[NT] A Question for E/INTJ - what is the attraction?

[Rebe]

Ohhh Uumlau...you're in for a very very goeeyy ride

Edit: to save this poor INTJ the trouble of having to explain this to every NFP on the forum, I wanted to let you guys know me and Uumlau have had this convo already on our walls

http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...u2=5494&page=5

(start from the third post)

 

[JHBowden]

This thread has too much goo. Ejecting in 3, 2, 1...

 

[stringstheory]

i know no one asked the NFPs, but on the flip side i think the wall that NTJs put up (often by means of sarcasm) is just adorable

 

[Metamorphosis]

And, once again, this might be due to my enneagram, but I feel misunderstood and freakish all the damn time.

Yes, I have the ability and facility to connect with many life forms, and the universe itself, but still, on a human, existential level, I feel quite unique to a negative, lonely extent.

I was not built like other girls, my desires are vast, varied, and deep.

And, I think what makes me fall in love with people is their ability to "get it", in general, and more specifically, their ability, which is rare, to get me. :blushing:

I don't think you give other people enough credit.

Do you ever wonder what drives your need to be understood?

I think being completely understood and "got" at all times would turn out to be not nearly as exciting as you think. I would choose a lifetime of discovering more/new things about my partner over an instant complete understanding any day.

Have you understood your partners as well as you want them to understand you?

Your intense desire to be truly understood for your freakish unique self, almost makes it seem like you have a real fear of being like other people.

 

[SillySapienne]

I don't think you give other people enough credit.

I think, if anything, the opposite is true.

Do you ever wonder what drives your need to be understood?

Yes, deep feelings of alienation. And the desire to not only feel connected to someone but to be understood by them, this probably has a lot to do with growing up mentor-less.

It is an unfair desire though, because I've spent my entire lifetime primarily devoted to understanding myself, and others. Most people spend their time thinking about other things.

I think being completely understood and "got" at all times would turn out to be not nearly as exciting as you think. I would choose a lifetime of discovering more/new things about my partner over an instant complete understanding any day.

I enjoy both, and for long term purposes would prefer the latter over the former, duh.

But, there is nothing more incredible than just clicking with someone instantly, having no "shared" history, yet, for some inexplicable reason, having some shared perception of reality. That mutual connection is incredible.

Now, " I would choose a lifetime of discovering more/new things about my partner"

^ I just discussed the above, in tears, with my partner, last night.

I need this kind of relationship with the people I love, especially with my significant other, a lifetime spent growing independently and interdependently together, all the while getting closer and gaining deeper understanding of life and each other... what bliss that would be.

Have you understood your partners as well as you want them to understand you?

In the past, I've tended to understand my partners far more than they understood me.

This could be due to several reasons, I don't know.

As I've stated earlier, I am wired to care and be curious about human beings, especially ones I'm close to. I've always made concerted efforts to understand my partners, sadly, the same efforts have rarely been extended to me.

Your intense desire to be truly understood for your freakish unique self, almost makes it seem like you have a real fear of being like other people.

Fear of mediocrity?

Nope.

I know where I stand, I know my idiosyncrasies, my abnormalities, my deficiencies, and my particular aptitudes.

I'm not really concerned about how I measure up or down compared to others, I just really hate feeling alone when with someone "close" to me, that's all.

This happens a lot, and it evokes silent tears, an awful feeling.

To just be connected and understood by one person is essentially all I'm asking for.

 

[Uytuun]

You guys...do you know how difficult it is to constructively deal with tert Fi once you start going there? You tend to be better at it than we are. Although it works best when the INTJ is gravitating towards Fi and the NFP towards Te IME, pure Te and pure Fi are both fairly awful.

I sometimes get the impression that NFPs are more rational with regard to emotions and irrational in other areas of life whereas for NTJs it's the other way around, may not be able to harness the emotionality of Fi, but will continue to deal in the outside world.

 

[SillySapienne]

I sometimes get the impression that NFPs are more rational with regard to emotions

Thank you!

This is what having a healthy relationship with Fi leads to, which is, a healthy, unbiased view/understanding of your emotional self, without judgment, well, we could judge ourselves, but that won't change how we feel.

We'll feel x-emotion + guilt perhaps, but we'll feel the whole dynamic package, and accept it first as is, and if need be, change our actions to eliminate the guilt.

