[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Little Linguist]

I'm just popping by to say, "You're awesome!" Again.



Love reading your stuff.

 

[sleuthiness]

Firstly, my prior post was not a vent; a recent event did, however, spark its growth. Goal is to understand how to translate how my intentions are basically the same as his without receiving a lobotomy.

I may need more information than this in order to give a good answer, but my initial thought is: Tread very carefully. Take two steps back for every step forward (i.e. try and soften the blows by emphasizing that you aren't taking sides, BUT...)

"He's not a monster; he's just a dog!"

Yes, that's always my natural reaction when I'm attacked by him. It's kinda like encountering a real life Cujo, i.e. big, overpowering snarly thing reacting completely on impulse. It seems like an entirely emotional/instinctual reaction, and like the hulk, he returns to human form after doing battle. What happens when you-- the accused-- are physically backed into a wall, have conceded to being a piece of shit, yet the accuser persists? On the other hand, is it common for estjs to reject any information once a spouse or family member feels threatened?

It makes me really sad It makes me feel like they don't care about me.

I fully understand that he needs concrete results from me to feel at ease, but what he-- on the other hand-- does not understand is that there are many shades to life, that people can apply very different strategies yet have very similar long-term goals. I sense either intense jealousy from my estj arising from the fact that I'm free to make my own decisions and explore options, or he truly perceives my actions as unethical (going back on promises made simply to avoid contact with an individual who falls back on brutal measures to defend his viewpoints, opinions, family). Which do you think is more likely?

Now here's where I wonder whether I should even bother answering the question. Are you using this post to vent? Because this ESTJ obviously needs serious therapy, not simple advice from someone like me whose only psych experiences are two years at TypeC and one semester of Intro to Psych in college. I get the feeling that there's a lot of subtext in your post, but I'm not very good at reading subtext! Please be blunt with me - bluntness is the only language I'm totally fluent in

My last paragraph is exactly what happened. We just don't talk or cross paths, really (if I can help it). He threatened to throw a punch, yet hit the wall beside my head (like usual). Which do you think is more likely?

a) he cares about his step-son too much to hurt him
b) is fearful of the social repercussions (I would tell other family members, just as any other victim of domestic abuse would rightfully do)
c) does not wish to pay for possible medical bills
d) a blend of the above?
e) none?

 

[sui generis]

Do you end up in a lot of one-way friendships? (Either direction)

I've had a few of those friendships like EJCC mentioned, the one where the other person is all ZOMG YOU ARE MY BEST FRIEND and I'm all... I think it happens less as I get older. I don't think I have any the other way...?

And do you feel like you know your friends well but they have no idea who you really are? Or maybe the other way around?

I hope my friends truly know me-- I'm not at all good at hiding who I am. And as for the other way around? I have no interest in shallow friendships. I want to really know people.

And with friends, if I feel like they're hiding a lot from me (in terms of feelings and important opinions), that's kind of a turn-off, because I don't hide that much at all. I value the honesty and openness of all of my friends. I'm not the sort of person who likes to pick the Mystery Kid and try to pry open their psyche to see what's inside. (My ENFJ BFF is like this, though. Big time.)

I used to be interested in prying people open to see what's inside, but I don't have any interest/patience for that now. I want to know what you're like, but only if you want to tell me.

 

[strychnine]

I dunno... There's a certain kind of silence that I always read as "There's something that I really want to say, but I can't." And maybe I'm right when I think this - and if I am, it might have something to do with my being an enneagram 1 ("my repression sense is tingling!!!") - but I could easily not be.

I could see that being related to enneagram 1. But yeah, a lot of people have that sense of "S/he wants to say something and is holding back -- what is it?" and I think it is important to trust that... honesty is key in friendships, as you said before.

Well, "knowing someone well" could just mean that you've been around them long enough to know what they like, or think is funny, which is different from knowing them entirely, though one could argue that what people like is a part of who they are.

And no problem! You were right about being "lonely" - it would be sad if no one asked me questions here anymore... I like feeling useful, you know?

I agree to some degree. But I think I have a slightly different definition of knowing someone from most people, as in people will tell me I know them well and I'll be thinking, "But I don't know anything about you...the real you!" I guess I don't consider things they like, etc, as the real them so to speak.

I don't see this thread sinking for very long, don't worry

I've had a few of those friendships like EJCC mentioned, the one where the other person is all ZOMG YOU ARE MY BEST FRIEND and I'm all... I think it happens less as I get older. I don't think I have any the other way...?


I hope my friends truly know me-- I'm not at all good at hiding who I am. And as for the other way around? I have no interest in shallow friendships. I want to really know people.


