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You aren't an INFP.

Yama

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[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] Just got home and listened to the song you shared. I can definitely see the Si Fe :D Ooh where's that one thread where you dedicate songs to the MBTI types?! And lol also thank you for sharing the link to the lyrics because I have such a hard time understanding people when they sing :heart:

I don't know a lot of music, especially popular music, but if I had to try and pick a song to describe how being ISFJ feels to me... hm. That's tough. Ohhh this is tough.

...Well I don't know how ISFJ this is, it's probably more 9 than SFJ, but I think if I had been born a song instead of a human this is the song I would be.

And lyrics (yes, it's in English :wink:)

...The more I think about it, the more this is probably more 9 than SFJ. Well, I tried to contribute :cry:
 

Yama

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I've been thinking about this and don't really have an answer yet...I'm not at all confident about my understanding of the types. I just wanted to say something because I've considered ISTJ, ISFP, and all the INxx types in the past and eventually decided I was overcomplicating things and went back to my original typing.

Me too; I originally tested as ISFJ on some dichotomous test a million years ago but nowadays I mostly test as ISTJ, sometimes ISFP, occasionally INFP. But tests and I will just have to agree to disagree on their interpretations of the functions. :alttongue:

My main reason for questioning INFP was my identification with Pi. And Si being in the "third position" still doesn't sound exactly right to me, because it makes it sound like Si is "accessed" or "present" less often than Fi and Ne, and I don't think that's the case. I feel like I experience Si all the time. It's just...quieter, and less differentiated, maybe? Although sometimes it's very loud. The other day I was reading about how the idea that all parts of society are interrelated and interdependent led early conservative sociologists to fear that tampering with one part could lead to undermining others, and society as a whole. So these sociologists obviously had no interest in revolution; the idea was that the existing social structures were basically fine and only required moderate reform. (I [and the textbook] am probably oversimplifying things.) And I kinda relate to that fear, and associate it with Si. To me this is what the tradition and "conservatism" of Si is basically about. Anticipating the consequences of tampering with what seems to be functioning well enough, and in the case of Si+F, anticipation of the emotional consequences of deviating from tradition/habit --> a tendency towards nostalgia. For example, having a strong emotional response to a book and becoming very attached to it, re-reading and re-reading it in order to replicate the original response. A faith in the value of the objects/experiences that moved you in the past, fear that you will not form as significant attachments to new ones. In this analogy you could replace "society" with "inner world."
.......I dunno. I hope that makes some sense. Sorry for bringing my sociology homework into this. Also, I just want to say that I think Si-doms can be very innovative, forward-thinking and original.

For me, Si is something that's so unconscious that I don't even think about it. It's so natural to me that I sometimes just have the tendency to assume everyone else is the same way, even though that's not true. Everything around me is filtered through Si, all the time; it's just so natural that I hardly notice. It's hard to describe because it's actually rather abstract I think, but not in the same way that Ni is. I think I read somewhere once that our tertiary function is something we think we're better at than we actually are??? But idk how I feel about that, since I'm tert Ti and I know my Ti sucks, so eh.

I think it's no secret that I tend to have a problem with Si being labelled as traditional/conservative. :wink: Not that an Si user can't be, of course, but for reasons I mentioned in my Si thread (#shameless advertising because I love my Si thread). Although the feelings you're describing of fear do rather sound more lower-Ne to me than higher-Ne (or at last that's how Ne manifests in my case; I can't speak for others).

Hah and you don't need to apologize, I'm a sociology major myself so I don't mind you bringing it up at all. :D I must say I am rather partial to conflict theory. :blush:

I believe I'm a Ji type because I know I am always evaluating Si(+Ne) stuff, parsing it for significance according to mostly subjective and constantly-in-flux criteria. (Maybe this criteria is even more subjective and dynamic with ISFPs, given the nature of intuition?)

All of that being said, I pretty much agree with what OrangeAppled said about the functions.

