[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[strychnine]

Very interesting, and I agree -- I don't get much satisfaction out of 'winning' a debate if I'm wrong.

To be fair, I like fact-collecting etc as much as anyone, but I like it when all involved parties go into it admitting to themselves and everyone else that they don't have all information on the topic, and they're essentially going on a fact-finding mission... instead of going into it as if you have a strong opinion and then switching opinions without warning. Honestly, I think the whole communication issue would be solved if the other party would just say "I don't necessarily agree with this, BUT..." or if they would make sure not to sound or appear confrontational. In my mind, when you get emotionally involved in a debate, it's something you agree with. And if you get really passionate about both sides, that confuses the shit out of me!

I see this point. I just think of it differently I guess, because I don't think I know anything on a topic when even by others' measures I'd know a lot. IME Ps tend to think of things as 'maybe's. Or 'perhaps it's like this...' Very little of what I say is definitive, and I wrongly assume other people know that, so I don't preface my comments with disclaimers. I suppose others are taking it as fact

Definitely. The statement before this I completely disagree with (because I don't want to walk on eggshells with my friends), but this statement is totally true. Nothing good ever comes out of debating morals - unless both parties are debating morals that they are emotionally detached from.

I agree. I will debate ethical theories with people, or the application of said theories to a given situation, but I won't for example get into an abortion debate with someone. It will go nowhere except histrionics (if we disagree in the first place).

Is she a jealous person - to the point that if you were vague, she'd keep asking questions? If she is, I have no good advice for you. But if not, you could just say "I have a meeting" or "I'm going to a lunch" or "I'm meeting some people" or something along those lines.

I think she'd keep asking questions. This is helpful though, I could be vague enough that she doesn't know what it is I'm doing specifically. Good call.

Thanks, and by the way... sorry for posting so much in your thread...

 

[EJCC]

Your comments actually make me think of my (probable) ISTJ brother as well. Same functions, different order, right?

Yeah, I definitely relate a lot to ISTJs. Although to be fair, INFPs also have the same functions in a different order, and I don’t relate much to them at all! Probably because I don’t know many of them irl.

Except with him it was a bit the reverse from the ESTJ... My parents and I are Christians and my bro was raised one as well but decided he no longer wanted to be involved with the church about ten years ago. We were unhappy about that, and he knew/knows that and I know he is not happy about having contributed to us feeling like that, but it hasn't changed his mind. But this doesn't change the fact that he follows his life with a great deal of integrity and is attached to tradition and "the way things are/should be"...but only where he agrees with and likes them, as you say.

I’m glad you asked this question, because it breaks some SJ stereotypes. We are capable of critical thinking, we are capable of questioning authority and deciding for ourselves what we think is right. And that is what it looks like when we do.

He often brings his liking for tradition and his resistance to change up in a joking kind of way: when we all get together as a family now (doesn't happen very often as I live on the other side of the world) there are certain "traditions" he always wants to follow, ie. watching certain movies, bringing up certain family jokes, that sort of thing... He hates, I mean HATES, change for the sake of change, whereas I have mixed feelings about it, but can see the point in some contexts anyway.

Yeah, I’m not a rebel-without-a-cause sort of person either. As the saying goes: If it ain’t broke…

He'd rather hear one of his fav bands get a bit formulaic and release similar music album after album, because he thinks they do it well, rather than them branching out and experimenting with something that might not work so well (even if it resulted in artistic growth ultimately.)

Well, to be fair, if it did result in artistic growth, and if I liked them better later, I’d be okay with their experimentation. I wouldn’t listen to their crappy awkward growth phase albums but I’d listen to the before-and-after albums. That’s how I am with Green Day, actually. Same kind of thing.

I see this point. I just think of it differently I guess, because I don't think I know anything on a topic when even by others' measures I'd know a lot. IME Ps tend to think of things as 'maybe's. Or 'perhaps it's like this...' Very little of what I say is definitive, and I wrongly assume other people know that, so I don't preface my comments with disclaimers. I suppose others are taking it as fact

Yep! Or, at least, many of the J types do. I, for one, am used to operating under the assumption that everything is certain (even though it’s not), so in order to have those sorts of conversations, I need to get into a more Ne-heavy mode where I make my opinions a blank slate and purely look for interesting facts. Once I do that, I can have very interesting conversations with NTPs… but I’ve gotten kind of paranoid, after that interchange with the NFP, that I can come into those conversations unprepared and get caught off guard by an attempted analysis of a moral opinion that I can’t emotionally detach myself from.