 

[LadyJaye]

Probably more like this, lol.

(plus some pictures that you can't post on TypeC)

Love this.

I've had friends tell me that some of the INTJ's I appreciate are " intense"
" intimidating" and "creepy" ( lol ). Not that I'm drawn to psychopaths. But, for some reason I don't find the austerity of the INTJ outer demeanor off-putting at all. And I love how they take their time getting to know me. It feels like something deeper and more gratifying to take our time.

I miss having an INTJ in my life. ^That picture sort put to image how I felt around him. Like he didn't know what to do with me. You guys, are truly diamonds in the rough though. It felt like my one really saw me, faults and all.

One of my INTJ guy friends was a lot like that. He was one of only a tiny group of people that I didn't mind if he saw me really sick/no make up/ having an ugly moment. He didn't judge me. He didn't flinch because he was committed to our friendship, and I was grateful for the merciful eyes.

My ENTJ best friend is also that way. She never sees a negative thing about me - she's always affirming me, and cheering me on. And I know that she would do anything for me, despite her general disdain for humanity as a whole. I know her loyalty and love is very special.

 

[sculpting]

You guys...do you know how difficult it is to constructively deal with tert Fi once you start going there? You tend to be better at it than we are. Although it works best when the INTJ is gravitating towards Fi and the NFP towards Te IME, pure Te and pure Fi are both fairly awful.

I sometimes get the impression that NFPs are more rational with regard to emotions and irrational in other areas of life whereas for NTJs it's the other way around, may not be able to harness the emotionality of Fi, but will continue to deal in the outside world.

I think-granted an NeTe thought with no evidence-we may have a baby ESTJ inside of us: NeFi TeSi. I think we may use that second half of our personality to modulate our emotions and teach others about their emotions. If it is ESTJ-like, well then we are the "middle management of emo"??? Many of the negative aspects of enfp Te usage are very`similar to those of a very, very immature ESTJ, but emo tainted. "Erratic Te"...

To Ne the analogy across to you guys...you would have a baby ISFP inside of you? NiTe.....FiSe Many INTJs seem to have an affinity for music, physical activity or dance as you age. Also, once uncovered your emotions seem extraordinarily sensitive-like a very young Fi dom perhaps??? I just dont know enough...To complete the analogy...your baby FiSe is the musician, the artist, the innocent yet sensual child of nature, so easily hurt, that hides under the strong exterior....I dunno though...

 

[Rebe]

I've had friends tell me that some of the INTJ's I appreciate are " intense"
" intimidating" and "creepy" ( lol ). Not that I'm drawn to psychopaths. But, for some reason I don't find the austerity of the INTJ outer demeanor off-putting at all. And I love how they take their time getting to know me. It feels like something deeper and more gratifying to take our time.

The INTJ I knew, he had a cold demeanor from afar but he presented me with a good amount of his own Fi and it was very .

 

[Poki]

I think-granted an NeTe thought with no evidence-we may have a baby ESTJ inside of us: NeFi TeSi. I think we may use that second half of our personality to modulate our emotions and teach others about their emotions. If it is ESTJ-like, well then we are the "middle management of emo"??? Many of the negative aspects of enfp Te usage are very`similar to those of a very, very immature ESTJ, but emo tainted. "Erratic Te"...

To Ne the analogy across to you guys...you would have a baby ISFP inside of you? NiTe.....FiSe Many INTJs seem to have an affinity for music, physical activity or dance as you age. Also, once uncovered your emotions seem extraordinarily sensitive-like a very young Fi dom perhaps??? I just dont know enough...To complete the analogy...your baby FiSe is the musician, the artist, the innocent yet sensual child of nature, so easily hurt, that hides under the strong exterior....I dunno though...

I got me a baby ENFJ I will love it, and change it, and squeeze it, and...sorry...to much bugs bunny as a kid. I can see that baby ISFP artist in INTJs in person and know exactly what you are talking about. They have their sense of taste and what looks nice and can become stubborn in regard to what looks nice and can get hurt if someone knocks it, to the point of pulling it back and not letting it out. Underneath a TJ is purples and pinks, flowers and butterflies

 

[Rebe]

I got me a baby ENFJ I will love it, and change it, and squeeze it, and...sorry...to much bugs bunny as a kid. I can see that baby ISFP artist in INTJs in person and know exactly what you are talking about. They have their sense of taste and what looks nice and can become stubborn in regard to what looks nice and can get hurt if someone knocks it, to the point of pulling it back and not letting it out. Underneath a TJ is purples and pinks, flowers and butterflies

uh oh, now you have angered them. Watch out.

