well when I'm angry I notice a definite Fe flavor as opposed to Te, so that was a major point in favor of INTP; but I can see inferior Se with it too now that I'm familiar with it. I don't have enough experience with observing all of the inferior functions to see how they all manifest. So I conclude that it is a feeling function plus the inferior, and I'm curious as to what other people think about it. Obviously the feeling function has to do with feelings and their expression, but the inferior has associations as well.

 

[WALMART]

Well when I'm angry I notice a definite Fe flavor as opposed to Te, so that was a major point in favor of INTP; but I can see inferior Se with it too now that I'm familiar with it. I don't have enough experience with observing all of the inferior functions to see how they all manifest. So I conclude that it is a feeling function plus the inferior, and I'm curious as to what other people think about it. Obviously the feeling function has to do with feelings and their expression, but the inferior has associations as well.

What does inferior Se denote?

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I'm not sure how that would materialize. What have you seen?

 

[EJCC]

I'm never sure, with these threads, whether "Fi users" is implied to mean "FPs", but in case Fi-inferior input would be useful, here it is.

I'm on my phone, so here it is sans quoting:

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]

- There is no doubt in my mind that I would prefer rational content over rational tone -- and fairness above all else. I'd rather that settling the grievance be: "I was/am angry because you did this action" -- and if part of their anger comes from a perceived perspective I was coming from, I'd rather that they ask me what motivated my action -- rather than assuming one way or another.

- Unless they are spreading lies about me, then who they consult in advance of talking to me is their business. I'd rather not know about it.

- Since I do tend to be so direct, and since I try incredibly hard to be fair even when I'm angry, "white noise" comes from people being indirect and/or unfair. I tend to assume
1) that they're being 100% honest and mean everything they say,
2) that they'll feel identically when they've calmed down, and
3) that they're probably MUCH angrier than they actually are, because "if I were acting that way..."
I've read elsewhere on the forum that STJs can react apocalyptically when people are mad at them, and if that's the case, then my motivations likely apply to many of them as well.

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]

- Probably unfair claims about motivation. They both bother me though.

- I don't instinctively know how to handle other Fi-users' anger, because sometimes they say horrible, petty things just to make themselves feel better in the moment -- something I never, EVER do. If I accidentally lash out when I'm mad, it's in the form of a direct comment spoken angrily. No extra frills added for the sake of extra hurt. (If I sound resentful about it, it's because I've been on the wrong end of it -- from TJs, even.)

- It bothers me when people tell me they're mad and refuse to tell me why until they've calmed down. I'd rather they wait to tell me they're mad until they've calmed down. I don't want to sit there and stress about the lack of information/closure for any longer than necessary -- I want the time between being made aware of the issue and resolving the issue to be as short as possible. (See the "apocalyptic" talk above for why that would bother me.)

- I don't care that much about moment-to-moment "truths" -- that's like sharing every single feeling that comes into your mind, as soon as it shows itself, which doesn't seem even remotely constructive. The truths that matter in these instances are the ones that will last, or that you think are likely to last. Yes, you're angry now, but how serious is it? Will some of it pass naturally? What's causing the anger? How can you resolve it constructively? What can be fixed with talking, and what must be healed with time?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

yes...i operate from a place of accepting responsibility for my own emotional responses and don't need someone to manage them for me.

I know I said I wouldn't participate, and after this I'll stop 'for real this time'- but is this how the op comes across, like it's asking about managing someone else's emotional response?

[Because the intention was to ask what sorts of interaction Fi types personally need in conflict to feel respected.]


eta: and [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], thank you- I am actually wondering about ALL Fi types.

 

[Lady_X]

I know I said I wouldn't participate, and after this I'll stop 'for real this time'- but is this how the op comes across, like it's asking about managing someone else's emotional response?

[Because the intention was to ask what sorts of interaction Fi types personally need in conflict to feel respected.]


eta: and [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], thank you- I am actually wondering about ALL Fi types.

that wasn't said in judgement of the op. was just saying that i can handle whatever this persons method is.

that is not to say that if i feel someones being disrespectful that i won't then say that.

it's all so very situational that it's hard to give clear answers.

 

[Stansmith]

I don't express anger, and don't know how to handle it from others, nor have I ever had anyone who's seen me as significant enough to express their anger or frustration towards.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well when I'm angry I notice a definite Fe flavor as opposed to Te, so that was a major point in favor of INTP; but I can see inferior Se with it too now that I'm familiar with it. I don't have enough experience with observing all of the inferior functions to see how they all manifest. So I conclude that it is a feeling function plus the inferior, and I'm curious as to what other people think about it. Obviously the feeling function has to do with feelings and their expression, but the inferior has associations as well.

Well, yeah. When I'm angry, there's usually a sense of injustice present somewhre.

Though irritation is a different beast.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

that wasn't said in judgement of the op. was just saying that i can handle whatever this persons method is.

Can I yell at you? Honest question.