I’ve tried to talk to people about that conversation, after it happened, and no one seems to understand why it shook me so much and why I’ve been halfway avoiding that NFP for the past couple weeks as a result. Hopefully you all understand, though?

I think she'd keep asking questions. This is helpful though, I could be vague enough that she doesn't know what it is I'm doing specifically. Good call.

Thanks, and by the way... sorry for posting so much in your thread...

No problem! The thread’s for whoever needs advice, so there’s no pressure to ask fewer questions. In fact, ask as many as you like!

 

[mrcockburn]

What would ESTJ with underdeveloped Si look like? Is it even possible? For example, ENTPs with flimsy Ti come up with these wild, off-the-wall ideas that may not even be logical.

 

[sui generis]

Dear ESTJ,

A. Glitter or hugs
B. Pudding or cake
C. Time machine or washing machine.
D. Football or reading.
E. Star trek tng or star trek original
F. Blue or red
G. House or houseboat.

. My research thanks you

A. Hugs.
B. Cake with pudding inside!
C. Washing machine.
D. READING ALL THE WAY.
E. Neither; I have no patience for sci-fi/fantasy.
F. BLUE
G. House.

 

[Jaq]

Hey is the lazor on stun or kill?

 

[EJCC]

Sorry Saturned, I totally missed your post! My answers:

A. Hugs! In the words of Demetri Martin: "Glitter is the herpes of craft supplies."
B. Pudding. Although I like good cake more than good pudding, I have a lifelong hatred for bad cake. After so many years of bad store-bought birthday cake... I just can't.
C. Washing machine. If there's one thing that science fiction has taught me (besides that you should NEVER create an artificial intelligence EVER), it's that time travel is a bad idea.
D. Reading, 'cause I suck at football.
E. TNG!!!!! One of my all-time favorite shows.
F. I can't choose! I have no favorite color.
G. Houseboat! That would RULE!

What would ESTJ with underdeveloped Si look like? Is it even possible? For example, ENTPs with flimsy Ti come up with these wild, off-the-wall ideas that may not even be logical.

They'd probably be stuck in their Te-Ne loop all the time... so instead of logically working through to-do lists and prioritizing efficiently, they would pick whichever random projects sound fun and work on those, to distract themselves from the important (but un-fun) things that should have been on the top of their to-do lists from the beginning. So, they would still be diligent and efficient workers, but not on any project that's relevant or important.

Hey is the lazor on stun or kill?

Stun. Because what use is a person if he's dead?

 

[sui generis]

Hey is the lazor on stun or kill?

Stun, unless you give me reason to put it on 'kill'.

 

[Anna intuitive]

Up until now, on this thread, I’ve been processing my relationship with my ESTJ colleague in her capacity as supervisor/trainer of me.

Now I want to understand her better in her responses to some changes that are taking place in our group, and in my role towards her.

In February a group of colleagues in our field of work met together for five days, for our Annual General Assembly followed by some training.

Now, the ESTJ supervisor and the coordinator (Catholic priest) were for years big buddies, but something happened and it is clear for some months that she is furious with him, but he won’t engage in the conflict…. She tried during the meeting to force him into an open conflict, but he wouldn’t…

Right at the end of that meeting, the coordinator said that he was planning to retire. The ESTJ supervisor expressed several times that she felt “shaken”. She expressed that she was clear that she couldn’t take on the task of coordinator in addition to her heavy responsibilities as training supervisor. She also kept looking around the room and saying “I don’t see anyone else in this room, do you see anyone else in this room?” We are a small group.

At some stage it transpired that the coordinator had me in mind as an apprentice successor. I said “no problem”, essentially.

Anyway, in the next meeting, the whole thing came up again, with her accusing the coordinator of abandoning us and letting us all down. It was one of her very occasional emotional outbursts. When I said I didn’t see it like that, she then withdrew and would not communicate any further and a tear trickled down her cheek.

OK, I understood that the whole thing was really difficult for her, and I understood it better when I read this thread and saw how the hierarchy thing would be meaningful for her, and since she doesn’t think I’m capable, to have me in a leadership role over her would be really horrible, plus the feeling of being let down by the coordinator whom she is anyway in unresolved conflict with.

Since then we had another meeting with just her and me and the coordinator, where he formally checked with me if I was willing to enter into “informal apprenticeship” as coordinator for the next few months (before potentially entering into “formal apprenticeship”!). My ESTJ colleague said twice that she was glad that it was only going to be “informal” apprenticeship.

