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[Fe] How is Fe a feeling function for the Fe user?

Kheledon

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You are NFJ ( [MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]) i think, and not SFJ. Therefore you value individuals and not groups.

Look at Zombies signature and you know he is a devil. You tell me what I am.

Well, I am definitely N and not S. You got that right. You can look at my signature and see that I am very poorly dualized on the N/S axis. I spend way too much time in my head, and not nearly enough time living in the moment and observing. Being N, however, does not (as I understand it) mean that I value individuals over groups. Quite the contrary. It's the aristocratic/democratic Reinin dichotomy that defines this quality. I am aristocratic (group-oriented) as are all members of the Beta and Delta quadrants. The Gamma and Alpha quadrants are democratic (individual-oriented).

Democrats (Alpha, Gamma):

- Democrat perceives and distinguishes himself primarily through personal qualities. Perceiving other people, their personal qualities are likewise primary for him (how close, interesting, pleasant or unpleasant this individual is to him personally; their intelligence, ideas, appearance, tastes, etc.). Because of this, individualism is inherent to the democrat: "I am I".
- Democrat forms his attitude toward a specific person based on their personal characteristics (authority, intellect, personal achievements, etc.). The democrat recognizes superiority of certain individuals drawing from their personal qualities. The relation of the democrat to another person will not be based on their belonging to one group or another, as well as on their relations to the representatives of these groups.
- Democratic types are not inclined to perceive people with whom they associate as representatives of a certain "circle of contacts", which possesses special characteristics, inherent precisely to the members of this circle.
- Democrat is not inclined to use expressions that generalize "group features" of certain individuals (for example, "a typical representative").

Aristocrats (Beta, Delta):

- The aristocrat frequently perceives and defines himself an other people through group associations (division into groups can occur based on almost any criteria: professional, which floor they live on, age, nationality, place of residence, etc.), for example: "I'm a representative of..." "This person is from such and such...". Collectivism is more inherent to the aristocrat.
- Their attitude toward another person forms under the influence of their attitude towards the group to which the person belongs. To the aristocrat, it is incomprehensible how it is possible to belong to two opposing groups at the same time: "You are either with us, or with them and against us".
- Aristocrat distinguished his "circle of contacts" by certain traits, realizes its certain "specialty".
- In speech aristocrat frequently use expressions like "group", "typical representative of", "our", "all of them are like that", etc.

Socionics - the16types.info - Reinin Dichotomies: Research Results

As for my friend and ally, [MENTION=25403]ZombieNinjaPirate[/MENTION], I thought his use of your words in his signature was hilarious, and I told him so. His being funny doesn't make him the devil, per se, but I suspect he could be if he wanted to.

;)
 

Mustafa

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ZNP-TBA

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[MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION] , sometimes I read your posts out loud and I swear, dude, it sounds like whack-a-mole rambling madness. :wack:
 

Mustafa

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[MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION] , sometimes I read your posts out loud and I swear, dude, it sounds like whack-a-mole rambling madness. :wack:
I read and write Norweigian and Arabic fluently as first and second language, English third, thats it. But I am proud of that.
 

Kheledon

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I had a little insight into this recently. My understanding is that both Fe and Te are functions that operate with an ever present awareness. Fe is just aware of the present emotional atmosphere, and values that information as relevant. My Te does not value that as relevant information. They are both tuned in to "a system" outside of themselves though. It's just a different system that each values.

Bingo! (or, as my sophisticated Ni would say, "That's it. The rebels are there!" Think Darth Vader in Episode V of Star Wars). Fe absorbs (neutrally) and then projects (subjectively) ethics/emotions/feeling based upon each Fe dom's individual and unique Fi values (buried deep in the subconscious of an Fe dom). Te absorbs (neutrally) and then projects (subjectively) logic/reason/problem-solution thinking based upon each individual Te dom's individual and unique Ti values (buried deep in the subconscious of a Te dom). That sounds spot-on to me.

This is asking Fe about Fi, in an Fi way haha. I find it funny haha.

This is, admittedly, a difficult concept to grasp. The question is whether we are consciously aware of our 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Model A functions. They are rarely (if ever) available to our mental loop functions for the purpose of vocalization and explanation, but they're still there, and the ones in the 7th and 8th positions are particularly strong yet subconscious. We do them naturally, without even thinking about it. We neither recognize them in ourselves nor in others, typically. We tend to ignore or dismiss them, but they're there, and they affect our behavior dramatically. I have strong Fi values, but I ignore them (take them for granted and assume, often wrongly, that others share them). If you are a Te dom, you would have strong Ti values, but you would also tend to ignore them (take them for granted and assume, often wrongly, that others share them). That's the typical manifestation of your 7th (ignoring) function (as I understand it).

