[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Eilonwy]

Because I'm fairly new here I want to say that I'm asking this question in all sincerity, and not in a derogatory way, because I'm not sure how it's going to come across. Do ESTJs (and ESFJs for that matter) have a hard time taking time off to relax? Is leisure a dirty word? Do you feel you're being lazy if you're not doing something?

 

[EJCC]

Because I'm fairly new here I want to say that I'm asking this question in all sincerity, and not in a derogatory way, because I'm not sure how it's going to come across. Do ESTJs (and ESFJs for that matter) have a hard time taking time off to relax? Is leisure a dirty word? Do you feel you're being lazy if you're not doing something?

Welcome! Both to the forum (if I haven't said so already), and to the thread. Pull up a chair by the fire, stay awhile.

Also -- that wasn't derogatory at all. I love it when INFJs overestimate like that. It's why you guys balance me out so well! My INFJ mom is always asking me to proofread her "angry emails" to coworkers and businesses, and I always end up telling her that firstly, her email isn't angry, and secondly, she could get angrier if she wanted. Whereas if I didn't get the INFJs in my life to proofread my angry emails before I sent them, I could start a war.

To answer your question, though: I think ESTJs have a tendency to want everything they do to fulfill some purpose and be "productive" and not a "waste of time". But whether or not ESTJs are able to relax depends on what they consider "productive". For example, I'm totally comfortable just hanging out and playing video games all day if I'm doing that with friends and I had planned to do that -- because doing stuff with my friends is an obligation and it's required so it's not a waste of time. But if other ESTJs are like me, most of their hobbies are doing things that have some practical use. e.g. one of the main reasons I've stayed on the forum this long was because I wanted to help people out. Also, I love DIY and knitting and decorating -- because they're artistic outlets and they're very useful and impressive and there's just something about learning a craft, you know? Something about getting good at doing things with your own hands. The self-suffiency ideal has a lot of appeal to me.

I don't reconcile shit. The traditional female role can fuck straight off.

Best quote ever. You rock.

I wouldn't say I've "accepted" a traditional gender role, because that sounds like there is a degree of reluctancy attached to it. Rather, I really enjoy the "female role" of things like being in the kitchen. Also I am VERY hospitable by nature- not a people-pleaser- but I get a bit of validation out of hosting/serving/hospitality and that just happens to line up with society's woman-role...

Some dude once made a quip about making him a sandwich or some bullshit and I'm like, "Welp, you're honestly shootin blanks with the kitchen jokes because I love cooking and being in the kitchen.... and had you not been a dickface and ordered me around like that, I'd be in there now making you something."

So interesting for a more "traditional" ESTJ to be on the forum now! This is great! There are so few ESTJs on the forum, and the guys almost never post, and the girls (i.e. me and sui generis) agree on pretty much everything So hooray for new values and opinions to balance us out!

I have a question for you regarding gender roles (trying to put myself in your shoes and see where you're coming from): Did you choose your "gender role", that you were talking about? Or is it more that you just happen to have similar interests -- i.e. cooking, hospitality -- to the role?

I ask because I have many stereotypically feminine interests as well -- but I tend to get resentful if people point out how stereotypically female they are. For example, cooking: Like I was saying earlier about self-sufficiency, just because I really like cooking, doesn't mean I'm necessarily okay with guys being totally helpless and expecting me to cook for them. Not only is there a little sexism in that behavior, but also entitled laziness -- which is something that, as an ESTJ, I naturally have trouble with.

But I digress. I guess I was just wondering if you associate anything negative with gender roles, and what you think of male expectations of gender roles?

 

[feisty]

To answer your question, though: I think ESTJs have a tendency to want everything they do to fulfill some purpose and be "productive" and not a "waste of time". But whether or not ESTJs are able to relax depends on what they consider "productive". For example, I'm totally comfortable just hanging out and playing video games all day if I'm doing that with friends and I had planned to do that -- because doing stuff with my friends is an obligation and it's required so it's not a waste of time. But if other ESTJs are like me, most of their hobbies are doing things that have some practical use.

YEA! I am someone who I don't like to sleep in because I feel as if I am wasting time. Even if I have nothing to do that day, I still feel as if I am wasting time. HOWEVER, say I had scheduled a day specifically for "wasting time" I would have no problem. I guess you could say that as long as I've [in essence] tricked myself into thinking that what I'm doing isn't in fact "wasting" time, I'm okay with it.... otherwise it drives me nuts. I can relax plenty... at designated hours.