Whether it’s because of that situation, or whether it’s because of other things in her life at present, there are signs that give me the impression that she is going through a difficult time.

This is what stood out for me. She said that she is not going to open a workshop to two of us to intern (which we already applied for and she agreed to) because she hasn’t given it for ages and doesn’t feel confident. I don’t think she actually said she doesn’t feel confident, but that was what she implied. Anyway, at the time, it sounded perfectly understandable to me, because that’s exactly how I would function when things aren’t going too well for me. Afterwards I realized it is totally out of type for her. She is always up and running and up for action challenges. She always does what she promised she would do. She would also never normally admit to not feeling up to something. For her to turn down an action challenge is a really bad sign… especially when she already agreed to it. What do you think???

And how should I be around her? What will be most helpful?

 

[EJCC]

What do you think???

Yeah, the fact that she already agreed to it is the confusing thing here. I mean, if someone asked me to do something and I didn't think I could do it well, I would refuse. But the fact that she suddenly feels uncertain about her ability... I'm not sure if I can speculate (although I really want to and I kind of already am I know that speculating isn't wise) considering how little information I have, but something has definitely made her second-guess her skillfulness.

Did you get the impression that she was glad you were only going into "informal" apprenticeship because of her own responsibilities, or because of yours? That is, do you think her tough times are making her unwilling to help you (because that would be tiring and a burden? maybe? speculating ), or are they making her jealous of you, or resentful that you're taking her friend's position, or some other speculative thing (because I can't help but speculate! damn my weak Ti!). If she holds no hard feelings towards you (which seems to be the case?), then the absolute 100% best thing to do is to keep doing what you've been doing. Be consistent and reliable, despite her tough times. She will very much appreciate that, more than she will say to you.

I hope that helps - and I'm sorry that there's been so much drama Poor ESTJ. If she cried during a meeting, then things must REALLY be bad.

 

[Anna intuitive]

Your answers and questions help me to sort things out in my head.

There are two issues. One is me gradually taking over the role of coordinator. I think she thinks that I'm not up to it - but is open to seeing how it works out. I don't mind her thinking that, since it's only recently that I've been explicitly demonstrating some of my strengths to her (instead of expecting her to intuit them, feeling disappointed when she didn't, and underperforming...). So in that respect, I just go forward, as things unfold, do my best, and no doubt it will work out fine. By the way, looking at Enneagram types, she's a 1 with a 2 wing and I'm a 4 with a 3 wing. I integrate well towards 1 - towards excellence - so doing my work excellently in my own way will work just as well for taking over the position of coordinator as it has with functioning well towards my ESTJ as a supervisee/trainee.

The second issue is her unhappiness. I don't know what it's about, but it's been coming through for a while if I think about it. She's been dropping lines about her being "cynical" and "what is the meaning of life?". She's in a bad space about her own work, I think, disappointed with the lack of results (we're all in the people training field in personal growth work, and it can bes pretty challenging). So if I clarify to myself that her unhappiness has to do with her, and not with me, then I can just be calm around her and pick up cues about whether to be cheerful or quiet.

I have another strategy that I'm adding to my first two:
1. Pursue excellence in my work in relation to her.
2. Be neutral - i.e. if I feel bugged by something she says, let it go. Usually it's something to do with type differences. I let it fall into a neutral space in me.
3. Communicate clearly, briefly and directly about practical matters and keep her updated. I have more practical admin matters to interact with her about since I'm taking over some of the coordinator functions, and I notice that communication without frills is fine for her. Less tiring for me too, since I'm not good with Fe (the aptitude to say the right thing at the right time).

I feel clearer about this now. I was mixing up the two issues, her unhappiness and my taking over functions as coordinator. That was confusing me and making me feel uneasy. I feel calmer now.

BTW I have read the entire thread now and have watched the videos! *humble bow*

 

[Tamske]

*cry* why are you all refusing that time machine? Take it and give it to me, I'll pay you a washing and a dishwashing machine, okay? I want to take the time machine apart and see how it works. Because any working time machine violates my favourite law of physics. It's worth an article in Nature, at least. Maybe the Nobel prize. I promise that I will test it thoroughly before attempting to prevent disasters (and ending up causing them, like in those science fiction stories). I'll first smash a vase, get back into time half a minute and see if the vase is whole again.

 

[sui generis]

*cry* why are you all refusing that time machine? Take it and give it to me, I'll pay you a washing and a dishwashing machine, okay?

...a washer I don't have to pay with coins AND a dishwasher?!?