Ji is so foreign to me; perhaps it's because I'm so Pi-heavy that it's hard for me to imagine being any other way. I really do need to try and improve my understanding of it (especially Ti). Although I would say subjectivity is the territory of both Ji and Pi, since they're both, well, internally-focused. :p (and yes, OA is amazing)

[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] This is one of the most interesting MBTI threads I've read on here in a long time. I get that it's all speculation and am definitely not trying to be critical. :)

kohai-chan is a cinnamon roll, I'm also really glad she made this thread! :heart:
 

mintleaf

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Me too; I originally tested as ISFJ on some dichotomous test a million years ago but nowadays I mostly test as ISTJ, sometimes ISFP, occasionally INFP. But tests and I will just have to agree to disagree on their interpretations of the functions. :alttongue:



For me, Si is something that's so unconscious that I don't even think about it. It's so natural to me that I sometimes just have the tendency to assume everyone else is the same way, even though that's not true. Everything around me is filtered through Si, all the time; it's just so natural that I hardly notice. It's hard to describe because it's actually rather abstract I think, but not in the same way that Ni is. I think I read somewhere once that our tertiary function is something we think we're better at than we actually are??? But idk how I feel about that, since I'm tert Ti and I know my Ti sucks, so eh.

I think it's no secret that I tend to have a problem with Si being labelled as traditional/conservative. :wink: Not that an Si user can't be, of course, but for reasons I mentioned in my Si thread (#shameless advertising because I love my Si thread). Although the feelings you're describing of fear do rather sound more lower-Ne to me than higher-Ne (or at last that's how Ne manifests in my case; I can't speak for others).

Hah and you don't need to apologize, I'm a sociology major myself so I don't mind you bringing it up at all. :D I must say I am rather partial to conflict theory. :blush:



Ji is so foreign to me; perhaps it's because I'm so Pi-heavy that it's hard for me to imagine being any other way. I really do need to try and improve my understanding of it (especially Ti). Although I would say subjectivity is the territory of both Ji and Pi, since they're both, well, internally-focused. :p (and yes, OA is amazing)



kohai-chan is a cinnamon roll, I'm also really glad she made this thread! :heart:

I haven't seen your Si thread but will definitely look at it! I glanced at the first post and agree with you on preservation being a better word.

I'm not a soc major, just beginning a sociology minor (kind of). I agree with what I've read about conflict theory so far (not much) and don't see why anyone wouldn't, it seems so obvious.
 

Yama

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I haven't seen your Si thread but will definitely look at it! I glanced at the first post and agree with you on preservation being a better word.

I'm not a soc major, just beginning a sociology minor (kind of). I agree with what I've read about conflict theory so far (not much) and don't see why anyone wouldn't, it seems so obvious.

It's a really interesting subject and I hope you enjoy it! :D There are a lot of theories, like symbolic interactionism, functionalism, modernization, globalization, ecofeminism, etc. etc. etc. but they're all super fascinating. :)

Though I'm probably just derailing the thread now. :laugh: Sorry!
 

fetus

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I'm going to keep writing material for this thread because it's so important. :)
 

thoughtlost

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I think my friend is ISFJ.

It's obvious that she is a feeler. When we met 2 years ago, that was the most obvious thing about her. I think that xxFJs usually appear to be obviously feelery, and we are sure she is a 2w1 (when me and another friend of hers read the description, we laughed so hard). She has a very strong E1 wing in her. I mean, she could be a 9 ..............BUT SHE IS A 2, DAWG.

She cares SO MUCH about the opinions people have about her. Like, it's so cute and sad and dramatic at the same time; she'll come home depressed/in tears when she would come home from work sometimes. Life becomes hard for her if the people around her aren't warm to her the way she'd like. She had issues with being bullied in the past, so she is super sensitive. Rejection is super hard for her. She is definitely a warm person and wants to see the world turn into a warmer, caring place where people are there for each other. She feels really really really really strong feelings for those who are mistreated but she isn't "fiery" about her values like I feel an ExFJ would do so (according to the Myers Briggs book, it's the feeler who is EXTROVERTED that champions their values, not the feeler that is introverted. Again, this is how a mistype happens if you rely on shallow descriptions you get from psychology classes or high school guidance counselor).

