[INFP] (patiently) ask an INFP!!1

[nolla]

I purposely inserted a bunch of moral dilemmas to see how/if Fi can undermine the ability to come up with an ''efficient'' solution. I really like INFPs but I'm still trying to understand Fi.

Do moral dilemmas need efficient solutions? Efficient from which point of view? Life sentence is an efficient solution to serial killers when the objective is to keep them from killing citizens. It is not efficient if you consider the cost or if the objective is to cure the individual.

 

[Viridian]

Questions:

1) Are you cognizant and accepting of what you really want? Moreso than FJs?

2) Have you ever had issues with guilt and/or shame?

3) How hesitant are you about voicing your opinions? Why?

4) Do you desire to win the approval of others?

Have a red panda, buddies!

 

[Rasofy]

Do moral dilemmas need efficient solutions? Efficient from which point of view?

That's why i said ''efficient'', you can't please everybody in those situations. ''Efficient'', in my view, would be the way that the expectancy of innocent people killed is minimal, a proper punishment is ensured, and people don't have to fund the maintenance of a parasite.

Life sentence is an efficient solution to serial killers when the objective is to keep them from killing citizens. It is not efficient if you consider the cost or if the objective is to cure the individual.

Well, but something must be done about them, right? I also take in consideration that life in prison can be worse than death, but it's more of a rationalization to justify the means.
I'm just exposing my opinions, feel free to disagree. I hope you guys and gals aren't taking this personal, this is just a simulation.

 

[Minute_Maid]

under what circumstances will an infp break their value system?

 

[Anew Leaf]

Hey INFPs. Imagine you are a leader and you have to decide the destiny of a serial killer. He killed more than 30 people and he had pleasure doing that.
Do you think he should remain alive, serving a life sentence? Does he have the right to kill as much as he can and remain alive, sponsored by the society for the rest of his life?

This is a tough one. Very sneaky little INTP.

I personally don't believe we as humans have a right to take another human's life. However, if I am in a leadership position then that can potentially throw some twigs into the spokes of my Fi-cycle. Lol, man my Fi REALLY doesn't want to be pinned down on an actual opinion with this, but I will make her do it just the same.

So to answer the first question: Should remain alive? After 30 people? My Innermost Fi says "yes", but the practicality of the other functions say "no." We can all thank Spock for his classic "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Final answer: no.

Do you think he should have another chance in the future, even if that means putting people in danger?

Ideally yes it would be awesome to give everyone a second chance in life. But unless psychology is able to leap forward and actually reprogram someone (which opens up a whole other can of ethical worms)... There is no way someone who has killed 30 people will be able to become a functional and positive member of society again. I am not willing to risk the ruination of countless other lives for one person who has already made bad choices.

Do you consider that he never asked to be born a psychopath ?

The people he murdered didn't ask to be murdered either.


In summation, there is a 34% chance I would execute this person, 66% chance I would allow them to live in a prison for the remainder of their days. Things that would sway judgement in either case would be details on the cases. Were these people killed quickly? Or were their deaths dragged out? Etc.

I have far more "sympathy" for people who kill someone else in the heat of the moment. The guy who comes home and finds his wife in bed with someone else - he snaps - kills them -- That I can understand. The guy who stalks his carefully chosen victim for 6 months, then spends 5 days slowly peeling her skin off... I don't get that at all.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Questions:

1) Are you cognizant and accepting of what you really want? Moreso than FJs?

2) Have you ever had issues with guilt and/or shame?

3) How hesitant are you about voicing your opinions? Why?

4) Do you desire to win the approval of others?

Have a red panda, buddies!

1- Haha, I am NOW. I have spent most of my life not knowing what I want out of life. It took a lot of uphill battles, backsliding, and in the end it took some tough times for me to finally figure it all out. The biggest changes have come from the past 2 years of my life. I had to clean figure out what the most important things in my life are, and then I had to learn how to show my true self to people. I always thought I had to "find" myself... Oh life will be awesome if I could just FIND myself. No. The truth of it all is that I had to just BE myself. All other things just fall into place. I know what I want from life now, and I am no longer afraid to go for those things.