Orobas - there's a theory about being in high stress and becoming your opposite type, so INFPs would be ESTJs, ENFPs ISTJs...

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INFP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESTJ. Example characteristics are:

* being very critical and find fault with almost everything
* doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
* becoming bossy or domineering and ignoring others' feelings
* being pedantic about unimportant details

The shadow is part of the unconscious that is often visible to others, onto whom the shadow is projected. The INFP may therefore readily see these faults in others without recognising it in him/her self.

Site.

 

[Poki]

uh oh, now you have angered them. Watch out.

Orobas - there's a theory about being in high stress and becoming your opposite type, so INFPs would be ESTJs, ENFPs ISTJs...

Site.

I have actually went down the thought process that I think Oro is thinking of. It has to do with the baby inside E/I based on the normal personalities E/I. An extroverted person is gonna be more outgoing with their inner child when stressed, hence an outgoing ISTJ which is like an ESTJ. I will be ENFJ, but in a very quiet manner being more like an INFJ when stressed because of my more introverted nature.

We do have access to this inner child when not stressed as well, but it comes out more in a baby form instead of a stressed form. In the stressed form its got a huge armour protectant that is our dominant at full force, but when not stressed its fragile as the dominant is off elsewhere leaving it unprotected.

I have stood in front of INTJs and ESTJs in this unprotected state. I dont think I can actually recognize ISTJs in this state for some reason. I know many ISTJs and I just cant recognize it.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

Underneath a TJ is purples and pinks, flowers and butterflies

uh oh, now you have angered them. Watch out.

Its True! Anger with tinges of nausea!

:steam:

Do you have a quick example of his logical inconsistency? I am wondering if I do the same thing. If I do, I'd like to change that. Sometimes when people talk about principles, they believe the other argument is logically inconsistent/weak but actually, both principles are not logically sound, but they are principles. In reality, perhaps the principle may never be instilled, but it is still a strong belief. I am wondering what your side of the argument is.

One I think about (in confusion) once in a while is a debate he and another coworker got into around Halloween. We were going to have a Halloween 'party' here at the office, and he didn't want to participate because of its symbolic worship of the devil... and I think he referred to some of it as pagaan.

I completely understood a person not wanting to participate in a Holiday, for whatever reason, but the other person he was arguing with got him riled up where he began saying things like 'Bats are evil' and 'Tombstones are a representation of worshipping the Devil'. This is where the fun began. By the time this was fully under way, there was an audience of about 8 people listening to this debate.

The other person (and eventually myself when I began mediating because I could see that the other person was attacking directly which was making it worse... and I really wanted to understand) proposed that nothing is evil in and of itself, it is only what we allow it to be. The INFP is a gun owner, so we asked him the question 'Is your gun evil because it can kill?' to which he answered 'No, of course not'. He couldn't differentiate between the idea that objects themselves are not inherently evil, although he admitted as much with the gun.

The argument then switched to how everything about the holiday is about devil worship, evil and sin (INFP is a devout Christian) and should not be celebrated due to its pagaan roots.

The other person then asked him if he celebrated Christmas, where some of the traditions also apparently has some pagaan roots. (??) Those traditions were OK.

It was just a weird argument and nearly everything he said he would contradict himself with something else a minute later, or would get angry because we were "advocating" an evil holiday.

 

[Rebe]

^ I won't go into how I feel about religion here, haha. I don't think how he reacted is an INFP trait persay or an INFP weakness. I think in that situation, any religious type could be illogical when it comes to their beliefs.

When I was younger, I used to get rifled up too, but now I have learned to smirk when it is not important or useful to argue a point.

One 'argument' I had with my friends is about the idea of smacking/spanking your kids if they misbehave. I am dead-set against it; zero tolerance for any kind of physical abuse, even a light smacking on the hand. I was very emotional about it so I couldn't argue my point coherently and also, I didn't want to reveal any personal details. This doesn't happen often, for me to appear very emotional, I prefer being sarcastic, but I have perhaps two or three topics that gets me to be emotionally vulnerable-ish.