...I mean, I guess she is fiery. However, she doesn't champion her values for the sake of it... it's only when it's really really needed. So that is why I think her Fe is second

She used to write poetry and other things. She is an awesome writer. Like, no joke... sometimes I think she was born in the wrong century because you practically never see poetry so well done these days. She actually won lots of awards for her work. It is something that really mattered to her (it probably still does), but she doesn't promote her writing. It's not that kind of writing that you can put in a stereotypical blog these days. She doesn't do it to feel unique or anything, she writes because she simply finds it beautiful. She HARDLY ever shares it with anyone; I think I just got really lucky that day. She really isn't into writing so she can share it and inspire people. It's something that really is PURELY for herself. She really just likes the cool ways you can say things. But she hides it from everyone ever because it's close to her heart and it would be a sensitive thing if she had people looking/judging her work. Instead, she puts A LOT of her focus on volunteer work (like she wouldn't go to a graduate school that wouldn't give her the time to be of service in some way). She volunteered at children's hospitals and organizes fundraisers for children in other countries to go to school. She is a scientist (I think this is due to a strong influence of her mom, who wanted her to be a scientist). And she is good at it. In college, I felt like she over-worked herself. She hates not doing something because she'll feel bad. Of course, she apologizes too much for being a "bad friend". Like, if I call her and she doesn't pick up (because she is sleeping or something) you can sense it in her voice that she feels so horrible. She is always over-exerting herself for her friends (but she doesn't resent it; it's what she feels she has to do ...same thing with being a scientist.... she doesn't resent the pressure... in fact, she does very well conforming to it). On some level, she likes being a scientist. She likes tinkering with things and seeing what works. And she has a really great understanding of the concepts/details to know when something won't work. But at the same time, this is how she gains acceptance from the world.

I want to stress how the poetry aspect about ISFJs have this sensitive poetic side to them, but the popular opinion about ISFJs does not reflect this. This not because MBTI is wrong ...becuase this side of them really IS hidden. This is where Fi and Si can get confused because both functions are pretty secretive like that. Si doms don't parade their feelings for all to see and neither do Fi doms. I think this is the same for INFJs. I am looking through the book and the Ni in INFJs barely gets touched.

When there exists no capacity for artistic expression, all impressions sink into the inner depths, whence they hold consciousness under a spell, removing any possibility it might have had of mastering the fascinating impression by means of conscious expression. Relatively speaking, this type has only archaic possibilities of expression for the disposal of his impressions; thought and feeling are relatively unconscious, and, in so far as they have a certain consciousness, they only serve in the necessary, banal, every-day expressions. Hence as conscious functions, they are wholly unfitted to give any adequate rendering of the subjective perceptions. This type, therefore, is uncommonly inaccessible to an objective understanding and he fares no better in the understanding of himself.

This is a quote taken from Jung. Si is best expressed artistically, but if it cannot do that... then thought/and feeling (which are best understood consciously), take over and that gives the ISFJ the "every day expressions" we normally see in them. Their Si can be largely hidden. So, in my friend, her expressions (Fe/Ti) come out in her volunteer work, being a Christian and stuff like that).

I want to use this last point to also stress that is the ESFJ/ENFJ user who has the desire to impact people/parade their values, according to Myers Briggs. They are usually more expressive/have the desire to express. Their thoughts/feelings take shape when they can express. Both ESFJs and ENFJs) are described as idealistic and seek ways to express their idealism. I think that people confuse even Ne/Fi or Fi/Ne for extroverted feeling often because people rely on tests that have been adapted from Myers Briggs to use in the corporate world... where they don't care for such a distinction. So they get rid of that when they make their tests for high schoolers and stuff. But the actual MBTI makes it clear that it is the Fe user that cares for self-expression more than the INFP or ISFP. IxFPs appear to be "judgy" ...looking for ways that match their internal idealism. IxFP and ExFJ probably have the same level of internal idealism in them... but the Fi user doesn't show their feeling (hence why a lot of them mistype other introverted types, such as INTP, if they rely on high school style personality tests instead of the actual MBTI book). When I was in high school, the psych test my guidance counselor gave me said I was INFP and the description was like "they are the inspirering/champions" or something like that. At that time, my extroverted feeling was really strong, so that is why I got such a result. So I think that those who think they are INFP due to high school style testing are a mixture of any of the xxFJ types, including the extroverts.


