[MBTI General] Why Do Thinkers See Emoting and Thinking as Dichotomous Processes?

[SquirrelTao]

To be honest, these threads are making me nervous.

me too

Once I latch onto something, I plumb its depths. Got to. It's my job as an INFP/INXP. It's sincerely not my intention to antagonize you guys.

 

[entropie]

Arrogance never antagonizes us

 

[Haphazard]

I think it's possible for people just to have a belief because of the lack of widespread popularity of the philosophical and psychological advances in understanding how thinking and emotions relate.

Understanding is an entirely human construct, so I suppose it'd be natural that emotions would end up in the mix, too. I mean, rock formations don't 'understand.' They don't have emotions, either. Only things that have both can have understanding, so they end up intertwined...

Or... something...

 

[nolla]

It will get interesting when they build the first "understanding" machine. Then we will see what pure thinking is.

 

[animenagai]

i think the feeling function often gets mixed with being emotional. that's not right. being emotional and being an F are two distinct things. i know many people who have a T function who get angry really easily. it could be because they earn for truth and absolute knowledge when most F's are more or less happy with subjectivity. therefore when a T misunderstands an F and says that they are making choices irrationally, that is also false. MBTI has chosen a non-ideal word to categorize the function. F does not just mean "I feel like peanuts therefore i demand peanuts". it's more 'who would i hurt in making this decision?' and 'is it morally right to do something like this?'.

 

[SquirrelTao]

i think the feeling function often gets mixed with being emotional. that's not right. being emotional and being an F are two distinct things.

I completely agree. But emotions always come up, so I made this thread more about emotions than about the Feeling function. I purposely used "emoting" in the title rather than "Feeling". I thought it might be interesting to take a closer look at how emotion and thought relate to each other in the human psyche.

 

[redacted]

I think it's possible for people just to have a belief because of the lack of widespread popularity of the philosophical and psychological advances in understanding how thinking and emotions relate.

true.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Just wondering....

People here are trying to put a duality between Feeling and feeling.

Isn't the Fi/Fe duality enough to cover this?

 

[SquirrelTao]

Understanding is an entirely human construct, so I suppose it'd be natural that emotions would end up in the mix, too. I mean, rock formations don't 'understand.' They don't have emotions, either. Only things that have both can have understanding, so they end up intertwined...

Or... something...

I think you're onto something. We wouldn't have evolved emotions if they were not adaptive for us as humans. Of course, they can become maladaptive at times, too.

I once read a book about evolution that briefly covered the evolution of emotions. Emotions in mammals evolved, according to the author, to get past the problem of the selfish gene. Emotions can make a creature have an internal reward for doing something unselfish or for delaying gratification. Emotions helped creatures develop behaviors like caring for their young and cooperating together in social groupings. Emotions allowed mammals to go to a higher level of complexity and flexibility than just responding to pleasure and pain and just seeing to their own individual survival.

Of course, it could be that some day humans will evolve to be more free of emotion, somehow retaining the benefits of emotion without being so prone into the traps of emotion - if that's even possible. But then would we still reproduce sexually, would we still have fun, would we still have compassion, or would we resemble the gray insect like aliens a la Communion and other alien stories? Highly speculative. Anyway...

 

[SquirrelTao]

Just wondering....

People here are trying to put a duality between Feeling and feeling.

Isn't the Fi/Fe duality enough to cover this?

I confess I have retained in my memory the descriptions of the types of the people I know in my own circle and how they relate to my type and vice versa - but I have not committed to memory exactly what Fi and Fe are.

 

[animenagai]

Just wondering....

People here are trying to put a duality between Feeling and feeling.

Isn't the Fi/Fe duality enough to cover this?

hmmm... good thought. mind you, as i understand it, Fi refers to values when Fe refers to getting along with people. either way, stuff like anger are not involved directly.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Hmmmm....

Just a hunch:

Values formation:
Ne/Fi axis

Spontaneous, spur of the moment feeling:
Se/Fi axis

 

[Dwigie]

Yeah, I haven't even been here for more than a day and after reading a few threads it feels like F's and T's are throwing rocks to each other in here. I know for a fact I can't relate to someone with too strong a T. Sometimes it is as if they were looking down on me, I've had a couple of T's look at me as "stupid" because I don't make decisions like they do, rationally. I'd rather think about how it will impact people, how they will feel. Funny thing is the nt who does this to me, going around proving he is smart(why does he have to prove it?) was actually laughed at for having an accent and saying stupid things, people rejected and laughed at him as a child. Now he's scarred and takes it out on anyone who resembles his "old ugly duckling", I don't let him play with my feelings anymore I bluntly cut him tell him I won't take his crap and leave, then he runs back to me.(I don't want him, why's he following me? Any advice on how to make nts run away by the way?)Also he has a strange obsession with always wanting my stuff in priority if possible in school.Kind of creepy...