2- Lol. I grew up Catholic... Guilt and shame I know them well. There are a lot of dumb things I have done in my life, and I used to beat myself up about them all of the time. One of the biggest changes I've made in my life is learning to let go of things. It's all about choice in the end, and I choose to not dwell on these issues anymore. They helped make me who I am today, for better or for worse, but I am no longer letting them affect my future. It is very tough to not 'go there" with these two emotions, because it's so easy to simply blame myself on things and internalize them. One thing I have learned is that it is far easier to say "no" to myself, than to other people.

3- I have gotten more vocal over the years, but it occasionally still tough.

For issues that are very personal to me:
For me it's because Fi is such an internal process... that it can be very difficult/feel impossible to adequately explain to someone else. I dislike having external forces influence what I have come up with internally. I have found that I have an easier time with this if I am able to build the "road" up slowly with someone. Basically I will test the water and see how they react to me voicing an opinion. If all seems fine, then I will continue onward building up my trust with them as we go. This is especially important in relationships because it is such a natural instinct for me to withdraw and want to handle something on my own. However, I know that that will not help our relationship if I do that... so I work hard at counteracting this instinct as much as possible. Being with someone who has patience for this is huge. Once achieved the reward is a good relationship with me.

For other issues:
I have no problem with telling people my opinion. I may hold off if I think my opinion will offend/hurt someone. But if I get asked for my honest opinion on something... the odds are that they will get just that!

4- Um.... yes and no. The majority of humanity - pass... The select few that I deeply care about? Definitely is a factor to some extent. In the end I still have to simply be myself though. But I do want to make my friends and family proud of me and the person that I am. I want to reflect back the love and support they have given me, by me being more loving and supportive.

 

[Anew Leaf]

under what circumstances will an infp break their value system?

Extremely unlikely circumstances on par with a black hole spontaneously erupting next to Mars.

I have winnowed down my value system to the key aspects that mean the most to me. They are the ones that feel the purest and truest to me. If I am to be the best me I can be... I have to follow this system because it's the best part of me. I have compromised my value system countless times in the past and the end result has been...............not good*.


*deletes giant emo melodramatic paragraph about souls dying, etc.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Do moral dilemmas need efficient solutions? Efficient from which point of view? Life sentence is an efficient solution to serial killers when the objective is to keep them from killing citizens. It is not efficient if you consider the cost or if the objective is to cure the individual.

I think these dilemmas are when we need to hire an XNTJ consultant and delegate the decision making to them for awhile.

 

[Asterion]

Do you connect to other people with ease?

Do you act/express how you feel about others without awkwardness?

 

[Eckhart]

Do you connect to other people with ease?

Do you act/express how you feel about others without awkwardness?

A clear no to both questions, those two things are very difficult issues for me in my life situation.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Do you connect to other people with ease?

Do you act/express how you feel about others without awkwardness?

1- I can now. Gee, all it took was being myself! My natural instinct is to be quiet and listen and observe. But in some situations I know that what I really need to be doing is to talk to other people and interact. I like making people feel comfortable around me so I try to figure out what that might be. Some quieter people need me to push them a bit by me being more extraverted... and other quiet people just like the fact that I can sit in silence for hours at a time.

2- Ugh... lol... no. I feel like I am the Queen of Awkwardness when it comes to expressing my feelings to someone initially. I can read people very well, but when I need to read someone in relation to myself... the whole system falls apart.

Once I get over the initial expressing... and the other person doesn't freak out on me, or withdraw, or say "oh... that's.... nice......" Then I am just fine with expressing how I feel. It's just that initial expression that is so difficult and awkward.