She puts A LOT of her focus on volunteer work (like she wouldn't go to a graduate school that wouldn't give her the time to be of service in some way). She volunteered at children's hospitals and organizes fundraisers for children in other countries to go to school. She is a scientist (I think this is due to a strong influence of her mom, who wanted her to be a scientist). And she is good at it. In college, I felt like she over-worked herself. She hates not doing something because she'll feel bad. Of course, she apologizes too much for being a "bad friend". Like, if I call her and she doesn't pick up (because she is sleeping or something) you can sense it in her voice that she feels so horrible. She is always over-exerting herself for her friends (but she doesn't resent it; it's what she feels she has to do ...same thing with being a scientist.... she doesn't resent the pressure... in fact, she does very well conforming to it). On some level, she likes being a scientist. She likes tinkering with things and seeing what works. And she has a really great understanding of the concepts/details to know when something won't work. This is how her Fe/Ti come out (in the banal, everyday expression).
 

entropie

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the isfj is the socially accepted artist. infps do kinky shit. I never had a sexual relationship with that woman !
 

strychnine

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I believe I'm a Ji type because I know I am always evaluating Si(+Ne) stuff, parsing it for significance according to mostly subjective and constantly-in-flux criteria. (Maybe this criteria is even more subjective and dynamic with ISFPs, given the nature of intuition?)

Yeah, I do the same as an ESFP - evaluating new information against my internal framework. My criteria is constantly being perfected and is in that sense always in flux; to hold the criteria fixed instead would stunt growth and progress of the framework. However, sometimes I can be very rigid with my judgments and principles and that is one of the reason I mistyped as ISFP originally. Dominant Ji is more rigid generally while auxiliary Ji is more flexible.

BTW, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] , thanks for the clarification. I totally get what you mean by Jung saying Ji has a chip on its shoulder, haha. It can stridently/rigidly reject violations of its concepts. I misunderstood what you meant before but now it looks like we're on the same page :)
 

fetus

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Yeah I don't do the internal framework thing as much. I just process new information as "how will this make me feel right now" and "is this something I've always known to be true." Good distinctions.
 

mintleaf

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Yeah, I do the same as an ESFP - evaluating new information against my internal framework. My criteria is constantly being perfected and is in that sense always in flux; to hold the criteria fixed instead would stunt growth and progress of the framework. However, sometimes I can be very rigid with my judgments and principles and that is one of the reason I mistyped as ISFP originally. Dominant Ji is more rigid generally while auxiliary Ji is more flexible. BTW, OrangeAppled , thanks for the clarification. I totally get what you mean by Jung saying Ji has a chip on its shoulder, haha. It can stridently/rigidly reject violations of its concepts. I misunderstood what you meant before but now it looks like we're on the same page :)

I immediately knew I must have gotten something wrong when I read "internal framework." I don't relate to the part about rigidity either. So I refreshed my memory on the functions, which led me to reading about INFJs, and now I'm almost positive that that's what I am. Explains why I related to the Fe part of themightyfetus's post.
 

fetus

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I immediately knew I must have gotten something wrong when I read "internal framework." I don't relate to the part about rigidity either. So I refreshed my memory on the functions, which led me to reading about INFJs, and now I'm almost positive that that's what I am. Explains why I related to the Fe part of themightyfetus's post.

I really influenced someone. :blush: Glad you've found your type, friend.
 

strychnine

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I immediately knew I must have gotten something wrong when I read "internal framework." I don't relate to the part about rigidity either. So I refreshed my memory on the functions, which led me to reading about INFJs, and now I'm almost positive that that's what I am. Explains why I related to the Fe part of themightyfetus's post.