I chose washing machine because I have a poor imagination and am not that great at imagining any reality other than my own.

 

[SilkRoad]

What would you say about an ESTJ with whom you have a conversation like the below? I am fairly sure that the person I had this convo with was an ESTJ, an acquaintance. It was some time ago but it raised my curiosity.

I was telling him about the new job I had landed, which was kind of my dream job, though only a maternity cover contract. He listened and asked questions and gave me some advice about managing my heavy workload. Then he said, and I remember this vividly... "Don't get your hopes too high...it's probably going to be a disappointment anyway."

I didn't know him that well and didn't say much in response to that but I do remember being a bit annoyed. It just seemed a bit...unnecessary, and it wasn't like I'd said that I expected this job to make all my dreams come true (I don't expect that from my work!), though I was at least somewhat excited. I remember thinking to myself "that was spoken like a person who's suffered some disappointments in life himself." I even felt that it seemed slightly bitter. Like I said, I didn't know him that well but he struck me as a very hard working and somewhat isolated figure (like, he wasn't in a long-term relationship and I think he probably wanted to be...don't most of us?). I also wondered if he felt unappreciated for his hard work.

Maybe it's not type-related at all, just this individual. But what do you think? Why would an ESTJ react like that?

 

[EJCC]

I have another strategy that I'm adding to my first two:
1. Pursue excellence in my work in relation to her.
2. Be neutral - i.e. if I feel bugged by something she says, let it go. Usually it's something to do with type differences. I let it fall into a neutral space in me.
3. Communicate clearly, briefly and directly about practical matters and keep her updated. I have more practical admin matters to interact with her about since I'm taking over some of the coordinator functions, and I notice that communication without frills is fine for her. Less tiring for me too, since I'm not good with Fe (the aptitude to say the right thing at the right time).

I feel clearer about this now. I was mixing up the two issues, her unhappiness and my taking over functions as coordinator. That was confusing me and making me feel uneasy. I feel calmer now.

Excellent! Yes, given that extra information, I definitely agree with you that it's two different issues, and I think you're doing exactly the right thing. Poor thing Now that I know she's a 1w2 (like me), I empathize with her even more. Just imagining crying in a meeting... talking about the "meaning of life" during work (and without being emotionally detached!)... I can't imagine!

BTW I have read the entire thread now and have watched the videos! *humble bow*

HOLY CRAP.

You are five billion times more patient and dedicated than I am! In your position I don't know if I would ever go through all of that. All I can say is that I hope that it, as a thread, was - and continues to be - as helpful as I try to make it. Even the really old posts. God, I was so young then!

(p.s. I have a new video up!)

*cry* why are you all refusing that time machine? Take it and give it to me, I'll pay you a washing and a dishwashing machine, okay? I want to take the time machine apart and see how it works. Because any working time machine violates my favourite law of physics. It's worth an article in Nature, at least. Maybe the Nobel prize. I promise that I will test it thoroughly before attempting to prevent disasters (and ending up causing them, like in those science fiction stories). I'll first smash a vase, get back into time half a minute and see if the vase is whole again.

Sure! As long as I know that it will be like the science fiction stories where it's impossible to change history... as opposed to, say, The Butterfly Effect. In which case, I wouldn't let anyone get their hands on it, for fear of it being stolen by someone with bad intentions.

What would you say about an ESTJ with whom you have a conversation like the below? I am fairly sure that the person I had this convo with was an ESTJ, an acquaintance. It was some time ago but it raised my curiosity.

I was telling him about the new job I had landed, which was kind of my dream job, though only a maternity cover contract. He listened and asked questions and gave me some advice about managing my heavy workload. Then he said, and I remember this vividly... "Don't get your hopes too high...it's probably going to be a disappointment anyway."

I didn't know him that well and didn't say much in response to that but I do remember being a bit annoyed. It just seemed a bit...unnecessary, and it wasn't like I'd said that I expected this job to make all my dreams come true (I don't expect that from my work!), though I was at least somewhat excited. I remember thinking to myself "that was spoken like a person who's suffered some disappointments in life himself." I even felt that it seemed slightly bitter. Like I said, I didn't know him that well but he struck me as a very hard working and somewhat isolated figure (like, he wasn't in a long-term relationship and I think he probably wanted to be...don't most of us?). I also wondered if he felt unappreciated for his hard work.

Maybe it's not type-related at all, just this individual. But what do you think? Why would an ESTJ react like that?