 

[Maabus1999]

Yeah, I haven't even been here for more than a day and after reading a few threads it feels like F's and T's are throwing rocks to each other in here. I know for a fact I can't relate to someone with too strong a T. Sometimes it is as if they were looking down on me, I've had a couple of T's look at me as "stupid" because I don't make decisions like they do, rationally. I'd rather think about how it will impact people, how they will feel. Funny thing is the nt who does this to me, going around proving he is smart(why does he have to prove it?) was actually laughed at for having an accent and saying stupid things, people rejected and laughed at him as a child. Now he's scarred and takes it out on anyone who resembles his "old ugly duckling", I don't let him play with my feelings anymore I bluntly cut him tell him I won't take his crap and leave, then he runs back to me.(I don't want him, why's he following me? Any advice on how to make nts run away by the way?)Also he has a strange obsession with always wanting my stuff in priority if possible in school.Kind of creepy...

Screw the rocks. Bring out the catapult! The only ones left standing will be the T/F "crossover" hybrids who can run to the winning side...then take over.

For your NT. I see school, I think age (assumption), and I think development is an issue. The rest is somewhat vague so I can't comment. Are you trying to make the NT just back off or completely, never talk to you again? If he is a heavy T, you are going to have to use logical thought on why you two should never want to talk again. Hehe, good luck with that one.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

For the record, I am not one of those Thinkers. I have repeatedly argued on this forum that many Thinkers are emotive, and many Feelers are quite dead-pan.

 

[Dwigie]

Screw the rocks. Bring out the catapult! The only ones left standing will be the T/F "crossover" hybrids who can run to the winning side...then take over.

For your NT. I see school, I think age (assumption), and I think development is an issue. The rest is somewhat vague so I can't comment. Are you trying to make the NT just back off or completely, never talk to you again? If he is a heavy T, you are going to have to use logical thought on why you two should never want to talk again. Hehe, good luck with that one.

Well, he has this tendency to just eavesdrop and start arguments out of the blue, I have to tell him very bluntly, borderline "bitchy" until he calms down and talks normally".Backing off is fine, he's not a monster just pretty pompous with his intelligence, I know plenty of smart/geniuses people nobody acts like that. What's the biggest turn off for T's basically, especially NTs? He'll ask me why I use a computer instead of hand writting a report and then I'd tell him: corrects my mistake so my paper doesn't look messy(I'm a pig..)
He interprets it as "mental laziness" and will start debating about the use of computer in schools for 30 minutes trying to make me sound like an illiterate person. Is that typical nt behavior? I swear I don't know anyone else like that.

 

[Little Linguist]

a lot of heavy T users aren't accepted as normal in their childhood. so they look for internal validation, coming to the conclusion that "feeling people" are irrational. when they learn MBTI, they see the word "feeling" used to describe value judgments and subconsciously make the connection to their childhood annoyances/tormentors.

then they learn MBTI more and realize that feeling is necessary for thinking to even take place. they see the utility of value judgments and figure out that a balance between T and F is the goal.

i guess the correlation is probably there -- Fs (on average) immaturely express their value judgments more than Ts. but not by much. the conclusion certainly is not applicable to individuals anyway.

Agreed. I have a problem with immaturity played off as intellectualism regardless of the source being T or F. If you are making a joke or satirical comment, fine; but if you are trying to be serious and coming off as an immature fart - there's the door. (General you, not you you).

Ay, those prejudices are what makes a Thinker's life hard. Or do you have proof to underline it, then I said nothing

:-/ Some things are real and have no proof. Like love.

i think for the most part everyone's just playing a game of which is better...

doesn't matter. if you lean strong to one end, that just means you have to work on the other even more.

Agreed. 100%. I think I'm blessed to have a relatively balanced T/F axis, which means I can essentially 'do both' for lack of a better expression.

I don't think F types should be allowed to vote or make big decisions, but other than that they're pretty awesome.

Oh hush - you emotive thinker, you.

I guess, when you tell a thinker that his emotions are scrumbled due to his youth and due to him being an idiot.

You are no feeler, because feeling I always connect with wisdom

Those people were idiots - not you. Feeling and thinking both have value - essential value, which is why the question of feeling v. thinking is rather pointless. As I have said multiple times, both sides are necessary - even if it is just to have a point of reference. Both are necessary in real life.

Arrogance never antagonizes us

I'll keep that in mind.

i think the feeling function often gets mixed with being emotional. that's not right. being emotional and being an F are two distinct things. i know many people who have a T function who get angry really easily. it could be because they earn for truth and absolute knowledge when most F's are more or less happy with subjectivity. therefore when a T misunderstands an F and says that they are making choices irrationally, that is also false. MBTI has chosen a non-ideal word to categorize the function. F does not just mean "I feel like peanuts therefore i demand peanuts". it's more 'who would i hurt in making this decision?' and 'is it morally right to do something like this?'.

Agreed. I've seen quite a lot of emotional Ts. And so what? Ts are human, too.