If I get asked by someone "how do you feel about me?" I will be very careful in responding to that person, and to a lot of Fe-users/doms... the response can be "disappointing" to them.

Guy: So... how do you feel about me?
My Thoughts: Gah, what don't I feel about you? I've writen 27 sonnets about your eyes in the past week alone!
Me: Um..... I..... uh...... like..... you........ (and if I am feeling really brave) a..... lot....
Guy with Fe: Oh.... ok.... That's.... "nice"
Me: (*face hits desk in exasperation*)

However, being able to just say that gives me maneuverability in case I find out that the guy isn't actually interested in me for a relationship... he just wants a friend. If I come out and say "I adore you!!!!1111" and he goes... "uh yeah, I was just gonna ask that you be a bridesmaid in my wedding...." Then we have an even more awkward situation.

Wow, this entire response feels rather awkward. I am gonna go exit stage left now....

 

[Rasofy]

In summation, there is a 34% chance I would execute this person, 66% chance I would allow them to live in a prison for the remainder of their days. Things that would sway judgement in either case would be details on the cases. Were these people killed quickly? Or were their deaths dragged out? Etc.

Wow, I'd gladly vote on you. Your answers really surprised me, in a good way.I was expecting a lot of ''But he is a human!'' kind of answers. You cute little INFPs can be very pragmatic.

I have far more "sympathy" for people who kill someone else in the heat of the moment. The guy who comes home and finds his wife in bed with someone else - he snaps - kills them -- That I can understand. The guy who stalks his carefully chosen victim for 6 months, then spends 5 days slowly peeling her skin off... I don't get that at all.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[OrangeAppled]

INFP + INFP RELATIONSHIP = NO.

I went on one date with 2 different INFPs... One of them was into MBTI and was so delighted to tell me we were both INFPs. Then he proceeded to tell me that I could be the "man" in the relationship. Uh, what? I am sorry I did not sign up to pee standing up in this relationship. The other guy... I felt like I was on a date with my brother. (And I am an only child.)

This was my experience with an INFP date....I felt like his big sis. It didn't help that I was a few years older (and in your 20s that makes a difference).

Hey INFPs. Imagine you are a leader and you have to decide the destiny of a serial killer. He killed more than 30 people and he had pleasure doing that.

Life sentence in prison, solitary confinement. Human life is more valuable than whatever cost that requires. I don't believe in the death penalty either; IMO, it's not another person's right to decide if another human lives or not, and the government is just people, after all. Plus, the risk of putting an innocent person to death for a crime they did not commit is not one that should be taken, IMO.

Questions:

1) Are you cognizant and accepting of what you really want? Moreso than FJs?

I can't compare myself to FJs. I'm not in their heads. I am very aware of what I want. I accept it in the sense that I don't do self-denial much, but that doesn't mean I act on what I want. I differentiate between emotional desire, rationally determined needs, and what I've deemed morally acceptable. Emotional desires don't override the other two.

2) Have you ever had issues with guilt and/or shame?
Honestly....not that much. I'm such a "think before I act" kind that even when I go against what I think is ultimately right, I've already justified so much that I can never regret it.

If I've had shame, then it's the kind born out of social awkwardness, feeling deficient in some way, often because I can't relate to others. On a few occasions when I've blown my top & it was uncalled for, then I felt shame for being so petty, but not any long lasting, lingering kind. I just apologize & move on.

3) How hesitant are you about voicing your opinions? Why?
I'm not that hesitant, but not that forthcoming. I weigh my own purpose for voicing it & what affect it will likely have. If it will be nothing but disruptive, then why bother? If it's disruptive but has some potential benefit, then I may take that chance. I can be quite outspoken & blunt at times, not afraid to be the voice of dissent. I've actually mellowed with age, realizing the whole "there's a time & a place" adage is true, and that you can disagree without seeming hostile.

