Why is Fi the most devauled or unappreciated function?

[PeaceBaby]

We live in a nation that appreciates individualism over community though. I guess I would want to ask you directly how would you know Fi was being dismissed or undervalued? What does that look like?

Individualism has become an Fe value. Ironic, no?

 

[Starry]

Individualism has become an Fe value. Ironic, no?

Yes! thank you. Culture is strong in its influence...I don't think people appreciate this enough.

 

[Starry]

I did actually mean that individualism has become a bit of a superficial thing, it's not actually in its entirety valued. So I was saying something in the same vein as PB.

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]
Invalidation isn't malicious though, it's usually born out of lack of insight or carelessness. Not saying she is a bad person, as I'm sure I would be prone to doing that as well, even though I'm not trying to hurt anyone.
No I wouldn't really say a statement such as "show me a soft spoken 4" because it would give the impression that if you're soft spoken you cannot be a 4. Which is far from true, because the theory itself says nothing about whether being soft-spoken makes you a four or no. I don't mean any offense and I'm not trying to say you are bad person, Starry, I just want to make it clear that such statement can trigger really awful feelings of invalidation or even emotional abuse. I do not want to go there because it feels like I do not exist to the other person. My wants, my needs, who I am simply becomes something the other can use to suit his or her own image of me and I am left screaming in the dark with a situation worse than death, because it really does make me want to die, but I have been there just a few months back and I won't do it. But it makes me feel completely hopeless. And I really don't want to be berated by anyone for being "triggered" either. Reason only helps in making a better decision, but the emotional scarring and pain is there, it doesn't go away. I went to the very end to try to fix those in me, to reconcile those parts in me but they wouldn't.

Do not ask me not to engage you and then speak of me indirectly. Entertaining the possibility that someone is mistyped on a typology website is neither rude nor....cowardly for that matter and if I were you I would get used to it.

What you have done above, however...is both.

 

[Evo]

I don't want to talk anymore because you misunderstand me and will continue to ignore my boundaries because of being on defense.

Im not completely sure that i know what the OP is asking...

But this seems like an example of why Fi has been devalued in my life before. I was speaking to my boss once, and clearly stated a boundary/value that i did not want being crossed. (Which I think you did a great job in this case, btw) And my boss refused to listen.

For me Fi doesn't "speak up" unless it's triggered by something. I figured that's what you meant earlier by saying it was "quiet" or "soft spoken?" Perhaps not.

 

[Blackout]

Yes, I hear what you are saying. Your error in taking this question and thread to a more successful dicussion-oriented space is asking it with the phrase "the most" devalued or unappreciated function. Fe dom or aux types by their very wiring are the most likely to see their type as being devalued when any kind of negative discussion takes place since the nature of the function has an expectation about how those kinds of discussions are allowed to take place. However, in society, rather than just looking through the limited lens of the forum, there's so much affirmation out there for the Je - Pi / Pi - Je paradigm that it's difficult to argue that Fe is "shat" upon. Fe enjoys a broad societal acceptance that Fi simply seldom sees extended to dom or aux users.

Additionally, and I find it interesting, because it's a double-standard I see get played out repetitively on the forum, in a thread about Fe, a deviation to talk about Fi within that context would be seen as "selfish". "This thread is NOT about Fi" is a complaint that would be readily levelled. But here we are in a thread about Fi, but apparently you can just come in and talk about any other function and posit that those other functions have got it harder as a reply. Always fascinating to watch it play out. No offence to those who desire to take the discussion there, because I personally don't mind tangents at all, just a values-based contradiction and pattern I see frequently.

So, Blackout, in our current world, no, there often isn't an appreciation for the role Fi plays, until the role is sorely needed. Je - Pi / Pi - Je are simply not as "shat" upon in the "real world" since those functions constitute much of the structure and tapestry of North American mainstream culture and societal expectation. Yes, Je - Pi / Pi - Je take flak here on the forum because people come here to vent and complain about the negative qualities of these functions in a way that would possibly induce deep censure out loud in "real-life". That however does not mean this complaint extends out in "real-life" to the same degree since the consequences would need to be weighed.