I used to be interested in prying people open to see what's inside, but I don't have any interest/patience for that now. I want to know what you're like, but only if you want to tell me.

Thanks to you as well. I really appreciate it. I agree though, there is no point whatsoever in shallow friendships, at least beyond maintaining "acquaintances". But if a friendship is to be good, it better be deep.

 

[sleuthiness]

I used to be interested in prying people open to see what's inside, but I don't have any interest/patience for that now. I want to know what you're like, but only if you want to tell me.

As an estj, how would you describe how you "pry" into others? To me, prying (the word) has a negative connotation; maybe you can address this.

 

[EJCC]

I'm curious, Joe - is this regular behavior for your ESTJ? Does he usually threaten violence? I'm going to assume that it's not regular, and that he's usually just scary and angry when he doesn't get his way. But if I'm assuming wrong, let me know, and I'll re-answer.

What happens when you-- the accused-- are physically backed into a wall, have conceded to being a piece of shit, yet the accuser persists? On the other hand, is it common for estjs to reject any information once a spouse or family member feels threatened?

Again, I feel like I need more information than this... like, e.g, what does "conceded to being a piece of shit" really mean? Presumably you don't mean that literally - as in, the ESTJ saying "Yes, I am the scum of the earth..." But if someone was verbally attacking me for, say, something I did, and I conceded that what I did was wrong and I was really sorry, and they kept attacking me for it, then I'd react with something like "Okay, enough already! I feel bad enough as is! I get it. Please stop." And if they kept going, I might get choked up. (But I'm a girl, so...)

I fully understand that he needs concrete results from me to feel at ease, but what he-- on the other hand-- does not understand is that there are many shades to life, that people can apply very different strategies yet have very similar long-term goals. I sense either intense jealousy from my estj arising from the fact that I'm free to make my own decisions and explore options, or he truly perceives my actions as unethical (going back on promises made simply to avoid contact with an individual who falls back on brutal measures to defend his viewpoints, opinions, family). Which do you think is more likely?

Definitely, definitely the latter. No way is it jealousy. ESTJs don't long for freedom, Joe We make our own little cage to live in, and we stay there happily! It's the INFPs who want to escape. What's going on here, is that ESTJs really only understand the life paths that are "normal", and if you take a path that they don't consider "normal", then they won't approve, because they don't think it's the best choice. However, if you were to rationally explain, in a way that makes sense to them (i.e. BLUNTLY AND CONCISELY!!!), why you made those choices, they would, eventually, accept your choices and not nag you anymore. (That's what happened with me and my hyper-unconventional ENTP friend. She convinced me why her choices were what was best for her, and why they met her needs perfectly at the time, and I went "Sure, whatever. Not what I would do, but to each their own...")

My last paragraph is exactly what happened.

I figured it was. The reason why I asked is because your question seemed so - for lack of a better word - insane, to me, at the time. "Did he fake punch me in the head because he cares about me?" Your ESTJ's act was abusive, and abusive behavior is not MBTI-related. Joe, your ESTJ has issues, and when people have issues that serious, any normal, MBTI-ish traits that they have/had suddenly become warped and skewed. There have been lots of questions on this thread about messed-up ESTJs, and I often have trouble answering them because I just can't relate. ESTJs aren't naturally violent people.

We just don't talk or cross paths, really (if I can help it). He threatened to throw a punch, yet hit the wall beside my head (like usual). Which do you think is more likely?

a) he cares about his step-son too much to hurt him
b) is fearful of the social repercussions (I would tell other family members, just as any other victim of domestic abuse would rightfully do)
c) does not wish to pay for possible medical bills
d) a blend of the above?
e) none?

Based on my knowledge of scary people like your ESTJ, I'd say that (unless you have examples to prove me wrong) he's not actually capable of violence. He just wanted to scare you, in order to motivate you to follow the rules. I actually kinda-sorta understand what he did (but am NOT ADVOCATING IT) - in that, when I was in middle school, I had a strange and awkward time trying to deal with my anger, and would do bizarre stuff like that. Not threatening to punch people, and not getting angry with loved ones (I WOULD NEVER DO THAT EVER!!!) but once I accidentally smacked someone in the face with a hard plastic lunchbox, hoping that they would dodge it. Same type of thing. Sometimes, if you get really frustrated and you can't come up with a solution, you've got to let that out. Although a better way would be to listen to some punk rock at full volume But that's just my opinion

 

[Rainne]

Hi ESTJs,

Do you sometimes oppose something for the sake of being in control?

 

[EJCC]

I agree to some degree. But I think I have a slightly different definition of knowing someone from most people, as in people will tell me I know them well and I'll be thinking, "But I don't know anything about you...the real you!" I guess I don't consider things they like, etc, as the real them so to speak.

