[INTJ] ENFPS and INTJs

[grey_beard]

Hi all. New user here. The single greatest attribute that my INTJ makes to my life daily is his inexplicable ability to pull me from my NF loop cycle. He just states something so concise and true that I can't continue overanalyzing. It puts NF in complete halt with his NT. No one has ever been able to do that for me. For instance - My ex was and INFJ. He was great except in that when I flew into my emotional cycle his NF competed with my NF and we both were in a "one-up" power struggle. This is eventually what fortified our great divide. With my INTJ - he is very attentive to my needs in practical ways that I appreciate. He's a doting lovah! <big blinky doe eyes>

Te is *very* good at reining in errant Ne at times. Provided the Ni doesn't start chasing around the Ne like a cat with a laser pointer...

 

[grey_beard]

Yes - he and I talked about it just this past weekend. He said "I don't see any red flags at all". So I took that as a good thing.

You're in like Flynn. Calm down. Given proper neglect, an INTJ should provide you with years of trouble-free service.

 

[Hapyniss]

Te is *very* good at reining in errant Ne at times. Provided the Ni doesn't start chasing around the Ne like a cat with a laser pointer...

Interesting...Expound? Please, with something more tangible. I think that way. His Ni would chase my Ne around like a cat and I have the laser pointer?

 

[grey_beard]

Since you are new I will be completely open.


It is not possible to separate them because of they ARE basically one thing. I am my knowledge and use it to make this world a better place, the only thing that is real emotion here is actually my drive to actually do that. Beneath this there is still a personality but it is often not visible to others even I try to show it. This generally applys to all women and not just ENFPs. My problem is that I am INTJ towards both MBTI and Ennegram since my enneagram tritype stands for "The technical expert" that is basically the most robotic combination in ennegram.





We can say we are all individuals but this is me down to last letter. I am person that already in kindergarten was able to draw a correct picture of solar system, I have learned to play chess before I learned how to read. All of my proffesional interests were closely related to science, technology and management issues. I am person with which you can talk about nature of the unviverse, multimedia and broadcasting, formation of mountans, environment science and climate change etc. However I do not value knowledge purely for the sake of knowledge instead I use it to make concrete changes around me and I demand debates in order to prove that I am right. I want the best solution possible and do not really care about dinamics of power on personal level.


The fact is that my entire life as a whole was defined with emotional emptiness and horror. I was born in communist dictatorship and I grew up right next to the largest war zone in Europe after WW2. Already at the elemtary school age I witnessed how planes destroyed presidential office in my country. For me that had a huge philosophical consequence since this was a direct evidence of how much authority is just a social convention that has no ground in reality and I therefore do not get my heart involved in social norms or daily politics as normal people. Especially since I have studied geology enviromental science enough to know that the concept of modern society probably is not sustainable at physical and chemical level, what makes it hard for me to empathize with my environmet. I have even made a classification of scenarios of how human history will end.

My family was never trully involved in my life. My parents thought that everybody has a right to be their own person so they have left me be. What in the end turned out that emotional sense I have rised myself the best way I could. Especially since I do not have any siblings or even cousins, I also never even had a pet. Since the computers became relevant at that time my parents gave me a computer that rised me as one of its own. (so to speak). However with computer the computer games came into house so I have embraced that as well. Therefore already at the elementary schools age I was into games that were scary or too complex even to grown ups. One one hand I have spent large part of my childhood in hell slashing and blowing up monsters while one the other hand I was creating military structures and infrastructure, making budgets and led the offensives into neighbouring territories. Over the years I actually became so good it this that no body around me wanted to play with me.

Through out my life I had a few friendships but all of them lacked very deep and intimate component. Also it is striking that all of my connections were with guys, women always decided to stay away from me. For example back in school they were inviting everyone from the class to birthday party except me or they have openly ignored my "hi". The truth is that I have never managed to get along with women since I am somehow "scary". However my life made me isolated in some other ways as well. One year it even happened that I was the only student in the class, just me and teachers the whole year long. Also it happned that they have throw me out of university because they let me in because of administrative mistake, so I had to start from scratch.