That is my understanding of Fe as well.

Cool. I should add that Fe OUTPUT is highly influenced by the subjective, internalized, Fi values in the subconscious id of an Fe dom (7th, ignoring function). That explains why Fe is a neutral or objective INPUT function, but a subjective and manipulative OUTPUT function after, and only after, the Fe dom has "processed" its neutral Fe input through its subconscious and highly subjective Fi value system.

The same should apply to a Te dom. Te looks outside of itself for data and does so in a neutral, objective way when it's operating as an INPUT function, but then, once that data is "processed" through a Te dom's highly subjective yet subconscious Ti, it emerges as an extraverted OUTPUT function that is highly subjective and manipulative with the same "type" of goal as Fe when it acts as an OUTPUT function (i.e. to change the world by effecting logical and rational changes to the world through solving problems). T is all about problem/solution.

I said, "My feelings are little more than the feelings I pick up from others (or loneliness, the feeling I get when I can not pick up the feelings of others)." To this you responded as follows:

This is the part I suppose I have a harder time absorbing.

Upon further reflection, I agree that my statement needs clarification and greater sophistication. I do feel, and I do have, my own feelings, but (to me) they always seem like feelings that others have "imposed" upon me--feelings I didn't want and would never choose, but that I can't help but feeling as a result of what others have reflected back to me. When I am ignored, I am hurt (and I can dwell on this excessively). When I am betrayed by an alleged ally, I am hurt (and I can dwell on this excessively), but, in each case, my own feelings are inherently reactive. They don't originate from me (in my mind). They are a result of how others have treated me (and this applies to both the pleasant and unpleasant feelings that I experience). I externalize them. The word "extravert" is cognate with externalization. I hope this makes sense, but I can imagine that an introvert would have difficulty grasping the nature of this dynamic.

Thanks for the superb and thoughtful response. :hifive:
 

ZNP-TBA

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Fe absorbs (neutrally) and then projects (subjectively) ethics/emotions/feeling based upon each Fe dom's individual and unique Fi values (buried deep in the subconscious of an Fe dom). Te absorbs (neutrally) and then projects (subjectively) logic/reason/problem-solution thinking based upon each individual Te dom's individual and unique Ti values (buried deep in the subconscious of a Te dom). That sounds spot-on to me.

Isn't this trying to crowbar Fe and Te in as perceiving functions? I thought an ENFJ's sense of internal validation/valuation comes from Ti and not Fi? Am I missing something here? If judging functions are both judging and perceiving then what's the point of N and S perceiving functions? Do N and S actually judge too? If so this would force me to reestablish my whole understanding of Jungian typology from the ground up. :doh:
 

fetus

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Hey.

SFJs care about individuals, too...
Fe users can be deep, too...

:shrug:
Take everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt.
 

Mustafa

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Hey.

SFJs care about individuals, too...
Fe users can be deep, too...

:shrug:
Take everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt.
ESFJ care about harmony between the others, when they care about individuals thats their family. Thats when they are deep. And when they teach their children socializing, talking about the weather and life is not deep. Shallow is prejudiced to be bad!
 

Tilt

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ESFJ care about harmony between the others, when they care about individuals thats their family. Thats when they are deep. And when they teach their children socializing, talking about the weather and life is not deep. Shallow is prejudiced to be bad!

Nahh ESFJ 2s are usually one of the most likely types to go out of their way to help out random strangers because there is a sense of caring about humanity as a whole.

They can and are deep when they let you in... they just are less likely to get all "existential" or "philosophical" on you out of the blue like an INXP might. So the way you are using shallow really does have a negative connotation.
 

Mustafa

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[MENTION=26163]Protege[/MENTION] We cant be different yet the same. I acknowledge that with their shallowness they serve a purpouse which I can't.
 

Tilt

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[MENTION=26163]Protege[/MENTION] We cant be different yet the same. I acknowledge that with their shallowness they serve a purpouse which I can't.

Shallow is not the best word to use...it has a highly negative connotation... Breadth is much better. Introspection is what makes people "deep" or not.
 

Mustafa

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Well is shallow and broad area of water, Fe. Fi, deep and consentrated.
 

Dreamer

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I haven't had the chance to really read over everyone's responses, so much to read, I love it! But just to quickly comment on [MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION] and shallow versus deep, I get what you mean, I think. Again, I haven't had the time to really read through all the comments. It's the same comparison made between any of the introverted functions with their extroverted counterparts. Ne is often described as broad, or one can say "shallow", Te is described as quick and efficient, not necessarily the function with the most thought out and perfected plan of attack or system to carry out.