We are all wired the way we're wired though OP and there is a place for you; you've noted there are challenges so part of the key to solving them is in that identification. Take it further from just noting it and being frustrated about it - what would you need to do to solve this inner feeling of unappreciation?

Oh---well maybe "most" was just the closet word I reached for.

To be honest, I used wording like that to make this thread more controversial. It's true. I always do bad things, I think my Fi is underrepresented in myself. But I'm also sarcastic and never entirely honest.

If real life is without beauty, reason or truth, then do I disavow all meaning entirely and live a life of mindless hedonism? if so, I would not simply due that, but cast myself into romantic despair and nihilism.

 

[Blackout]

Is this something that can really be spoken about with out causing an uproar, though? again everyone always wants to make it Fi vs Fe.

Anyway, since generally my main or dominant function is Fi and primarily I go through the world collecting data and making value based judgements around or about what I perceive I find it so peculiar that often it's met with dismay, strife and outrage when all I am doing is generally reporting with m findings all together. Such areas of focus that Fi may naturally focus on are usually or quite often dismissed or ignored all together and I find that strange.

There are areas, ones that quite often are considered "subjective" that generally are often the most often the first to come under scrutiny, shame and quite often just ignored all together or considered and deemed unimportant and in that way I think not only is Fi, but the topics that could be associated with it as well are often then not deemed as unimportant.

But I sort of see the two being connected or the same in a way.

But I would say part of the dismissal also comes from what I see as being routinely what Fi has been come to be thought of as, but is not always the true understanding of the function, such as "personal feelings" and a tendency towards being unrealistic and overly sentimental. I suppose I also challenge the convention that it's considered a not altogether practical function at all; or maybe perhaps that yes, it is unpractical, but that doesn't mean it's not without merit or use.

ERH NOES, I HAVE NOT FINISHED READING THIS THREAD THO

(OMG, I FEEL SO HORRIBLE MAKING A THREAD ENTIRELY ABOUT ONLY MY DOM FUCNTION, I AM SO SELF ABSROBED)

 

[Blackout]

Though (I forgot one thing) maybe Fi is not the right term or way to go about describing what I am thinking about and maybe there's another term or concept altogether that I do not know.

 

[Starry]

I never said you did anything rude or cowardly either and neither did I since speaking behind your back wasn't my intention. I don't want to talk anymore because you misunderstand me and will continue to ignore my boundaries because of being on defense. I never said you did something bad or cowardly <- and I have said this plenty of times. But I don't think you believe me in which case I do not want to talk anymore, because that will be incredibly harmful for me. [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

You have some serious issues. Seek help please.

 

[Jaguar]

Also Fi-doms tend be quiet, we don't assert ourselves.

Tell that to my INFP buddy who busted balls in politics for years.

 

[Evo]

[MENTION=14015]Urarienev[/MENTION]

Your last paragraph is exactly what I meant by soft-spoken.

I think it could have to do with a bunch of things. Not just one typing system, but perhaps MBTI and enneagram together, or even non typology related issues. *Shrugs*

My sister is an ixfp, and most of the ixfps I've met have been enneagram 9 fixed, if not 9 core. Imo that could have a lot to do with the whole "softer approach" thing. They seem to want to blend with people unless something crosses their values. None of them seem to be sx dom either. Just something I've noticed though.

I believe that 4's are within the reactive triad, and I have seen them be less soft spoken perhaps because of this...just something to keep in mind.

 

[Lady_X]

Tell that to my INFP buddy who busted balls in politics for years.

i'm with jag on this for sure. no one would ever accuse me of not asserting myself.
( also hey you! )

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I understand but they made it sound like if you are soft-spoken you are not a four. I have been super shame sensitive all my life and that is how it might behaviorally manifest. I don't stay quiet if I get hurt, and I get hurt a lot. Core 9s are a lot more...detached I think. By soft I didn't mean blend in, I meant afraid. And also generally speaking we are pretty easy-going so that can come across as a softness too.

I get what you're saying. You're incorporating enneagram into MBTI and extrapolating from that. You're not wrong, but you aren't clarifying yourself efficiently.