I have a question for you regarding gender roles (trying to put myself in your shoes and see where you're coming from): Did you choose your "gender role", that you were talking about? Or is it more that you just happen to have similar interests -- i.e. cooking, hospitality -- to the role?

I ask because I have many stereotypically feminine interests as well -- but I tend to get resentful if people point out how stereotypically female they are. For example, cooking: Like I was saying earlier about self-sufficiency, just because I really like cooking, doesn't mean I'm necessarily okay with guys being totally helpless and expecting me to cook for them. Not only is there a little sexism in that behavior, but also entitled laziness -- which is something that, as an ESTJ, I naturally have trouble with.

But I digress. I guess I was just wondering if you associate anything negative with gender roles, and what you think of male expectations of gender roles?

Haha, in my last response, I was trying to basically get at the notion that I do just *happen* to enjoy feminine-role past times. Like you, I don't need someone to say "Yea, get in the kitchen and make me a sammich"..... because, a) Fuck you, now you can make yer own damn sandwich, and b) I don't feel like there are necessarily male/female roles anymore... people can like what they like without having to nod to society's traditional molds for us.

Having someone "expect" anything out of me just makes me mad. If I'm in a relationship with someone, we can carve out our own roles based on what we enjoy or what we are good at. I'm not so great with numbers, so it'd be best if whoever I was with managed finances... unless they were worse with them than I am. But for someone to expect that the man handle the money and the woman sit by and wait for handouts is stupid. I hear about people who dole out money to the wives and I'm like "Ahahahahaha hilarious, no I'll get money when I want it, kthnx.

Working is another big thing.... as great as being a "stay at home mom" sounds, I can't fathom it because (back to having to do something) I have goals that don't allow for that. When I get my doctorate, I will have been in school for 8 years and, next to childbirth, I will wholeheartedly wager that this is the most trying and stressful 8 years of my life. So, I will have to work a very long time to justify all the blood sweat and tears that I've put into my career. I would not take kindly to any suggestion that I just put that on hold to have a kid and start a family... if I do start a family, it will be amongst my career. That's how my mom did it, and I turned out just fine.

 

[EJCC]

YEA! I am someone who I don't like to sleep in because I feel as if I am wasting time. Even if I have nothing to do that day, I still feel as if I am wasting time. HOWEVER, say I had scheduled a day specifically for "wasting time" I would have no problem. I guess you could say that as long as I've [in essence] tricked myself into thinking that what I'm doing isn't in fact "wasting" time, I'm okay with it.... otherwise it drives me nuts. I can relax plenty... at designated hours.

Totally. I relate to all of this. I can be as spontaneous as the most spontaneous people out there, as long as I've scheduled my spontaneity.
I hadn't thought of it as a trick, but it totally is. Good observation/introspection.

Haha, in my last response, I was trying to basically get at the notion that I do just *happen* to enjoy feminine-role past times. Like you, I don't need someone to say "Yea, get in the kitchen and make me a sammich"..... because, a) Fuck you, now you can make yer own damn sandwich, and b) I don't feel like there are necessarily male/female roles anymore... people can like what they like without having to nod to society's traditional molds for us.

I lol'd at part a) and I definitely agree with most of this. Although there are still guys out there who think gender roles exist... and based on the lack of cooking and cleaning ability of a lot of guys I know, I can't help but wonder if they just expect women to clean up after them? I don't want to have to teach boyfriends how to clean up after themselves. That's not my job.

Having someone "expect" anything out of me just makes me mad. If I'm in a relationship with someone, we can carve out our own roles based on what we enjoy or what we are good at. I'm not so great with numbers, so it'd be best if whoever I was with managed finances... unless they were worse with them than I am. But for someone to expect that the man handle the money and the woman sit by and wait for handouts is stupid.

!! Totally! It's like: I'm a mature adult, I don't need an allowance from you. And I completely agree with you about division of chores/etc, and about expectations -- well, sometimes. As long as those expectations are for good reason, I'm fine, i.e. if they mesh well with my expectations of myself. Otherwise, gtfo, you have no right to boss me around.

 

[Halla74]

Where can an aspiring knit-o-maniac re-learn the basics of the craft?
Is there a good online resource you know of, or do I have to put an ad in the classifieds for lessons?
It's getting cold and my kids need bad ass hats.

I hope you are well!



-Alex

 

[EJCC]

Where can an aspiring knit-o-maniac re-learn the basics of the craft?
Is there a good online resource you know of, or do I have to put an ad in the classifieds for lessons?
It's getting cold and my kids need bad ass hats.

