If Christians Were Being Lied To, Would We/They Know It?

[Siúil a Rúin]

For me the experience of losing my original religion was very liberating, and bracing at the same time. It was the sense of having all training wheels, crutches, excuses, and even support at last and finally gone. I was alone, and needed to make my own way in the spiritual landscape. And I did. When I "re-found" religion - or more accurately - spirituality, it was so different, it almost didnt' look like spirituality at first. Now it feels like I have come home after a lengthy and eye-opening period of wandering.

There was that aspect for me especially because the one I belonged to did have a lot of stressful aspects to it about the "end of time". I felt relieved to not be trying to make sense of certain issues that were causing me cognitive dissonance, especially ones in conflict with reason.

The grieving portion involved having a feeling of God as a personal friend, and so there was a loss of connection and friendship that had gotten me through difficult times.

 

[Numbly Aware]

I sometimes go to church just to debate with the Christians there. I mask myself as one, they never know. So yeah I don't think they know when they're being lied to.

 

[five sounds]

Think, if somebody really did mean Christians harm and there was such a thing as sin, then should lies told not be alarm bells warning of a wolf in sheep's clothing?
In our hearts, we know where babies comes from and how they get there, we also know why people stay dead.
Would serious lies on this natural level be a tell tale sign of a foe?

The Virgin Birth.
Resurrection Beyond the Grave.
"The Devil is the father of all lies."

If these were found to all be false yet so in the face of the believer, wouldn't that be some sinister form of assault against Christians on a spiritual level if they've got their whole universe turned upside down by a book? I'm not suggesting to believers to not believe; but I don't want believers following lies to interpret just on an off chance that it's rooted in an evil working against us/them.

yes. the spirit is the tester of all truth. if Christians are relying on their own understanding, they will be subject to falling for a whole host of lies, and many do. it's the reason the pharisees didn't recognize Jesus and put him to death.

 

[Coriolis]

yes. the spirit is the tester of all truth. if Christians are relying on their own understanding, they will be subject to falling for a whole host of lies, and many do. it's the reason the pharisees didn't recognize Jesus and put him to death.

But if they rely on the understanding of others, they are subject to falling for others' lies, deception, and innocently ignorant errors.

 

[five sounds]

But if they rely on the understanding of others, they are subject to falling for others' lies, deception, and innocently ignorant errors.

Exactly.

 

[Coriolis]

Exactly.

So what are you suggesting? If believers are to rely neither on their own understanding, or on the understanding of others, what then?

 

[five sounds]

So what are you suggesting? If believers are to rely neither on their own understanding, or on the understanding of others, what then?

The spirit, through prayer and scripture. With time, this gives you the spirit of discernment so that listening to your thoughts and those of others, recognizing their fallibility, you will be guided to the truth.

 

[Coriolis]

The spirit, through prayer and scripture. With time, this gives you the spirit of discernment so that listening to your thoughts and those of others, recognizing their fallibility, you will be guided to the truth.

Hmm . . . I don't see this as much different from trusting in one's own understanding. Trusting oneself doesn't mean one makes choices in a vacuum. We always learn, experience, question, consider what others can teach us, but ultimately we need to reflect on all that and synthesize it in our own understanding, and make the choices we are willing to live with. In this sense, trusting the spirit is like listening to our "higher self".

 

[Fluffywolf]

If I have something similar to a spirit in that sense, I've crushed it underfoot a long time ago.

For me it is simple. I fail to see the need to rely on anything that is questionable. It isn't one of my basic needs and in my opinion it isn't one of anyone elses basic needs either. It is an artificial indoctrination. People are not inherently reliant on 'spirituality', but are taught to rely on it.

 

[Kanra Jest]

There's a distinction between religion and spirituality. One can be spiritual without religion, as well as religious without spiritual. .

 

[five sounds]

Hmm . . . I don't see this as much different from trusting in one's own understanding. Trusting oneself doesn't mean one makes choices in a vacuum. We always learn, experience, question, consider what others can teach us, but ultimately we need to reflect on all that and synthesize it in our own understanding, and make the choices we are willing to live with. In this sense, trusting the spirit is like listening to our "higher self".