I mean there is so much to tell but for now I will skip the details. The fact is that I am impressonation of certain INTJ stereotypes and I am basically only one lab accident from becoming a super vilian from movies. We can joke about it but the fact is that all off the elements are there. What is funny is that people watch such movies and see those intimidating traits in me since they are pretty visable if the converation has any depth. If I judge by my expriences ENFPs have discomfort from even thinking about having this kind of lifestory and they as well women in general seem to think that they are not up to the challange of dating me. (or they do not want that at all) I like ENFP girls but they tend to run away from me. My armor scares them since it makes me immune to basically everything, what is a a consequences of the fact that I had to become immune to everthing due to life circumstances. However none the less it would be soooo nice to have ENFP gf since there was never love in my life.

Not meant as insulting, but as fellow-INTJ-humor. Have you seen *this*?

 

[grey_beard]

Interesting...Expound? Please, with something more tangible. I think that way. His Ni would chase my Ne around like a cat and I have the laser pointer?

Precisely. ENFPs (like INFPs) appear to outsiders to be random topic generators, and the INTJ mind runs around seeking the common element that led from one topic to the next. They may be mistaken, but the xNFP happily plays along even so, because it is rare for an xNFP to have a conversation with someone of the opposite sex with depth, who does not immediately dismiss them as a fluffy bunny or a flake.

 

[Hapyniss]

You're in like Flynn. Calm down. Given proper neglect, an INTJ should provide you with years of trouble-free service.

Hilarious<musically spoken>! Calm down? - tell that to my Ne. Umph! I took some of ceecee's advice and told him, indirectly, that I was starting to develop feelings for him. So initially I believe he'll freak out about the "space" comment missing the feelings one entirely. As he re-reads throughout the next couple of days - it will strike him that I divulged my inner self there. That should get me through the weekend without the need to pester him as I have to work anyways. I'll probably hear from him after he's processed. At which event he'll probably be celebrating about his master plan (landing the ENFP soul-mate) coming to fruition in his secret laboratory in a *non-existent* basement of his apartment complex. (Until you pull the secret lever - like this...errrreeek.) See, told ya. But I'll play coy. My big PinkyPie doe eyes are good at that. (What secret lab?)

 

[Captain_Invincible]

Can someone here explain to me what Ne is?
I lose my mind trying to figure it out.
To me, it has no deep meaning,
It's being high on Intuition.
But yes, it has some good ideas,
and concepts sometimes.
But it confuses me...

 

[ceecee]

You mean something like this:

https://information2share.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/calvin-and-hobbes.jpg?w=614&h=383

Just like.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Not meant as insulting, but as fellow-INTJ-humor. Have you seen *this*?

Nope.
But probably because of cultural differences I also do not see that as particularly funny.

 

[Hapyniss]

You have a problem of perspective since now you have met the person that is for years investing into his personal-social skills and himself as general. I have deliberately tried to make myself more desirable and it worked ... in the case you met me a few years ago this conversation would look pretty differently. The fact is that now I am prepared to engage women more directly and we will see what will come out of that.




I never trully understood what makes me "evil" or cold etc. so I am not sure what to say. However people were complaining about this.
This can come from anything: using sarcasm on the teacher everyone was afraid (students and other teachers), even some parents of other kids came to me and said that I am their hero since they would never dare to do that to this woman. It can be also that I wrote a school essay that involved chainsaws, hell and car chases. Once I have even used my planning skills in order to hidde in the female locker room of my class, what has allowed me to catch the ladies with their pants down.


It can also be because I have entered my 30s and I have never been trully in love and I am not showing clear signs or regret about that (even if I am not actually physically unattractive). I am pretty good at shooting down peoples arguments and I may even do that just for fun sometimes. I have the love for dark, shocking and bizzare things. I can be very controlling if needed, for example during college education I was a group strategist in all group assignemnts, but people liked me because there was clear lack of drama and we always had very good final results. I know about science and politics much more than a average person. I often point out/notice what people are trying to hide. I can be invisible and sneak up on people even if I do not try to do that. I have played plenty of video games through out life so once it happned that I had 3 of my friends all teamed up against me but none the less they lost 350:0 and their ego did not took that too well. Basically it is tons of little things that can make a man go crazy around me, or it could be just that people are afraid that I constantly have at least two aces in my sleeve.




Well in some cases I brooke up the circus of hooking up process and sometimes girls did it.
I liked all of them but the drama was just too strong and they did not make peace with themselves about what they really want. The trick is that as I am from ex war zone that this effect has effected everbody in my generation. I have built walls and preserved many thing while majority took much more direct hit from this.