I hope you are well!



-Alex

You are so cool. The fact that you want to make hats for your kids is just the best thing.

I wish I could tell you to just learn from me, but there's the geography problem. <-- which does not make me happy. And I can't tell you to learn the way I did, because I learned from a book and learning from books is a bad idea because the illustrations are confusing... so I ended up going into a yarn store and kind of having to re-learn how to do the knit and purl stitches without twisting everything around.

So I'd say that the best way to re-learn how to knit without having to pay would be YouTubing some knitting tutorials. Making sure that they have a particular angle of the person's hands knitting that looks like you're knitting too... if that makes sense. I'll look up some good ones and post them here for you, and let me know if they help. Even if I can't teach you how to knit myself, I'll make sure the videos have the EJCC Seal of Approval.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]: I'm not sure how much you know re: knitting but I'm gonna give the whole spiel anyway so if I sound like I'm underestimating your knitting ability then I apologize in advance.

Here is...​

EJCC's Guide to Getting Into Knitting​

First thing you wanna do: Buy some yarn and needles!
Places like Michael's or JoAnn Fabrics are great for cheap stuff -- but you get MUCH better service if you go to a local yarn store, where the people who work there are expert knitters and probably knit all the display/sample sweaters/scarves/etc themselves.
I'd recommend either buying a combination of

Worsted Weight Yarn and Size 8 needles, or
Bulky Yarn and Size 10 or 11 needles.​

You're gonna be making hats, so I'd suggest that you buy circular needles -- and plastic needles are the best option for beginners, since metal needles tend to slip out (which could mean undoing a lot of your work), and wood needles are more expensive.
Acrylic yarn = also cheaper. Red Heart Super Saver is great for worsted weight yarn, if that's the kind you decide to get.

Next thing: Find a pattern!
You may be tempted to make your own pattern right from the start -- or at least, to use a pattern with a different yarn or needle size than recommended -- but I've got to discourage that, not just as an ESTJ but as a knitter. There's a reason why they say that you learn the rules so you can break them. One of my first patterns, I made with too many stitches, and the scarf ended up being both shorter and wider than it was supposed to and is practically unwearable as a result.
So if you want to find free patterns, I highly recommend getting a Ravelry account. Ravelry is technically a knitting social networking site, but a lot of people use it just for the patterns or -- if you're like my dad -- just to admire everyone's work, in a similar way to admiring people's shops on Etsy without buying anything. Once you have an account, there are literally tens of thousands of free patterns at your disposal, and there's a fantastic search engine within the site where you can search by yarn size, needle size, keyword, pattern difficulty, etc.

Final task: Knitting the damn thing!
There are two basic ways to knit: Continental knitting and English knitting. I highly recommend trying them both out and seeing which one you're most comfortable with. Most people seem to learn English style, but I know Continental and I like it better not just because it's more comfortable but because it's -- no exaggeration -- about five times faster.
This video series on knitting English style seems pretty good (i.e. knittingtipsbyjudy):
[YOUTUBE="APSqlPSz1Eo"]Casting On: English Style[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE="4xho-iQdGNE"]Knit Stitch: English Style[/YOUTUBE]
And these are pretty good for Continental style (I've used some of these videos for more advanced techniques before):
[YOUTUBE="75v-grTENJ4"]Casting On: Continental Style[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE="_9XImtoQmZ8"]Knit Stitch: Continental Style[/YOUTUBE]

And that's the gist!

Let me know if you have more questions!

 

[Halla74]

[MENTION=6109]
SUPER-AMAZING-BADASS-MEGA-AWESOME POST by EJCC!!!

Wowzers!
That's the most comprehensive, amazing crash course on kintting in history!
Thank you SO much.

I shall send you one of my creations once I get my skillz in order; it's the least I can do.

YOU are AWESOME.



-Alex

 

[feisty]

I hadn't thought of it as a trick, but it totally is. Good observation/introspection.

I also have to "trick" myself into thinking exercise is fun and not at all exercise like (ie: taking various classes, dancing or merriment of the ass-shaking variety, and my persistent very-serious treadmill allergy.)

Although there are still guys out there who think gender roles exist... and based on the lack of cooking and cleaning ability of a lot of guys I know, I can't help but wonder if they just expect women to clean up after them? I don't want to have to teach boyfriends how to clean up after themselves. That's not my job.