It's a central principle to Christian theology. The spirit being an external force, not one's higher self, but rather the Holy Spirit that is given to those who seek it. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and he will make your path straight."

 

[Coriolis]

It's a central principle to Christian theology. The spirit being an external force, not one's higher self, but rather the Holy Spirit that is given to those who seek it. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and he will make your path straight."

That is at best -- a hypothesis, at worst -- wishful thinking. Not being a Christian, I have found no benefit in accepting such a perspective. In reality, it all seems to come down to the same thing, and what we choose to call it becomes a matter of semantics.

 

[Mole]

We know very little about the life of Jesus however we do know a lot about the theology of Christ.

The theology of Christ is not based on evidence and reason but rather it is based on fantasy.

Christians do though make the false claim that their fantasy is true.

 

[draon9]

They would not

 

[Mole]

It's a central principle to Christian theology. The spirit being an external force, not one's higher self, but rather the Holy Spirit that is given to those who seek it. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and he will make your path straight."

Since the Western Enlightenment of the 18th century, we have learnt to lean on evidence and reason rather than the mysticism of religion, and as a result we have created modern medicine, liberal democracy, human rights, the freedom of the slaves, the emancipation of women, modern economics and plenty for the first time in history, we have created science and modern literature, art, theatre, sculpture, and ballet, not to mention music. We understand we were not created by your Lord but by natural selection, we understand the beginning and end of the universe. We understand the very smallest parts of our universe with quantum mechanics, and the very largest part of our universe with general relativity.

So rather than trusting in the Lord with all our heart, we leant on evidence and reason from the Western Enlightenment and created the modern world we see around us.

And yet we are entranced by age old superstitions like astrology and mbti. Why is that?

 

[geedoenfj]

I don't care, I ought to find out after I die..
I tend to judge people on how fair they're being to others rather than if they believe Jesus was God etc.

 

[wool]

Satan sought to instill a doubt of divine truthfulness within the mind of Eve in the garden of Eden, which caused mankind to fall from Grace. I wonder what sort of spirit prompted someone to create a thread such as this?

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't care, I ought to find out after I die..
I tend to judge people on how fair they're being to others rather than if they believe Jesus was God etc.

I spent a lot of years in the church under all the doctrinal language, but eventually that's essentially where I ended up as well. People's actions and how they approach others and life in general are going to say a lot more about their heart and character than a laundry list of doctrinal points that one is being forced to accept as true regardless of whether they can be justified or what the ramifications of those points are.

Hmm . . . I don't see this as much different from trusting in one's own understanding. Trusting oneself doesn't mean one makes choices in a vacuum. We always learn, experience, question, consider what others can teach us, but ultimately we need to reflect on all that and synthesize it in our own understanding, and make the choices we are willing to live with. In this sense, trusting the spirit is like listening to our "higher self".

Yes, the reality is that all choices and decisions come through the filter of self. We have to hear something, we have to see something, we have to experience something, and then we have to evaluate, process, and make decisions about it. It seems more like people potentially conflate the voice of the spirit with their own voice; there is really no way to tell them apart that isn't just another list of presuppositions about how the whole thing is supposed to work.

Satan sought to instill a doubt of divine truthfulness within the mind of Eve in the garden of Eden, which caused mankind to fall from Grace. I wonder what sort of spirit prompted someone to create a thread such as this?

Could it also be....

 

[Coriolis]

Satan sought to instill a doubt of divine truthfulness within the mind of Eve in the garden of Eden, which caused mankind to fall from Grace. I wonder what sort of spirit prompted someone to create a thread such as this?

Actually, the Goddess imparted life wisdom to Eve through her messenger, the serpent. Part of the purpose of the Biblical garden of Eden story is to make the three of them - Goddess, Eve, and serpent - look bad. To vilify what was sacred in existing religion, to make way for the God of the Bible.

 

[wool]

Actually, the Goddess imparted life wisdom to Eve through her messenger, the serpent. Part of the purpose of the Biblical garden of Eden story is to make the three of them - Goddess, Eve, and serpent - look bad. To vilify what was sacred in existing religion, to make way for the God of the Bible.

That is gnostic belief. It's Luciferian, and the truth upside down. Satan, the userper, took everything Biblical and flipped it. He is not creative.