Shallow does carry with it a negative tone, but when I read it in your initial comment, I didn't take it to mean that Fe was anything inferior to Fi or that Fe users don't feel anything deep. That's just crazy talk!
 

Tilt

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Well is shallow and broad area of water, Fe. Fi, deep and consentrated.

OK. Shallow, at least in the US, often implies "lack of real substance" when in reference to people and personality. It's usually seen as a criticism.
 

Tilt

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I haven't had the chance to really read over everyone's responses, so much to read, I love it! But just to quickly comment on [MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION] and shallow versus deep, I get what you mean, I think. Again, I haven't had the time to really read through all the comments. It's the same comparison made between any of the introverted functions with their extroverted counterparts. Ne is often described as broad, or one can say "shallow", Te is described as quick and efficient, not necessarily the function with the most thought out and perfected plan of attack or system to carry out.

Shallow does carry with it a negative tone, but when I read it in your initial comment, I didn't take it to mean that Fe was anything inferior to Fi or that Fe users don't feel anything deep. That's just crazy talk!
This is the part that rubbed me the wrong way. We are conflating two different things with shallow. Fe focuses more on the commonalities between people and Fi focuses more on the unique individual differences, but really they are different sides of the same coin.
ESFJ care about harmony between the others, when they care about individuals thats their family. Thats when they are deep. And when they teach their children socializing, talking about the weather and life is not deep. Shallow is prejudiced to be bad!
 

Tilt

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Here is a post from [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] that summed up Fe in comparison to Fi quite nicely.
I have been reading much of this, but didn't quite make it through all 20 pages, so apologies if this has already been stated by someone.

Lenore Thompson and Socionics both present a function-attitude model which presents what I think is a truth about these preferences....Basically, if you are Fe-dom (as an example), then Fi is not all that unconscious or mysterious, etc. Rather, you don't feel a need to use that feeling-attitude much because for you, Fe covers it. But you actually would access that part of your psychology far more comfortably than Ti, which would reside at the entrance to the unconscious (ironically, giving it a greater pull on your psychology, BECAUSE it is under less conscious control). Likewise, a Fi type can access Fe pretty easily if so inclined, although like all other functions, it will be in the service of the ego (in this case Fi, or perhaps Pe). Fi and Fe types appear to dismiss each other because, well, they do that within their own psychology. This is true of all functions with different attitudes, IMO. They threaten each-other far less than they simply see one as a less effective way of dealing with that particular function (in this case - Feeling). Most of the time, that means they tolerate and even respect the other attitude pretty easily.

This sort of brings us to the whole thing about personal values. YES, personal values DO NOT equal Fi. They don't define it, are not exclusive to it, etc. They are not even exclusive to Feeling. I think part of this confusion stems from what was originally meant by that phrase. It is often interpreted to mean "what an individual determines is important", when I think it simply meant "determining what value is in relation to the human condition". It is personal in that it has a human quality, not that it stems from an individual.
The former is something almost all people do - they know their own likes/dislikes and have various things that they deem important or unimportant, etc. The latter indicates a Feeling focus, but not Fe or Fi, just Feeling in general. It is using the human experience as the gauge. Thinking types prefer to gauge things impersonally, which doesn't eclipse their having personal values or moral standards, but their decision making is not focused on what something means to the human experience.

So the primary difference between Fi and Fe is the attitude, as they serve the same function (and why they view the other as semi-redundant). This boils down to the part of the human experience each focuses on, what they use as the gauge.
While this is an oversimplification, I think it is better and more helpful than many other simple ways of differentiating the two:
- Fi focuses on the space within people
- Fe focuses on the space between people

Basically, if you wanted to understand the value of things in relation to the inner human experience, then who is your best case study? Who can you thoroughly explore internally with no holds barred? Yourself! The self is the prototype for the inner experience for the Fi-dom. They are using the self as a gauge for what value things have in relation to the inner human condition. They spend a lot of time building and refining this gauge. Emotions are examined to understand what needs of the inner experience are being signaled as met or violated. They recognize the parallels between the inner states of all people (much as the physical human body has essentially the same parts and basic needs but can look very different and require different ways of meeting those needs). The focus on unique preferences is just recognizing how the same core needs can look so different and be met differently, but the main point is that there ARE those bigger values which are a truth beyond the self. So that is Fi....something of a paradox :D.