I'm with you sistah, but unfortunately, guys are like that. I have [not-so] fond elementary childhood memories of waking up on Saturday mornings to the sounds of vacuuming and knowing that it was cleaning day, where I did nothing but chores til the house was clean- by my mom's standards. I was made to do laundry and fold since I was about 7 years old. At around age 9 my mom, on a punishment whim, made me learn to iron and subsequently added that to my regular list of chores. So from a young age I knew what it was to take care of the house and I also had been taught that the children help the parents, not the other way around.

However, I recently got out of a 5-year relationship. in which he was not taught such principles... I specifically remember an instance in which he literally told me he didn't know how to wash a dish. I had given him a rag and a sink full of hot water and dishes and you would have thought I'd set him down to a table of differential calculus problems and rubiks cubes. You can imagine my sympathy and ensuing "helpful" instructions of how to wash dishes... the thing I'm getting at is that it wasn't a matter of him being lazy, or entitled, or exerting his masculinity over me. He didn't from the beginning "expect" me to do those things for him (clean up, do dishes/laundry.. things his mother did), its just that he wasn't raised to have to do that himself. Once he realized that growing up and being a mature responsible adult meant that you do things other mature, responsible adults do (laundry, dishes, general tidying up), he started to adopt those qualities. The next one I date will certainly know how to do that himself, however I think there is a certain level of teaching that goes along with most all men... they just don't think like us. And that is a whole different debate.

And I completely agree with you about division of chores/etc, and about expectations -- well, sometimes. As long as those expectations are for good reason, I'm fine, i.e. if they mesh well with my expectations of myself. Otherwise, gtfo, you have no right to boss me around.

I have a tattoo, on the upper part of my derriere, that is a cupcake with brass knuckles stuck in the frosting. It pretty much symbolizes my feelings and dealings on people bossing me around, as well as my level of shit-taking.

 

[SilkRoad]

I just wanted to say: I'm quite entertained by the way you guys are coming across almost like badass ESTPs, but very...responsible, organized, serious-minded badass ESTPS.

 

[feisty]

I just wanted to say: I'm quite entertained by the way you guys are coming across almost like badass ESTPs, but very...responsible, organized, serious-minded badass ESTPS.

Por quoi??

Just wondering.

 

[SilkRoad]

Por quoi??

Just wondering.

The cupcake/brass knuckles tattoo, the fact that you enjoy cooking but the guy can get the hell out of your kitchen if he makes any assumptions, etc... It was meant as a compliment, btw.

 

[Anew Leaf]

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]: I'm not sure how much you know re: knitting but I'm gonna give the whole spiel anyway so if I sound like I'm underestimating your knitting ability then I apologize in advance.

Here is...​

EJCC's Guide to Getting Into Knitting​

First thing you wanna do: Buy some yarn and needles!
Places like Michael's or JoAnn Fabrics are great for cheap stuff -- but you get MUCH better service if you go to a local yarn store, where the people who work there are expert knitters and probably knit all the display/sample sweaters/scarves/etc themselves.
I'd recommend either buying a combination of

Worsted Weight Yarn and Size 8 needles, or
Bulky Yarn and Size 10 or 11 needles.​

You're gonna be making hats, so I'd suggest that you buy circular needles -- and plastic needles are the best option for beginners, since metal needles tend to slip out (which could mean undoing a lot of your work), and wood needles are more expensive.
Acrylic yarn = also cheaper. Red Heart Super Saver is great for worsted weight yarn, if that's the kind you decide to get.

Next thing: Find a pattern!
You may be tempted to make your own pattern right from the start -- or at least, to use a pattern with a different yarn or needle size than recommended -- but I've got to discourage that, not just as an ESTJ but as a knitter. There's a reason why they say that you learn the rules so you can break them. One of my first patterns, I made with too many stitches, and the scarf ended up being both shorter and wider than it was supposed to and is practically unwearable as a result.
So if you want to find free patterns, I highly recommend getting a Ravelry account. Ravelry is technically a knitting social networking site, but a lot of people use it just for the patterns or -- if you're like my dad -- just to admire everyone's work, in a similar way to admiring people's shops on Etsy without buying anything. Once you have an account, there are literally tens of thousands of free patterns at your disposal, and there's a fantastic search engine within the site where you can search by yarn size, needle size, keyword, pattern difficulty, etc.