Ok, great...onto the FP-TJ conflict, right? The second question from my last post please.

So the point is that I had to be there. Women like to be engaged directly. It reveals a mans intentions toward us. So you're definitely onto something with that train of thought. Especially if you're not actually physically unattractive (wink - I didn't miss that one)

As far as the essay is concerned: there are plenty of movies that originated as screen plays and I doubt anyone is accusing those authors of being psychopaths. It's just an essay.
Hiding in the female locker room sounds more like a dream come true - vision realized. And Cheeeyeck! off the bucket list. I don't think there is a guy in this forum that would pass at that opportunity. Yawn.

I would say this - careful. With regards to the being in your 30's and never have been in love. That could be a red flag for some as it rises a debate for causation. (Not that you would shy from debate) Why haven't you ever been in love?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ok, great...onto the FP-TJ conflict, right? The second question from my last post please.

So the point is that I had to be there. Women like to be engaged directly. It reveals a mans intentions toward us. So you're definitely onto something with that train of thought. Especially if you're not actually physically unattractive (wink - I didn't miss that one)

As far as the essay is concerned: there are plenty of movies that originated as screen plays and I doubt anyone is accusing those authors of being psychopaths. It's just an essay.
Hiding in the female locker room sounds more like a dream come true - vision realized. And Cheeeyeck! off the bucket list. I don't think there is a guy in this forum that would pass at that opportunity. Yawn.

I would say this - careful. With regards to the being in your 30's and never have been in love. That could be a red flag for some as it rises a debate for causation. (Not that you would shy from debate) Why haven't you ever been in love?

I though that FP-TJ conflict is obvious. This basically comes down to the fact that you have to force and control the ENFP so that the targets of the original plan are fulfiled. (what FPs really hate) It can also be that FP person desires attention and the TJ thinks that we have already done this yesterday and that today we should do something more useful. I mean if you have ever had experiences with a TJ you probably know about what I am takling about . However most INTJs are more laid back than me so do not worry about this too much for your case.



I know that this is a red flag for for most women. This can totally destroy trust form their side.
However I am very shortly in 30s so it is not that much dramatic, but if this situation continues for years then I will be in problems.
Why I was never in love ? At first I did not have interest and later I had bad luck on so many ways as well as plenty of work. So I did not have much of free time for years, plus then there is my personality.
Also there is a fact that my interests are mostly technical, what means that I have encountered very little women through out my education. (sometimes there was not a single woman the class)

 

[inspiredpoet]

If I can ask: Do you know anything about the ennegram of your INTJs ? Core, tritype, variant ?

All I know is that one of them is a 5w4-3w4-1w2 female INTJ, and one is a 5w4-1w9-4w5 male INTJ.

I know another INTJ but I never gave him the test. He got so bored when I had him take the Keirsey temperament sorter & the MBTI, so I figured another test wouldn’t be a good idea for now.

 

[Hapyniss]

I though that FP-TJ conflict is obvious. This basically comes down to the fact that you have to force and control the ENFP so that the targets of the original plan are fulfiled. (what FPs really hate) It can also be that FP person desires attention and the TJ thinks that we have already done this yesterday and that today we should do something more useful. I mean if you have ever had experiences with a TJ you probably know about what I am takling about . However most INTJs are more laid back than me so do not worry about this too much for your case.



I know that this is a red flag for for most women. This can totally destroy trust form their side.
However I am very shortly in 30s so it is not that much dramatic, but if this situation continues for years then I will be in problems.
Why I was never in love ? At first I did not have interest and later I had bad luck on so many ways as well as plenty of work. So I did not have much of free time for years, plus then there is my personality.
Also there is a fact that my interests are mostly technical, what means that I have encountered very little women through out my education. (sometimes there was not a single woman the class)

Obvious to you...sure. The way that emoting and social constructs are obvious to me, but not necessarily INTJ's. So perhaps a little explaining is acceptable to find common ground. Not to mention that I was asking your point of view on this specifically, not just any point of view. Thank you for explaining it to me.