I don't think it's type-related. I can rationalize it so that it becomes type-related, by saying that he was using his experiences (Si) to advise you (Te) and protect you from being hurt (Fi). But he said it resentfully and not matter-of-factly, and resentful comments are not type-related at all. So I'd say that your intuition was correct, about why he reacted that way, i.e. that something in his life was going wrong and he was feeling pessimistic about life and opportunities in general. "Everything good becomes bad, and everything goes wrong at some point. Why should this be any different?"

So sad.

 

[Anna intuitive]

This thread has made this difference to me: it has taken away that semi-permanent feeling (quite huge) of irritation and frustration towards my ESTJ colleague. It was chewing up so much energy. Now this issue has moved right away from the centre of my awareness. When it comes up for me, I remember my strategies, I remember what I have learned on this thread, and it all stays quiet and manageable.

I'll be continuing to follow the thread, to keep it that way (quiet and manageable). Plus I'm an addict.

To put the record straight, my ESTJ colleague was emotionally detached when she talked about the meaning of life - so detached that she almost wasn't there. I just remember it, that's all.

 

[Rasofy]

What kind of hobbies do you have? Do you feel like you are wasting time while doing them?

 

[EJCC]

This thread has made this difference to me: it has taken away that semi-permanent feeling (quite huge) of irritation and frustration towards my ESTJ colleague. It was chewing up so much energy. Now this issue has moved right away from the centre of my awareness. When it comes up for me, I remember my strategies, I remember what I have learned on this thread, and it all stays quiet and manageable.

Hooray!

I'll be continuing to follow the thread, to keep it that way (quiet and manageable). Plus I'm an addict.

Glad there's enough instant gratification here for that to be possible! (And I hope my videos were helpful, even though I'm sure I appear and act totally differently from the ESTJs you know, mostly because of age)

To put the record straight, my ESTJ colleague was emotionally detached when she talked about the meaning of life - so detached that she almost wasn't there. I just remember it, that's all.

Spooky!

What kind of hobbies do you have? Do you feel like you are wasting time while doing them?

Most of my hobbies are productive Or at least, I wouldn't consider them to be a waste of time. This site, for instance, is a learning tool, and a place to talk about MBTI and Enneagram, and a place where I can talk about my own feelings with the knowledge that it won't be awkward, and will be instead analyzed in a helpful way (as it was meant to). None of that is possible for me in real life.

Also, any other hobby of mine that might be considered a waste of time, is something that I do with friends or family (or that I just have an intense passion for). And I absolutely never consider fun times with friends to be wasted time. Note: Usually my unproductive hobbies are the ones that I use as rewards after a long day/week.

Here's a list:

Directly productive hobbies:
- Knitting/sewing
- Miscellaneous crafts (e.g. woodworking, refurbishing)
- Cooking (but only with other people; cooking as a social activity is one of my favorite things )
- Volunteering

Indirectly productive hobbies:
- TypeC
- Reading
- Cycling/walking/hiking
- Exploring new restaurants/clubs/fun places I've never been
- Random internet research (e.g. Wikipedia time)

Unproductive hobbies:
- Video games
- Listening to/playing music
- Appreciating/making art
- Going clubbing
- Watching movies/TV

 

[sui generis]

What kind of hobbies do you have? Do you feel like you are wasting time while doing them?

I don't think it's a waste of time if I'm learning or benefitting from it somehow. I feel like I'm wasting time if my brain is "off" and I'm not actively thinking about something.

My hobbies include reading, journal writing, exercise (cycling, swimming, dance, yoga), the occasional art project, volunteerism, exploring the city.

 

[Rasofy]

EJCC,
Wow, you even play video games! Very interesting, thanks for the answer.

I don't think it's a waste of time if I'm learning or benefitting from it somehow. I feel like I'm wasting time if my brain is "off" and I'm not actively thinking about something.

Interesting. I can relate.

I asked because my ESTJ dad seems to have no hobbies. Even when he likes, he can't watch a movie until the end because he always stops in the middle to wash dishes or something.
I usually avoid talking to him because all he talks about is boring stuff I should do (mostly NOW) or, sometimes, boring stuff i should have done, along with the classic ''I told you''.
He seems to be Eneagram type 8, so there are gonna be differences .

 

[sui generis]

I asked because my ESTJ dad seems to have no hobbies. Even when he likes, he can't watch a movie until the end because he always stops in the middle to wash dishes or something.

To an extent, I relate to this. As I'm posting on here, I'm also watching TV and working on homework. Usually it's just that I have so much energy that I feel like I'm not doing enough if I'm just sitting there. I try not to make other people live up to my standards though.