Well, as a disclaimer, if it helps, I'm not totally sure of my type. So, that internal framework could be some other function and not Fi. However, I'm quite sure I'm a Ji dom/aux so if you don't relate to what I wrote about the framework and its rigidity in general, then yeah, you're probably not a Ji dom/aux. :)
 

prplchknz

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I actually feel more at home as an ISFP than i ever did as an INFP i never related to INFP like i did ISFP but what got me from deciding on ISFP was the stereotype that we notice everything and Ne is related to being random (it's not actually random) and I get called random. But yeah I do notice more details than me N counter parts, I'm often how did you not see that? it's so obvious. Also the idea that ISFPs are suppose to be good at art, I'm not but I do have a good eye for color.
 

fetus

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I actually feel more at home as an ISFP than i ever did as an INFP i never related to INFP like i did ISFP but what got me from deciding on ISFP was the stereotype that we notice everything and Ne is related to being random (it's not actually random) and I get called random. But yeah I do notice more details than me N counter parts, I'm often how did you not see that? it's so obvious. Also the idea that ISFPs are suppose to be good at art, I'm not but I do have a good eye for color.

How do you experience Se?
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah, I do the same as an ESFP - evaluating new information against my internal framework. My criteria is constantly being perfected and is in that sense always in flux; to hold the criteria fixed instead would stunt growth and progress of the framework. However, sometimes I can be very rigid with my judgments and principles and that is one of the reason I mistyped as ISFP originally. Dominant Ji is more rigid generally while auxiliary Ji is more flexible.

BTW, [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] , thanks for the clarification. I totally get what you mean by Jung saying Ji has a chip on its shoulder, haha. It can stridently/rigidly reject violations of its concepts. I misunderstood what you meant before but now it looks like we're on the same page :)

I think Ji is about creating/refining frameworks or models, and just as you say, it means a constant state of flux. However, I don't think this is unique to Ji nor is it even about rational types so much as introverts. Lenore Thompson notes that the most adaptable types, as far as changing themselves to fit with reality, are Extroverts, not P-dominants.

Pi is about frameworks or models also....but instead of frameworks of logical/value categories, it is a framework for "what is" or "what could be". Si is a subjective or internal framework/model for what reality is - what is confirmed through experience and facts as truly REAL. The association with the function and reviewing the past is indicating a mentality concerned with developing a sense of reality that is thorough and consistent, which the person does to subvert the external world to their inner reality (something all introverts do). Their sense of what is reality (a framework or model to reference) suddenly is more real than the external reality, which can seem comparatively absurd. Of course, few people experience it mentally as a "framework", which is Thinking language and can seem foreign to anyone who is not T-dom. Instead, it is just how we experience consciousness. Introverts basically create some world in their head and then strive to make the external reality match it, but this is less evident in Ji types, as their concern tends to be exploring the various ways reality can match it over implementing a specific vision (more Pi).

Anyhow, I think most people have the capacity to get really stubborn about certain things, but that doesn't characterize me in the everyday. Just the other day my friend was telling me how she liked me because I'm pretty much down for anything. I think in a previous post, I noted that the impression I may be inflexible is an initial one born from my aloof demeanor. Like most IxxPs, a lot of times I explore ideas outloud and am way less attached to most of it than I may appear. I may ardently argue a perspective because it feels necessary to do so in order to explore it fully. Like most IxxPs, how I live my life is way more evident of what is guiding me internally or decisions I make for myself.

I don't really agree with the general idea that flexibility is related to a perceiving preference....I think it is a whole mentality born of Pe + Ji. This is why IxxPs in MBTI are correctly called "P types" if we are using that to mean a particular set of behaviors/mentalities associated with "P", which is what MBTI tests for. That kind of flexibility is different from the adaptability of the extrovert. I think IxxPs and IxxJs exhibit different ways of being rigid then, but with both of their rigidity tied to their introverted preference, not the J preference. Je actually makes IxxJs more adaptable to reality, although it can appear they want others to adapt to that external framework they have adapted to also. Because IxxPs are far less concerned with getting people to adapt to frameworks, they have a greater outer appearance of being flexible, as do ExxPs when compared to ExxJs.