What methods of force/control are you referring to? That doesn't sound fun or romantic at all BTW. Are there alternatives to a forced and controlled approach? See - this is why the attention is an important part of this paradigm. For example, if a man shows that attention - even an INTJ - the point here that's relevant is once he's done the work to build the trust, this forced approach won't be necessary. I will trust him. Therefore when he approaches me with a plan for the future, I have more confidence that I can allow him free reign to pursue that with my participation and he doesn't have to over-explain his position. That's why I would think an INTJ would want to consider this aspect of the FP-TJ dichotomy. And a smart man that cared for his woman would want to take a less abrasive approach to ensure that the ENFP doesn't panic. I do crave more space as the relationship duration increases. So it's only in the very beginning stages, during the trust building, that the INTJ would be showering this much attention.



He's done well in keeping in contact with me when he can so I don't foresee that being an issue (not letting more than 2 days go by without giving me an update). I see my INTJ probably once a week, talk on the phone one additional time, email one time, and text a little bit throughout the week. It's only been a month. So I don't really have any expectations of how he "should" be. There were a lot of phone conversations taking place over hours in the beginning, but that's us getting to know one another. I don't want to sit on the phone for hours and hours with someone even if I am interested in them. I have my own interests that I want to continue to pursue despite the newness of the relationship. In addition, he gives me topics that he wants to discuss with me and I spend a good deal of 2-3 days researching enough to carry an intelligible conversation. So that's time consuming in of itself. I am making every effort to show interest in these topics though.

It's not just the trust red flag - it's the relationship skills red flag. Questions that would circle in my mind are: How much does he know? How much would I need to teach him? What ideal has he created in his head about relationships in general? Will I "stack up" to his ideal? Can he view me as an individual and not what he's idealized in his head? What examples of relationships has been exposed to? Etc.

So how often do you get out to meet women?

I guess the only thing that I see right now is that kisses are a bit awkward from his end (unless he's had a drink or two). The one kissing session we did have was amazing!

But that will most likely take time.

 

[Hapyniss]

You know, there was just a bit of this from my INTP as well. They are not the charmers that ENFPs are, but do love a challenge in their own way.

It does seem that NT's really appreciate complexity..in all things. Not complicated per se, where there is tons of drama and what not. A refined, elegant, beautiful, complexity. Perfectionists.

 

[Hapyniss]

From what I have read and understand, much of what we attribute to male/female differences is really due to T/F differences. Since more men are T and more women F, it looks like the same thing but really isn't. For women Ts and men Fs, the type preferences are not reinforced by the social conditioning that tends to put all T in the male camp and all F in the female, but the cognitive processes are still there. I suspect T women are much more resistant to conditioning anyway. I actually think the pressure is greater on F men, though the ones I know (ENFJ, INFP, ISFJ, a couple INFJ) seem fairly resistant to it as well.


I agree with the highlighted, and take objection to generalized descriptions (i.e. not accounts of specific relationships) that assume male INTJ/female ENFP because of the needless convolution of legitimate type differences with almost charicatured gender stereotypes. (Not sure if that is your meaning here.)

The INTJ/ENFP relationship has been discussed to death in various threads here, and if you can strip out the gender stereotypes, does contain elements that I personally would find appealing. These include the stimulation of new and interesting ideas generated by Ne; the inherent personal warmth ENFPs generally have; the ability to be smart, witty, curious, even off-the-wall; the idea of depth of layers to uncover/puzzle out, but never completely; the good-natured spontaneity that can get an INTJ out of a rut and trying new things like little else can. I have experienced some of this with an ENFP female friend. I even get some of it with my INTP - the Ne-driven part.

Just for kicks, to rewrite some of Hapyniss' description with genders reversed:


Makes sense this way, too. I could go for some of this, easily.

It sounds sultry, sexy, and super-fly from the female perspective! I should do one for the ENFP's attraction to INTJ male, etc. and vice versa. Give me a minute!

 

[Virtual ghost]

Obvious to you...sure. The way that emoting and social constructs are obvious to me, but not necessarily INTJ's. So perhaps a little explaining is acceptable to find common ground. Not to mention that I was asking your point of view on this specifically, not just any point of view. Thank you for explaining it to me.