I think you're right. I guess I just have a hard time thinking in those terms. I take so much pride in being honest and genuine, that I would hate to think that what I show people on a daily basis isn't "the real me".

Also, if you define "the real me" as the side that only true friends see, i.e. the side that you'd rather that no one else judge you on, then "the real me" is the part that takes over when I'm upset and (briefly) turns me into a sickeningly insecure 13-year-old emo kid. And if people judged me on that alone, then they would be justified in never ever wanting to spend time with me.

I don't see this thread sinking for very long, don't worry

Yay!!!

Thanks for helping by asking questions I appreciate it!

I used to be interested in prying people open to see what's inside, but I don't have any interest/patience for that now. I want to know what you're like, but only if you want to tell me.

Yes! A notable exception being if a person TOTALLY THROWS THEMSELF AT YOU and you're like "Too much information!!! " In which case I want to get the hell away as soon as possible. I actually have a one-way friendship like that, where I felt like an Acme anvil of traumatic family history got dropped on my head within a couple weeks of meeting her. And she cried on me for an hour... and the whole time, I was thinking " What do I do???!?" And since then I've had a hard time wanting to be her (actual) friend, because I just associate her with emotional unloading, and not with any actual non-overbearingly friendly behavior.

Hi ESTJs,

Do you sometimes oppose something for the sake of being in control?

Personally, I would rather be on the right side of the debate, than be in control. When I'm in situations where I was really outspoken/controlling about a particular issue, and I find out that my position was totally wrong, I concede out of humiliation, in as low-key a manner as possible, quietly and letting other people lead instead of me. That is, until I calm down again and come up with arguments for the RIGHT side

But I dunno whether that's a typical ESTJ thing.

 

[sui generis]

Hi ESTJs,

Do you sometimes oppose something for the sake of being in control?

Do you have an example?
I know that I will oppose things to stay in control of *myself* and not be pushed into doing things I don't want to do, and I will oppose them quite forcefully, but I have very little interest in being "in control" of other people.

As an estj, how would you describe how you "pry" into others? To me, prying (the word) has a negative connotation; maybe you can address this.

Perhaps "pry" is the wrong word, as, I agree, it does have negative connotations. Basically, just asking questions that may seem kind of invasive, wanting to figure them out. We're not real known for our tact, us ESTJs, so I suppose that questions could seem like an interrogation.

I think you're right. I guess I just have a hard time thinking in those terms. I take so much pride in being honest and genuine, that I would hate to think that what I show people on a daily basis isn't "the real me".

YES I mean, there's parts of me that I don't show to lots of people, but the rest of me isn't a *facade*. I'm pretty what-you-see-is-what-you-get.

Yes! A notable exception being if a person TOTALLY THROWS THEMSELF AT YOU and you're like "Too much information!!! " In which case I want to get the hell away as soon as possible. I actually have a one-way friendship like that, where I felt like an Acme anvil of traumatic family history got dropped on my head within a couple weeks of meeting her. And she cried on me for an hour... and the whole time, I was thinking " What do I do???!?" And since then I've had a hard time wanting to be her (actual) friend, because I just associate her with emotional unloading, and not with any actual non-overbearingly friendly behavior.

YES. It is so very different if it's a mutual "click" sort of thing, where we're both sharing all this information, but I would be SO uncomfortable/turned off if I just had a person dump a bunch of emotional stuff on me. I've said it before, but I find emotions, mine and others', draining, so I would have a huge DO NOT WANT reaction to that.

 

[strychnine]

I forgot to respond to your responses, but thank you!

YES I mean, there's parts of me that I don't show to lots of people, but the rest of me isn't a *facade*. I'm pretty what-you-see-is-what-you-get.

The bolded is what I think I was getting at from when I first asked this... Interesting. Thanks guys

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Hey EJCC and mnestic, I have a few questions....
Te-Ne loop? Is it possible and what would it look like? Is it similar to Ni-Ti loop of INFJs? Why would it happen? I think I might have found an odd ESTJ in this loop, but I wanted to ask someone with experience as an ESTJ rather than simply conjecture in my own head about it. Thank you for this thread.

 

[EJCC]

Hey EJCC and mnestic, I have a few questions....
Te-Ne loop? Is it possible and what would it look like? Is it similar to Ni-Ti loop of INFJs? Why would it happen? I think I might have found an odd ESTJ in this loop, but I wanted to ask someone with experience as an ESTJ rather than simply conjecture in my own head about it. Thank you for this thread.

... I don't know anything about the Tert Loop concept. I've seen it mentioned in passing on TypeC, but that's just about it. What's the basic idea? Is it that the tertiary function overtakes the dominant one, or something?