While I think IxxPs may reject violations of their concepts, it doesn't usually manifest as trying to change others so much as irritation at having to adjust themselves or frustration at being misunderstood (which IMO, Ti types usually see as a defect in the other person, whereas Fi types tend to see it as a defect in themselves). I think we are less concerned with convincing others than protecting our own autonomy. It is not that our framework is so rigid, because as you correctly noted is in a constant flux, but that we may stubbornly resist influence. This can seem uncharacteristic of us as we often will be exploring and even validating many perspectives and experiences due to Pe. And yes, you will see more resistance from an IxxP than an ExxP.

So I agree with you, but I think the difference is E vs I preference.
 

strychnine

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] When I said "Dominant Ji is more rigid generally while auxiliary Ji is more flexible." I was thinking of Socionics, not MBTI J/P. In Socionics, the auxiliary (creative) function in general, across all types and not just Ji dom/aux, is considered to be more flexible - hence suited for creatively producing things as opposed to forming the worldview as the dominant does.

Other than that, yeah, I agree with what you've said. I certainly don't put much stock in the MBTI J/P preference, as IxxJ are dominant perceivers and IxxP are dominant judgers.
 

fetus

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] This hits the nail on the head for me. Thanks!
 

OrangeAppled

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[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] When I said "Dominant Ji is more rigid generally while auxiliary Ji is more flexible." I was thinking of Socionics, not MBTI J/P. In Socionics, the auxiliary (creative) function in general, across all types and not just Ji dom/aux, is considered to be more flexible - hence suited for creatively producing things as opposed to forming the worldview as the dominant does.

Other than that, yeah, I agree with what you've said. I certainly don't put much stock in the MBTI J/P preference, as IxxJ are dominant perceivers and IxxP are dominant judgers.

Ah, I am not a big fan of socionics...but the idea of the dom being less "flexible" because it is experienced most as the "self" or ego and is more easily threatened is something I see. In MBTI systems, the aux is often viewed as having a parenting or creative "role" in the psychology also. It is experienced less as the self and is more about how one, er, experiences/interacts in the area that is not their preferred focus (I vs E again).

Anyway, I DO put stock in MBTI J/P preferences because I see them as whole mentalities, not just indicating the extroverted function that is preferred. I suppose that is why I can't get on board with Socionics, where I also find nothing reflecting Fi as I understand or see it, leaving me identifying most with the INFp (NiFe).
 

strychnine

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Ah, I am not a big fan of socionics...but the idea of the dom being less "flexible" because it is experienced most as the "self" or ego and is more easily threatened is something I see. In MBTI systems, the aux is often viewed as having a parenting or creative "role" in the psychology also. It is experienced less as the self and is more about how one, er, experiences/interacts in the area that is not their preferred focus (I vs E again).

Anyway, I DO put stock in MBTI J/P preferences because I see them as whole mentalities, not just indicating the extroverted function that is preferred. I suppose that is why I can't get on board with Socionics, where I also find nothing reflecting Fi as I understand or see it, leaving me identifying most with the INFp (NiFe).

Right, yeah, the creative function correlates very well to Beebe's parent... it's basically the same idea that the dominant/hero/leading function is for oneself as the "self" while the auxiliary/parent/creative is for other people and the world at large. :D

Hm, alright, I can understand that. It's easier for me as I actually identified better with the Socionics descriptions of the functions, and strong Fi subtype finally led me to see that I wasn't MBTI ISFP but a rather asocial, quiet ESFP with emphasis on Fi. :) But, to each their own. If you can't find something that fits Fi accurately enough for you, then I completely understand why you're not a big fan of it. :)
 

OrangeAppled

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Right, yeah, the creative function correlates very well to Beebe's parent... it's basically the same idea that the dominant/hero/leading function is for oneself as the "self" while the auxiliary/parent/creative is for other people and the world at large. :D

Hm, alright, I can understand that. It's easier for me as I actually identified better with the Socionics descriptions of the functions, and strong Fi subtype finally led me to see that I wasn't MBTI ISFP but a rather asocial, quiet ESFP with emphasis on Fi. :) But, to each their own. If you can't find something that fits Fi accurately enough for you, then I completely understand why you're not a big fan of it. :)

I notice it appeals to many who identify as sensing types, and I suspect it is because it seems to have less "N bias". The sensing functions are presented less narrowly or perhaps in more relatable ways to actual sensing types.
 
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