What methods of force/control are you referring to? That doesn't sound fun or romantic at all BTW. Are there alternatives to a forced and controlled approach? See - this is why the attention is an important part of this paradigm. For example, if a man shows that attention - even an INTJ - the point here that's relevant is once he's done the work to build the trust, this forced approach won't be necessary. I will trust him. Therefore when he approaches me with a plan for the future, I have more confidence that I can allow him free reign to pursue that with my participation and he doesn't have to over-explain his position. That's why I would think an INTJ would want to consider this aspect of the FP-TJ dichotomy. And a smart man that cared for his woman would want to take a less abrasive approach to ensure that the ENFP doesn't panic. I do crave more space as the relationship duration increases. So it's only in the very beginning stages, during the trust building, that the INTJ would be showering this much attention.





He's done well in keeping in contact with me when he can so I don't foresee that being an issue (not letting more than 2 days go by without giving me an update). I see my INTJ probably once a week, talk on the phone one additional time, email one time, and text a little bit throughout the week. It's only been a month. So I don't really have any expectations of how he "should" be. There were a lot of phone conversations taking place over hours in the beginning, but that's us getting to know one another. I don't want to sit on the phone for hours and hours with someone even if I am interested in them. I have my own interests that I want to continue to pursue despite the newness of the relationship. In addition, he gives me topics that he wants to discuss with me and I spend a good deal of 2-3 days researching enough to carry an intelligible conversation. So that's time consuming in of itself. I am making every effort to show interest in these topics though.


It's not just the trust red flag - it's the relationship skills red flag. Questions that would circle in my mind are: How much does he know? How much would I need to teach him? What ideal has he created in his head about relationships in general? Will I "stack up" to his ideal? Can he view me as an individual and not what he's idealized in his head? What examples of relationships has been exposed to? Etc.

So how often do you get out to meet women?

I guess the only thing that I see right now is that kisses are a bit awkward from his end (unless he's had a drink or two). The one kissing session we did have was amazing!

But that will most likely take time.

1. If we look at my life philosphy I am interventionalist and I trully do not think that it is bad things to convince people otherwise if it is fairly obvious that they are wrong and it is visible that they may need to be saved from themselves. Obvious example would be my ENFP mother that was/is a free spirit, however due to that she made a number of very bad life choices and she curses about that every day, in the case that there was no my father she would end up as homeless. This is basically the core of FP-TJ conflict since TJ can see control and pressure as a form of love or care ... while with FP that is less likely. I have no intention of going over the purely verbal pressure but I like that if I draw why I am right that the other person thinks about it instead that it they get defensive and emotional.




2. I have though things through so I trully do not think that I would be that awkward in a relationship. However it seems that a woman needs to have a pretty good self confidence in order to date me ... and I am saying this from experience. As soon I as I am starting to show my cards women tend to get anxious how they will cope with me, what ends in drama and in the end is best that we both go separate ways. I really wanted for things to work out but against constant drama and tears I can't go.


It depends, sometimes I meet women more often and sometimes this is a pure 0 for quite some time. However now I got my life trully in order so I plan to seek them up on my own more often. At this point my love life is clearly the biggest hole in my life that I would really like to fill in a little bit. It started to bother me that in my life there is no intimacy of any kind and the decades are passing by.


You would be unconfortable with someone that has no romantic experiences at all ?

 

[Hapyniss]

1. If we look at my life philosphy I am interventionalist and I trully do not think that it is bad things to convince people otherwise if it is fairly obvious that they are wrong and it is visible that they may need to be saved from themselves. Obvious example would be my ENFP mother that was/is a free spirit, however due to that she made a number of very bad life choices and she curses about that every day, in the case that there was no my father she would end up as homeless. This is basically the core of FP-TJ conflict since TJ can see control and pressure as a form of love or care ... while with FP that is less likely. I have no intention of going over the purely verbal pressure but I like that if I draw why I am right that the other person thinks about it instead that it they get defensive and emotional.




2. I have though things through so I trully do not think that I would be that awkward in a relationship. However it seems that a woman needs to have a pretty good self confidence in order to date me ... and I am saying this from experience. As soon I as I am starting to show my cards women tend to get anxious how they will cope with me, what ends in drama and in the end is best that we both go separate ways. I really wanted for things to work out but against constant drama and tears I can't go.


It depends, sometimes I meet women more often and sometimes this is a pure 0 for quite some time. However now I got my life trully in order so I plan to seek them up on my own more often. At this point my love life is clearly the biggest hole in my life that I would really like to fill in a little bit. It started to bother me that in my life there is no intimacy of any kind and the decades are passing by.