Similarly, Fe, being extroverted, wants to understand the value of things in relation to the shared, interactive human experience. How does Fe type go about that? They have to interact and observe interaction. They have to learn about people as they are in relationships, not in their isolated internal states. They have to ask: how do people relate and connect and what are the results of this? I think it is less about a group than dynamics, which can just be two people. This doesn't mean the person doesn't hold personal preferences or values, but they just focus less on it, because that is not their gauge for the bigger meaning (something Fi types are actually focused on more also). To refine that gauge means you have to be in that space a lot. This doesn't mean they ignore their own emotional reactions either. Rather they don't study what it means for themselves so much as how it affects that "space between". How it affects that space is, in fact, often what spurs a genuine emotion within them, because the emotion is just a signal of a value being met/violated. Example: affecting that space positively is met with a positive emotion.

Remember that extroversion is much more in "real time". Introverted functions are conceptual and seek to bypass constraints of time/culture/situation/etc. Extroverted attitudes form according what is happening in a specific context. This is why we associate Fe so much with cultural values, although that is NOT what it is. Rather, Fe is gauging value using the external dynamics between people, so it is ACTIVE. It shapes as much as it is shaped. It HAS to be open to affect and affecting to be an accurate gauge. Fi is less active outwardly; it is resisting affect and declining to affect in order to keep a purity of the prototype (the natural self, untouched by outer contexts). Neither can do this 100%, but it is what the focus is on.

Now, for IxFJs, this can be murky because they are introverts and the inner experience is the part of reality they focus on. For an introvert, the inner world is more real, it is what is valid and trustworthy. Since these individuals will have more focus on their inner world, and less tendency to seek interaction, then that may make the lines between Fe and Fi very unclear (as there are not perfectly clear lines to begin with, as the Thompson and Socionics models illustrate). I think what can help distinguish this is observing the "space" you tend to focus on when determining value that is NOT a matter of personal preference. Is it the self as a prototype or is the dynamic between people? Which do you see as leading to a more reliable end for determining a bigger value? Perhaps you recognize both roads go there, but which are you inclined to take?

Personally, I do feel many ISFJs mistype because of misunderstandings of Fe. In a previous thread on ESFJs mistyping as ENFP, I briefly explained why I think ISFJs sometimes mistype as INFP (more than INFJs would). That is not the focus here, and neither is Fi, but I think it all relates to how Fe is misrepresented.
 

fetus

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ESFJ care about harmony between the others, when they care about individuals thats their family. Thats when they are deep. And when they teach their children socializing, talking about the weather and life is not deep. Shallow is prejudiced to be bad!

I could try to write down all the things wrong with this, but I can't. I'm tired and I can't deal with the stereotypes and crusading for typology. Sorry.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Don't take this as an attack, but more as a question coming from an outsider, genuine in getting this extroverted feeling function figured out. I can clearly understand Fe as a device for getting things done, similar to Te, but through a different mode.

But when it comes to understanding it as a feeling function for the user, what does that mean? All I can make of it at this point, is that Fe users feel this internal anxiety and just general discomfort when their external environment isn't emotionally harmonious or ideal to them. I totally understand that, I personally tend to just remove myself from the situation versus actively fixing it. And while I know everyone has inner feelings, duh, we're not robots here, I'm still having a hard time connecting Fe to the sort of internal feelings one feels with Fi. It can't just be an Fi user's domain, to feel feelings like that right??

I'm inferior Fe, but I don't think of it as internal anxiety. There is no anxiety.

There is a sense of "fair play" with Fe that differs from Fi "fair play".

Fair play being judged by the majority of what people may think isn't right or what affects the majority. Fi judges fair play by what the person themselves deems to be unreasonable.

Fe may judge zoomed out rather than zoomed in like Fi.

Someone is late to work often. This messes everyone else up so they have to double work load until the person comes in. An Fe person may see this as the person circumventing "fair play" as they would not like this done to them repeatedly.

An Fi person may look at it with questions about what the person is going through to make them so late. And depending upon the answer, they may be okay with the lateness. They may decide to pull back and conserve efforts until the person is on board again.

Fe doesn't do that because it is outward show. They consider that person disrespectful to 'everyone' but really everyone is the Fe user ;)

Fe assumes that there are many others who feel the same as they and they are accurate most times. In a generic sense.

Now, if that person came to Fe user and explained reasons for lateness - the Fe user would likely make adjustments for that person!!

Because they took time to explain details and didn't make Fe fill in the blanks. It is a...respect thing.

I don't know. This could all be junk. Haha. I'm basing this off an ESFJ I know and an ENFP. :shrug:
 
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