People think you are saying you think this is an absolute. I don't think you're saying that all are like that, but I am inferring that. You didn't differentiate, so people are coming at you and you are failing to see that distinction you didn't make.

 

[Evo]

I understand but they made it sound like if you are soft-spoken you are not a four.

That's because 4's are part of the reactive triad. Meaning that they, by nature, are considered reactive. Which alone, is not grounds enough to be considered timid or soft spoken.

I work with an xnfp 486. She's the most reactive person I know. She is not soft spoken or timid. She does however take things personally and feels slighted easily. She also has a very deeply caring side to her where she's an accepting person that will introvert with her feelings to make space for others.

There's a distinction here I think that's missing. 4s come in all shapes and sizes, as infps do. Perhaps other members were trying to convey that literal actions do not always translate over to type. MBTI is generally about how we metabolize information. Enneagram has a little more to do with core fears and motivations. All of which I'm guessing that you know. And all of which do not lead to perfect cookie cutter explanations for those motivations, etc..

I have been super shame sensitive all my life and that is how it might behaviorally manifest

When you say "that is how it might manifest" what do you mean by "that" exactly?

I don't stay quiet if I get hurt, and I get hurt a lot. Core 9s are a lot more...detached I think. By soft I didn't mean blend in, I meant afraid. And also generally speaking we are pretty easy-going so that can come across as a softness too.

Again, I think perhaps terms are being conflated here..

4's are withdrawn, being withdrawn does not necessarily mean that they're easy going. And it also doesn't contradict reactivity.

I'm not questioning your type here. So there's no need to defend that with me. I just like being on the same page. And that requires us getting to know the impressions we have of certain types and comparing them.

 

[Venus Rose]

You have some serious issues. Seek help please.

How very mature of you. Reminds me to not second guess myself again when I encounter a questionable personality.

 

[Pionart]

Fi just does their own thing... they don't get appreciated because they wandered off and no one even knows where they are.

 

[the state i am in]

i don't know if it's just not appreciated enough or the core work it is there to do is simply not getting done. Fi, and feeling intelligence in general, isn't to parade around values. sure, we make and articulate and share commitments to principles that help us communicate our priorities. but, at the end of the day, the importance of feeling intelligence is for holding space and truly LISTENING to hear underlying needs, deeper than simply the ways in which people act and communicate and assume as they, consciously or otherwise, pursue meeting them. Fi, in this way, is kind of the lead function in empathy, not just as compassion but as exploring it through dialogue.

in my own experience, both feeling types are often great listeners. learning how to work with their own listening process, and recognizing that Fi is more experiential and Fe is more interpretive, based on objectifying their own understanding and generally working backward from that to actually examine their own experience, just makes it easier to me for both to appreciate how they are two sides of the same coin. Fi is great at allowing, when it is connected to itself, and generally has offered me so much with helping teach me how to do that for myself. whereas, for me, Fe is this kind of ecological intelligence, this sense of predictive balance and harmony.

either way, emotional intelligence and well-being isn't really reducible to the way into feeling and need as much as the overall support, balance, and ability to truly relax and listen to the quieter stuff underneath all the clamor. and to recognize and appreciate the other side of the process. F is made to flow with and make the most of each other's talents, not to disrupt them.

 

[William K]

Warning : Forced analogy ahead because it sounds great in my head

Imagine having a toolbox with 8 tools inside. Each of us has a specific tool that we are most familiar with, are best with and uses it the most. Then there is also the one tool gathering cobwebs in a dark corner because we never seem to find any reason to use it. To me, that's what being underappreciated/devalued means. Is Fi the tool that is the most underused? I don't have any statistics to prove this but some thoughts as to why it may be true.