You would be unconfortable with someone that has no romantic experiences at all ?

1. If we look at my life philosphy I am interventionalist and I trully do not think that it is bad things to convince people otherwise if it is fairly obvious that they are wrong and it is visible that they may need to be saved from themselves. Obvious example would be my ENFP mother that was/is a free spirit, however due to that she made a number of very bad life choices and she curses about that every day, in the case that there was no my father she would end up as homeless. This is basically the core of FP-TJ conflict since TJ can see control and pressure as a form of love or care ... while with FP that is less likely. I have no intention of going over the purely verbal pressure but I like that if I draw why I am right that the other person thinks about it instead that it they get defensive and emotional.




2. I have though things through so I trully do not think that I would be that awkward in a relationship. However it seems that a woman needs to have a pretty good self confidence in order to date me ... and I am saying this from experience. As soon I as I am starting to show my cards women tend to get anxious how they will cope with me, what ends in drama and in the end is best that we both go separate ways. I really wanted for things to work out but against constant drama and tears I can't go.


It depends, sometimes I meet women more often and sometimes this is a pure 0 for quite some time. However now I got my life trully in order so I plan to seek them up on my own more often. At this point my love life is clearly the biggest hole in my life that I would really like to fill in a little bit. It started to bother me that in my life there is no intimacy of any kind and the decades are passing by.


You would be unconfortable with someone that has no romantic experiences at all ?

Ok. Isn't it fair to asses that you've come to this understanding regarding your philosophy over your lifespan? What experience do you think a woman is having throughout her lifespan that leads her to the philosophy she has developed? Bad life choices has less to do with being and ENFP and more to do with a personal weakness or over use of a strength/immaturity/gross misunderstanding. In your case, that may be waiting until your 30's to focus on finding an intimate partnership. You may find that waiting this long has been your bad life choice that haunts you into your latter life. I don't see that as a FP-TJ divide, but more a human experience.

Virtual Ghost...I have to say. You are an extremely intelligent person, I can tell. However, intelligence isn't always the proper tool for the job. Self confidence may be present in the woman that you're attracted to, but weans as the balance of self shifts to allow another person into ones life. What you're seeing isn't insecurity as much as it is vulnerability. These are NOT the same thing. It would behoove you to take a closer examination of these human interactions so that when a woman is feeling vulnerable you do not misconstrue this as insecurity and drama. Think of the song by Sam Cooke - Try a Little Tenderness. When a woman is feeling insecure - you're more likely to see her behave in a way that is fishing for compliments or assurance. You, of course can decide how to reassure her - by either repeating yourself, or offering a compliment, or applying reason or logic. - However, applying those interventions to a woman that is feeling vulnerable will be ineffective. She doesn't need reassurance, she needs to feel that she can trust you with herself and what she extends as her circle of safety. Speaking to her in logic during this phase will only confuse her. Her emotionalism will intensify and she may start to cry. It's not that she cannot see the philosophy you're relaying, just that she cannot see it right in that moment. First, a man must address her vulnerability by showing her how she can trust him. Then he can share his logical plan with the likelihood she will be more open and accepting.

How can you be sure that you won't be awkward? There isn't a systematic approach that can help you identify what a woman is needing that you can pre-plan for. That's why it's awkward. You can't think through that process. It's like trying to screw in a nail with a drill. That just looks odd. Sure - you might be able to finagle some way to get the screw in but it's must more effective and efficient to just use a hammer. Right? Meanwhile - if the woman is the nail - you're coming at her with a drill in the incorrect manner. Um, can you say scary? (Hey - whatcha gonna do with that?) She just DOESN'T work that way. If you were a nail, and someone were coming to you with a drill, and they were trying to convince you that's what is going to work best, wouldn't you look at them oddly? You would want them to or even try to convince them reciprocally that you are a NAIL! Derp. That's not illogical - it's nature. And just as in nature, things can be explained in logical terms - so can she. You just haven't figured that puzzle out yet. You see Fibonacci sequence, but she's the golden ratio. You just need to go farther and work harder to get to where you want to be with her. Essentially - I'm calling you a quitter. You've given up too easily. That's why you don't have the relationship you truly desire. It's not just her. It's you.

Yes - I absolutely would be uncomfortable trying out a relationship with someone that has no romantic experiences. Read above- that's why. Conversely - that isn't to say that I wouldn't be open to attempting one with a man that shows great quality and potential. I would be willing to try.