In my opinion, the infliction of even very minor physical pain creates mistrust between the parent and child and a sense of betrayal and abuse. Because the person in authority chose to use 'physical' strength in a way that hurts a child instead of being a teacher, a nurturer and a role model. Neither of them believed in the strategy but they wanted to argue the point anyway, which made me a mad because they could see I was all emotional about it and practiced no ounce of sensitivity. I don't ask for a lot on a regular basis but since they were my close friends, I expected some sort of 'understanding' courtesy, the same that I always extend to them when they talk about sensitive topics. I don't think my argument is illogical, perhaps weak in execution.

 

[sculpting]

uh oh, now you have angered them. Watch out.

Orobas - there's a theory about being in high stress and becoming your opposite type, so INFPs would be ESTJs, ENFPs ISTJs...

Site.

Yes, that is the standard grip idea which focuses on the last function. But it doesnt fit quite right as it says I would turn into an ISTJ under stress. When you stress out enfps we extrovert Te-like an estj, not an ISTJ. We become a bit bitchy, tyrannical, and are very quick to make decisions. We are also arrogant, bossy, erratically critical, dont want to listen to others and even combative and a bit aggressive. Very immature Te dom mannerismsnot aux Te mannerisms like an ISTJ.

It seems when you stress out INFPs, the become very rigid and prickly-like an ISTJ inspector-but an inspector of adherence to very particular Fi rules? Things become black/white wrong/right based upon the particular Fi ruleset of the INFP.

The enfp model seems to fit pretty well but the infp model has so few data points, that it is just a guess...


And yeah poki-I have noticed the aesthetic tendencies in the INTJ women I have known especially...and in my father in law as well oddly...

 

[Poki]

Yes, that is the standard grip idea which focuses on the last function. But it doesnt fit quite right as it says I would turn into an ISTJ under stress. When you stress out enfps we extrovert Te-like an estj, not an ISTJ. We become a bit bitchy, tyrannical, and are very quick to make decisions. We are also arrogant, bossy, erratically critical, dont want to listen to others and even combative and a bit aggressive. Very immature Te dom mannerismsnot aux Te mannerisms like an ISTJ.

It seems when you stress out INFPs, the become very rigid and prickly-like an ISTJ inspector-but an inspector of adherence to very particular Fi rules? Things become black/white wrong/right based upon the particular Fi ruleset of the INFP.

The enfp model seems to fit pretty well but the infp model has so few data points, that it is just a guess...


And yeah poki-I have noticed the aesthetic tendencies in the INTJ women I have known especially...and in my father in law as well oddly...

*turns shoulder to give a target to hit and distract from other areas I would not like to be hit* *can see it in a way, but dont want to go down that thought right now and be able to actually agree, give examples, etc. *

 

[sculpting]

*turns shoulder to give a target to hit and distract from other areas I would not like to be hit* *can see it in a way, but dont want to go down that thought right now and be able to actually agree, give examples, etc. *

chicken... yeah, nobody likes to talk about our icky sides...

 

[Poki]

chicken... yeah, nobody likes to talk about our icky sides...

Nah, just testing the water. I dont mind my icky side, its the other sides I struggle with

Back on topic, lol: A Question for E/INTJ - what is the attraction?

 

[Rebe]

Yes, that is the standard grip idea which focuses on the last function. But it doesnt fit quite right as it says I would turn into an ISTJ under stress. When you stress out enfps we extrovert Te-like an estj, not an ISTJ. We become a bit bitchy, tyrannical, and are very quick to make decisions. We are also arrogant, bossy, erratically critical, dont want to listen to others and even combative and a bit aggressive. Very immature Te dom mannerismsnot aux Te mannerisms like an ISTJ.

It seems when you stress out INFPs, the become very rigid and prickly-like an ISTJ inspector-but an inspector of adherence to very particular Fi rules? Things become black/white wrong/right based upon the particular Fi ruleset of the INFP.

Hmm, I don't know. But what's funny is that ... I have been in stress mode for half a year now and my ISTJ friend told me that I have been becoming more and more like her, lol! We suddenly agreed on a lot of things. But I don't know about your theory...hmmm... Because if I become ISTJ when stressed, I'd have unhealthy Si traits or extreme Si traits but I was and am definitely using Te to solve my problems.