Also, no problem, for this thread! I'm so glad I made it

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Hmmm, For an ESTJ it would mean that instead of using Te and Si a person is relying on Te and Ne. Nothing wrong with an ESTJ using Ne, but the loop refers to the fact when a type stops using their secondary function and using their third. Which results in two extroverted functions being used primarily for ESTJs. Now what does it mean in practice?

 

[Fidelia]

It becomes a loop when the two functions just keep on repeating each other but not doing anything constructive. An example is when INFPs fall into a Fi-Si loop where they have all these strong feelings that loop back to past examples, which engender more strong feelings, but they don't break free and do anything productive with them. Or INFJs Ni-Ti loops where they look for possibilities, categorize them internally, present themselves with more options, decide that the structure they chose won't accommodate everything, then check with Ni again to be sure they didn't miss anything and keep on in the same unproductive pattern (really terrible when you try to write papers. Also terrible when you are in a relationship with someone who is behaving badly. You keep reviewing possible reasons for behaviour or solutions/then assess results/then consider new things/then decide you were wrong before and reassess etc.

Is there a Te-Ne version of doing this where you keep essentially going around and around without it being productive or yielding the results you would like?

 

[sui generis]

Hi Keps

I'd love to help you, but I'm really not well-versed in speaking functionese. What kind of behaviors is this person displaying?

 

[Tamske]

I've gathered some ideas about that Dom-Tert loop throughout the forum. Seems something either immature or dysfunctional.
One of them is the often discussed NiFi, which results in a sort of angst: feeling bad, making up all sorts of reasons why you should feel bad, feeling worse still... See eg. Harry Potter (ISFP) and the Order of the Phoenix and Colin Craven (INTJ) in The secret garden. Even I can get into this mood, which would mean my fifth and seventh function collaborate to dominance somehow.
I've seen examples of NeFe too, the extreme version of which is narcistic behavior. I'm a genius and praise me because I need this to confirm my ideas.

NiTi? How does that look like? And... TeNe??? My husband is a great Si user, to the point where he needs my Ne to get out of the rut

 

[Fidelia]

I just explained Ni-Ti two posts above. But, I'm wondering about Te-Ne and how that would look. I think it's not just in cases of immaturity, but also during points of crisis/stress/anxiety that those behaviours tend to crop up most.

 

[Tamske]

I just explained Ni-Ti two posts above. But, I'm wondering about Te-Ne and how that would look. I think it's not just in cases of immaturity, but also during points of crisis/stress/anxiety that those behaviours tend to crop up most.

Okay, true

Doing nothing productive when there's a Te in the loop? Seems quite contradictory...
I'm thinking about an occasion in which such a thing can happen. Suppose you've got to do some boring repetitive job.
Ne: there has to be a way to do it more efficiently.
Te: let's search
Ne: this improves the process
Te: implement it
Ne: and what about this?
And without some control mechanism, you'll end up trying out all sorts of improvements and putting more effort in it than needed, maybe resulting in some half-baked solution or even total failure.

 

[EJCC]

Okay, true

Doing nothing productive when there's a Te in the loop? Seems quite contradictory...
I'm thinking about an occasion in which such a thing can happen. Suppose you've got to do some boring repetitive job.
Ne: there has to be a way to do it more efficiently.
Te: let's search
Ne: this improves the process
Te: implement it
Ne: and what about this?
And without some control mechanism, you'll end up trying out all sorts of improvements and putting more effort in it than needed, maybe resulting in some half-baked solution or even total failure.

Hm... Maybe? My first instinct was something along the lines of

Te: "I should be doing something productive."
Ne: "Hey, let's draw a pretty picture, to put on the wall! "
Te: "I guess I don't have that many decorations up there... so it's technically productive... Let's do it."

What Si should be doing in this situation: "WTF PEOPLE I have a LONG LIST of things you could be doing that are WAY more productive."
Which leads to...
Te: "Oh right. Sorry Ne. Some other time."
Ne: "... "

 

[EJCC]

I'm wondering about Te-Ne and how that would look. I think it's not just in cases of immaturity, but also during points of crisis/stress/anxiety that those behaviours tend to crop up most.

Absolutely. If I was right in the example I posted just above this - i.e. if that really is what a Te-Ne loop looks like - then it absolutely is a symptom of immaturity and/or stress. When I know that there's something I need to get done, but I'm really stressed out, my Ne makes me easily distractible, and I end up wasting time and feeling guilty about it for hours at a time, when I should be working. And that time-wasting, instead of functioning like a nice break from work, makes me feel horrible, and more stressed.

Lol, sounds loop-ish to me!