 

[Coriolis]

2. I have though things through so I trully do not think that I would be that awkward in a relationship. However it seems that a woman needs to have a pretty good self confidence in order to date me ... and I am saying this from experience. As soon I as I am starting to show my cards women tend to get anxious how they will cope with me, what ends in drama and in the end is best that we both go separate ways. I really wanted for things to work out but against constant drama and tears I can't go.

You would be unconfortable with someone that has no romantic experiences at all ?

I would not have been uncomfortable. In fact, I dated several people who had minimal to no romantic experiences. There's a first time for everyone, after all. As for confidence, everyone should have at least some minimal level of self-confidence. Otherwise they are likely to enter relationships for the wrong reason, expecting their partner to make up for their own deficits in ways that are neither healthy nor realistic.

Self confidence may be present in the woman that you're attracted to, but weans as the balance of self shifts to allow another person into ones life. What you're seeing isn't insecurity as much as it is vulnerability. These are NOT the same thing.

I disagree with this with respect to confidence. A good relationship enhances confidence rather than diminishing it, and confidence makes you more willing to be vulnerable, with those special others you choose to be close with. Relationships are best between two people who want each other, not need each other.

 

[Jade Heart]

As an ISFJ, I'm not intellectually capable enough to grasp this for myself.

but because I'm a sensor, I can't really grasp what it means.

Please. Don't ever say something like that. Everybody has the chance to become intelligent, and using mbti as an excuse won't do anything for you other than make you look like what you say you are- a sensor who is "more stupid" than an intuitive. How can you link the assertion of being an ISFJ to being smart enough to understand something like this?

That being said, I don't mean to insult or hurt your feelings, and I'm sorry for not answering the question in the first paragraph. I think it's only that INTJs are more willing to accept that they are wrong about something than INTPs, and they won't keep picking away at ENFPs with logic like an INTP. Also, INTPs' cold, hard analysis of things is sometimes pretty annoying. ENFPs, being more inclined to deciding things with their emotions, may feel attacked if the INTP in question is disagreeing with them on something, and they keep forcing facts and logic on the ENFP. INTJs will at least listen to people (most of the time) without interrupting with rebuttals, thanks to their listening-to-other-people's-valuable-input Ni in contrast with the INTPs' debate-oriented Ti.

 

[Hapyniss]

I would not have been uncomfortable. In fact, I dated several people who had minimal to no romantic experiences. There's a first time for everyone, after all. As for confidence, everyone should have at least some minimal level of self-confidence. Otherwise they are likely to enter relationships for the wrong reason, expecting their partner to make up for their own deficits in ways that are neither healthy nor realistic.

I agree with this about expecting partners to compensate for their deficits. Also, consider that sometimes this compensation happens naturally and really builds a healthy co-dependence. A.K.A - complimentary compatibility. However, shouldn't be the "expectation". Everyone should be doing their own work in themselves. If you find a partner willing to take their strengths and press the forward momentum, even better!
Conversely - even confident people enter relationships for the wrong reasons.

Curious? What was the experience of dating someone without experience like? Did they make a lot of mistakes? Did you feel like a teacher more than a partner? What benefits vs. obstacles did you encounter?
I disagree with this with respect to confidence. A good relationship enhances confidence rather than diminishing it, and confidence makes you more willing to be vulnerable, with those special others you choose to be close with. Relationships are best between two people who want each other, not need each other.

[/QUOTE]I disagree with this with respect to confidence. A good relationship enhances confidence rather than diminishing it, and confidence makes you more willing to be vulnerable, with those special others you choose to be close with. Relationships are best between two people who want each other, not need each other.[/QUOTE]



Ok. I hear that. If we were talking about any relationship with any person, I may agree. But, he doesn't want a relationship to develop with just any type: he's specifically looking for an ENFP. ENFP and confidence during the beginning of a relationship = uh uh. We second guess everything and lose ourselves for a little bit in the beginning. We get it back though. Just not right away. I have found that I get so confused about what I'm experiencing because I feel before I think. I've had to learn to stop, separate, and think before impulsively acting. It takes me time to process so I retreat to think about what it is I'm feeling. I eventually do come around and am able to express what I want and need clearly and concisely, but not during the flood of intense emotions at the upstart.