4) Do you desire to win the approval of others?
No....in fact, I think little about it. This strikes me as very so instinctual subtype though (after browsing the recent "you know you're an so" thread - some foreign stuff in there!). I'm a 4w5 sp/sx, and very much an independent, lone wolf type. My motivation has always been meeting my own potential, my own needs, and asserting my uniqueness. What other people think tends to be bottom rung. I think the last time such thoughts plagued me was middle school.....

Do you connect to other people with ease?

Do you act/express how you feel about others without awkwardness?

No, I don't connect easily with others. Exactly the opposite....my whole life I felt alienated from others, unable to connect or relate. I know now that I can connect, but it's special & unusual for me.

I have a very hard time expressing my feelings about other people. Family complains I never say "I love you" or much of anything in that way. My INFJ has noted this also, & he has to prod me to get feedback on how I feel about him & the relationship. I feel incredible vulnerable & awkward to express how I feel. Every word that exists to express such feelings suddenly will seem cheap & shallow, not adequate to express exactly what I feel, and I'd rather stay quiet than come off cheesy or cliche or in some way that is not true to what I feel.

 

[nolla]

That's why i said ''efficient'', you can't please everybody in those situations. ''Efficient'', in my view, would be the way that the expectancy of innocent people killed is minimal, a proper punishment is ensured, and people don't have to fund the maintenance of a parasite.

Well, but something must be done about them, right? I also take in consideration that life in prison can be worse than death, but it's more of a rationalization to justify the means.
I'm just exposing my opinions, feel free to disagree. I hope you guys and gals aren't taking this personal, this is just a simulation.

I'm not taking it too seriously. Just thought that this way you'll get what you were asking, a Fi way of throwing the question around. At the moment I haven't got any passion for this question one way or another because I am not in a position to make any decisions about it, and it doesn't seem too relevant to me anyhows. But, I can see how it could be relevant. And from that point of view I would definitely argue that the money spent on prisoners is not an argument at all. If we wanted we could drop the amount of prisoners way down. We should see how many of the prisoners could be brought safely back into the society. I'm sure it is a lot. In my country a financial criminal can get a longer sentence than a rapist, for example. This isn't about justice, this is about punishment. I don't think that revenge should be something so integral in the legal system. Priority should be about curing people and adjusting the system in ways that make it less likely for people to need to commit crime. If we did this, there would be so much more money available that keeping serial killers jailed indefinitely wouldn't be a problem at all.

EDIT: I guess I should explain why I don't like the idea that imprisonment is so often about revenge. If you think of people who you trust, or groups you trust, they are never the kind that show hatred towards you. So, when a society uses revenge, it is being hateful towards the criminal. This leads to the criminal not trusting the society in the future. Of course it is possible that he wouldn't trust it in any case, but the main concern should be that the society should not encourage division within itself. It should try to keep the trust of as many people as possible. This means also that the laws will have to be enforced, because otherwise the society would lose the trust of the law-abiding citizens. But, laws can be enforced equally without hating being part of it.

If a society creates such a condition that criminals are encouraged to fight against society and are provided a nice forum to practice their criminal activities with like-minded individuals, how is this helping the society?

 

[Rasofy]

I'm not taking it too seriously. Just thought that this way you'll get what you were asking, a Fi way of throwing the question around. At the moment I haven't got any passion for this question one way or another because I am not in a position to make any decisions about it, and it doesn't seem too relevant to me anyhows. But, I can see how it could be relevant. And from that point of view I would definitely argue that the money spent on prisoners is not an argument at all. If we wanted we could drop the amount of prisoners way down. We should see how many of the prisoners could be brought safely back into the society. I'm sure it is a lot. In my country a financial criminal can get a longer sentence than a rapist, for example. This isn't about justice, this is about punishment. I don't think that revenge should be something so integral in the legal system. Priority should be about curing people and adjusting the system in ways that make it less likely for people to need to commit crime. If we did this, there would be so much more money available that keeping serial killers jailed indefinitely wouldn't be a problem at all.