Several posts in the thread already mentioned that it's internal and hard to see the effects from the outside. Also, its effectiveness depends on its cooperation with the other 7 tools.
- It's a highly personalized tool and it's not precise (i.e. subjective). So for certain types of problems, it will not give the best results. And in the current world we live in, I would say that the majority of problems do not require it (or at least not as the leading tool). Fi-doms are rarer than other types (I read that on the Internet so it must be true). When most people have hammers as their favourite tool, everything looks like nails.
- It's a pain in the ass to learn to use. Imagine having a tool with no manuals and no YouTube instructional videos. We can probably attend a Coursera lesson in logical thinking, but Fi? We'll need to fly off in our X-Wing to Dagobah to look for Yoda or something. And since it's personal, even Yoda won't be able give you a 10-step routine to the Fi-side
- It doesn't bring in big bucks (I think I posted something about this a long time ago but too lazy to look it up). The positive things that Fi offers may be good for the soul but hey, we all need to make a living. There are more nails that need hammering and screws that need screwing than there is a need for plungers. But when the toilet gets clogged though...

 

[Ribonuke]

I personally feel like Fi evolved as an evolutionary shortcut to keep us from doing certain, abhorrent things; if you have a Fi-based morality that says that "killing is wrong", then you don't feel compelled to kill and are not killing off your competition, which may turn to potential ally/genetic partner in the future should circumstances change.

Some people see Fi as being somewhat obsolete due to the fact that when using other cognitive functions like Ti, you can use logic to realize "Hey, it makes more sense for me to leave this person alone than to kill them now, because I may need their help later." Therefore, why subject yourself to the mercy of instinct to steer your thinking?

Nevertheless, to lose it entirely is in many ways losing the very thing that makes us human; I can't really trust my own use of it, but that's why I still at least hear out my Fi every once in a while.

 

[Reborn Relic]

A lot of the things I value go against the grain, both in my childhood and nowadays, but they are more acceptable now than they used to be. That's why I always get irritated when I read people saying things like Fe is just blindly accepting what society values.

It's not necessarily blind, but when its eyes are open it's through Ti--an analysis of whether the values currently held are consistent with each other. For instance, an Fe user might think that it's wrong not to care for other people in need. That might be inconsistent with not letting in refugees from Islamic countries. Therefore, the Fe user will either qualify one of the values (e.g. "Care for those in your nation" or "care for those who share your values"), find a way to explain how one of them isn't being violated (foreign aid argument) or drop one (deciding that they ought to support the letting in of refugees).

An intelligent Fe user will quite likely find a way to do this that doesn't seem hive-minded. Less intelligent ones, less so. But the basis for those values is always going to be society, not themselves.

Their ability to act on the values that are transmitted to them also affects things--if they can't be conventionally acceptable or find it extremely difficult, they might look to a different "society", so to speak, and for less "moral" values (values that instead are more about how much something is worth aesthetically or personally) things like Si or Ni can come into play alongside Ti and hold them to previous standards, so if everybody likes pop now they might still hate it because nobody liked pop back in my day/nobody important likes pop.

Anyway, the bottom line is, consensus-seeking+inability to venture outside that consensus without support kind of makes it difficult to hold values that are against the grain, I think. People would force you to question those values even if you didn't mention them by saying and doing things contrary to those values. Speaking as someone who is Fe myself, that's not always easy to handle.

This may not be applicable to you, but then, you might not be an Fe type, and I've long thought that ISFJs use Fe differently to a certain degree (because they have Si first, they can use Fe-values acquired from sources far removed from the present--e.g. TV shows they watched as a kid)

I have a hard time understanding what Jung is talking about in that excerpt unless you can translate it into something easier for me to understand? I agree with "I can't think what I don't feel" but I'm not sure what the large bolded part is saying exactly because I'm stupid.

A'ight. Basically--Fe dominant types feel like their group derived values are personal values, because the two don't feel any different to them. They're equally intense, equally inward-out, and so on. Something felt very deeply and personally to them could be a group feeling. To me this sort of differs from what you were saying about questioning yourself, because questioning yourself implies that it's not quite as "Real" to you, if that makes sense. This might be because your Fe isn't dominant and you've got stronger Ti though.

More arguably: They won't cave to thoughts that contradict their values (at least not automatically--they might still be capable of doing that form of questioning, but if they don't do that questioning consciously it won't necessarily nag at them unless they're stressed), per "I can't think what I don't feel"--that was most likely said in response to a thought that contradicted their feelings--but instead cave more to emotional pressures--shaming, people of group A being given better treatment than group B and so on.