Final task: Knitting the damn thing!
There are two basic ways to knit: Continental knitting and English knitting. I highly recommend trying them both out and seeing which one you're most comfortable with. Most people seem to learn English style, but I know Continental and I like it better not just because it's more comfortable but because it's -- no exaggeration -- about five times faster.
This video series on knitting English style seems pretty good (i.e. knittingtipsbyjudy):
[YOUTUBE="APSqlPSz1Eo"]Casting On: English Style[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE="4xho-iQdGNE"]Knit Stitch: English Style[/YOUTUBE]
And these are pretty good for Continental style (I've used some of these videos for more advanced techniques before):
[YOUTUBE="75v-grTENJ4"]Casting On: Continental Style[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE="_9XImtoQmZ8"]Knit Stitch: Continental Style[/YOUTUBE]

And that's the gist!

Let me know if you have more questions!

Congratulations! You have just won the internet!



P.S. If I baked you a pie, what flavor would you like?

 

[feisty]

The cupcake/brass knuckles tattoo, the fact that you enjoy cooking but the guy can get the hell out of your kitchen if he makes any assumptions, etc... It was meant as a compliment, btw.

Haha okay I see. I didn't take it as anything less I just wondered who you were referring to... and thank you

 

[SilkRoad]

Haha okay I see. I didn't take it as anything less I just wondered who you were referring to... and thank you

Along those lines; do you guys (ESTJs) feel a kinship with ESTPs, in general? Or not?

In many respects I would think you'd be soooo different. But sometimes I seem to see odd similarities popping out. I've also heard it said that especially young ESTJs who are trying things out could come across very ESTP. (Although I wonder if that might not be the case for some other types too...)

 

[Giggly]

ESTJ, ESTP and ENTJ have this leadership type quality to them, even though I know some of them don't always want to be that or mean to convey that.

 

[EJCC]

Congratulations! You have just won the internet!

I'm not sure if I was THAT impressive... but thanks.

P.S. If I baked you a pie, what flavor would you like?

Pumpkin! I've been craving it ever since the leaves started turning.

Along those lines; do you guys (ESTJs) feel a kinship with ESTPs, in general? Or not?

In many respects I would think you'd be soooo different. But sometimes I seem to see odd similarities popping out. I've also heard it said that especially young ESTJs who are trying things out could come across very ESTP. (Although I wonder if that might not be the case for some other types too...)

I think they can seem very similar, depending on the people -- for example, when I'm in a particularly adventurous/brash/excitable mood I might come across as that? And when, as you saw on this thread, I feel like people are unjustly trying to force me to be or act a certain way, my resistance may come across as ESTP (or as type 8, which I often mistype as).

ESTJ, ESTP and ENTJ have this leadership type quality to them, even though I know some of them don't always want to be that or mean to convey that.

I see that in common too, yeah. And I don't think we mean for it to be a leadership quality, like you said. We just exude this air of complete certainty, that when people aren't certain then they defer to us. For example, sometimes people assume that I'm an expert at things when I'm not. It can be awkward to tell them "I'm just thinking out loud! Really! I have no idea if anything I just said is true!!"

 

[SilkRoad]

I see that in common too, yeah. And I don't think we mean for it to be a leadership quality, like you said. We just exude this air of complete certainty, that when people aren't certain then they defer to us. For example, sometimes people assume that I'm an expert at things when I'm not. It can be awkward to tell them "I'm just thinking out loud! Really! I have no idea if anything I just said is true!!"

Haha, has this ever gotten you into any kind of trouble?

Actually, around someone like me it could be awkward, I admit. Well, not with most things...but if it's something that impacts me or I deeply care about, and then it turns out to be more thinking aloud than certainty, I can get a bit

 

[EJCC]

Haha, has this ever gotten you into any kind of trouble?

Not sure! But if anyone ever got into a bad situation because of advice I gave on this thread, then that would be a pretty good example!

Actually, around someone like me it could be awkward, I admit. Well, not with most things...but if it's something that impacts me or I deeply care about, and then it turns out to be more thinking aloud than certainty, I can get a bit

And your reaction would be completely justified. I always get embarrassed when that happens -- and I backpedal very very fast! Kind of like what a certain member who dubs himself the Prince of Light tends to do all the time Tends to happen when you don't Si before you speak and your Ne talks for you!

 

[SilkRoad]

I haven't noticed you having to backpedal much so far

On the whole, would you say that you guys tend to do more saying what you mean long-term/choosing your words carefully and thinking about them before you speak; or more thinking aloud, somewhat making it up as you go along? Or does that vary quite a bit from individual ESTJ to individual?