EDIT: I guess I should explain why I don't like the idea that imprisonment is so often about revenge. If you think of people who you trust, or groups you trust, they are never the kind that show hatred towards you. So, when a society uses revenge, it is being hateful towards the criminal. This leads to the criminal not trusting the society in the future. Of course it is possible that he wouldn't trust it in any case, but the main concern should be that the society should not encourage division within itself. It should try to keep the trust of as many people as possible. This means also that the laws will have to be enforced, because otherwise the society would lose the trust of the law-abiding citizens. But, laws can be enforced equally without hating being part of it.

You have interesting points. And I wouldn't want all the criminals killed, I just don't think it's reasonable to value the life of someone who doesn't value other people's. I don't think society should be wasting any cent on this kind of people. There are many many more important things to invest on. We won't be reaching a consensus on that though.

If a society creates such a condition that criminals are encouraged to fight against society and are provided a nice forum to practice their criminal activities with like-minded individuals, how is this helping the society?

Agreed, the prison system in general is broken, only serving for punishment purposes.

 

[nolla]

And I wouldn't want all the criminals killed, I just don't think it's reasonable to value the life of someone who doesn't value other people's.

Well, if I value freedom of speech, I will have to admit an argument against freedom of speech, right? Just because someone doesn't value what I value doesn't mean that I can now make exceptions of my values concerning them.

EDIT: BTW, by your logic someone could say that since the government approves death penalty, they don't value life, so we can kill them. Where does it stop?

EDIT 2: On the other hand, if we took that far enough... if there was a global principle that says "Anyone who kills another person for whatever reason, should be killed" and this would create a chain reaction, soon we wouldn't have any violent people on earth! Ha!

 

[Rasofy]

EDIT: BTW, by your logic someone could say that since the government approves death penalty, they don't value life, so we can kill them. Where does it stop?

Yes, and we can kill everybody that elected them as well. Heh, just kidding.
It's not ''they don't value life'', the correct is ''they don't value life of people that don't value life'', it changes everything. :steam:

EDIT 2: On the other hand, if we took that far enough... if there was a global principle that says "Anyone who kills another person for whatever reason, should be killed" and this would create a chain reaction, soon we wouldn't have any violent people on earth! Ha!

We can only dream. But I think there should be an exception for the called ''crimes of passion'', these are people that may value people's lives (unlike serial killers).

 

[Anew Leaf]

Well, if I value freedom of speech, I will have to admit an argument against freedom of speech, right? Just because someone doesn't value what I value doesn't mean that I can now make exceptions of my values concerning them.

EDIT: BTW, by your logic someone could say that since the government approves death penalty, they don't value life, so we can kill them. Where does it stop?
EDIT 2: On the other hand, if we took that far enough... if there was a global principle that says "Anyone who kills another person for whatever reason, should be killed" and this would create a chain reaction, soon we wouldn't have any violent people on earth! Ha!

I would counter with the idea that the death penalty for certain crimes does in fact value life.

I don't think killing anyone should be taken lightly, and I am not convinced that it is the best course of action in every situation.

But this is an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings. And as such imperfect solutions are sometimes what we have to contend with.

 

[nolla]

I would counter with the idea that the death penalty for certain crimes does in fact value life.

In a way it might, yeah. I still would like to rather have a society that doesn't claim the right to end anyone's life against their will. I guess it is either my individualism, or my certain mistrust of authorities. I have toyed with an idea of having serial killers locked up for life in a cell where they have this machine very much like those photo automates where you put your face in the crosshairs and press a button. But this machine would have a gun in it. That way the society would not sentence people to death. I'm sure many would kill themselves.

One thing that would bother me even more. A society that claims the right to end someone's life, but considers suicide illegal. That would mean that you are ultimately own by them.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Our bodies may be enslaved by this world, but they can never have our souls!