Honestly, though, I do not understand this love affair with dead-panism. Woo hoo, I have no feelings so I must be an enlightened individual who has evolved beyond all that mish mosh. Pfft....It's all a psychological game that your psyche is playing folks. To be really developed, you do not have 100% I or E, N or S, T or F, J or P. You have 50% of both. Then you are a truly balanced, enlightened indivudal who can see the value of every point on each axis. *sigh* Since hardly any of us can reach that goal, we go through trials and relationships to help achieve that balance in life. Once we reach it, we die because we have achieved our purpose....

I completely agree. But emotions always come up, so I made this thread more about emotions than about the Feeling function. I purposely used "emoting" in the title rather than "Feeling". I thought it might be interesting to take a closer look at how emotion and thought relate to each other in the human psyche.

I think it's a great idea, and I am looking forward to reading other perspectives.

Hmmmm....

Just a hunch:

Values formation:
Ne/Fi axis

Spontaneous, spur of the moment feeling:
Se/Fi axis

Yup.

Yeah, I haven't even been here for more than a day and after reading a few threads it feels like F's and T's are throwing rocks to each other in here. I know for a fact I can't relate to someone with too strong a T. Sometimes it is as if they were looking down on me, I've had a couple of T's look at me as "stupid" because I don't make decisions like they do, rationally. I'd rather think about how it will impact people, how they will feel. Funny thing is the nt who does this to me, going around proving he is smart(why does he have to prove it?) was actually laughed at for having an accent and saying stupid things, people rejected and laughed at him as a child. Now he's scarred and takes it out on anyone who resembles his "old ugly duckling", I don't let him play with my feelings anymore I bluntly cut him tell him I won't take his crap and leave, then he runs back to me.(I don't want him, why's he following me? Any advice on how to make nts run away by the way?)Also he has a strange obsession with always wanting my stuff in priority if possible in school.Kind of creepy...

I think the really interesting thing is to define 'rational'. What is rational? Who decides what is rational? Who decides which decisions 'should' be made 'rationally' and isn't that a 'value' statement to say what 'should' be done rationally, which in and of itself is not 'rational'???? Bah!

Should I make a cost-benefit analysis or a psychological or sociological or scientific experiment to decide who to love???? Gimme a break!!!! On the other hand, should I decide complex, important matters based on a hunch without any kind of C/B - SWOT analysis...hmmm, maybe not. I'm very rational when it comes to certain things - in the conventional meaning of the word - very irrational when it comes to other things. And my decisions about what should be decided rationally and irrationally are not always rational. So, does that make me a 'bad' or an 'unintelligent' person who is not to be 'trusted'? Pfffft....

These 'thinkers' and 'feelers' put too much stock in their preferred modes of decision making. As if feelers never think and thinkers never feel??? What about those of us like me who are almost 50/50???? Are we total dumbasses just because the scales tipped slightly in favor of feeling? Pfft, I should hope not.

Screw the rocks. Bring out the catapult! The only ones left standing will be the T/F "crossover" hybrids who can run to the winning side...then take over.

For your NT. I see school, I think age (assumption), and I think development is an issue. The rest is somewhat vague so I can't comment. Are you trying to make the NT just back off or completely, never talk to you again? If he is a heavy T, you are going to have to use logical thought on why you two should never want to talk again. Hehe, good luck with that one.

*sigh* Guess that means there is some hope for me, eh?

For the record, I am not one of those Thinkers. I have repeatedly argued on this forum that many Thinkers are emotive, and many Feelers are quite dead-pan.

True.

Well, he has this tendency to just eavesdrop and start arguments out of the blue, I have to tell him very bluntly, borderline "bitchy" until he calms down and talks normally".Backing off is fine, he's not a monster just pretty pompous with his intelligence, I know plenty of smart/geniuses people nobody acts like that. What's the biggest turn off for T's basically, especially NTs? He'll ask me why I use a computer instead of hand writting a report and then I'd tell him: corrects my mistake so my paper doesn't look messy(I'm a pig..)
He interprets it as "mental laziness" and will start debating about the use of computer in schools for 30 minutes trying to make me sound like an illiterate person. Is that typical nt behavior? I swear I don't know anyone else like that.

When people start bitching irrationally like that while claiming to be rational, I usually just let a big fart go. That solves the issue, and I have my peace.

In my opinion, it's a rational solution: Gives both parties a chance to really think rationally - i.e. this is NOT A BIG DEAL.

 

[Dwigie]

Agreed. I have a problem with immaturity played off as intellectualism regardless of the source being T or F. If you are making a joke or satirical comment, fine; but if you are trying to be serious and coming off as an immature fart - there's the door. (General you, not you you).



:-/ Some things are real and have no proof. Like love.



Agreed. 100%. I think I'm blessed to have a relatively balanced T/F axis, which means I can essentially 'do both' for lack of a better expression.



Oh hush - you emotive thinker, you.



Those people were idiots - not you. Feeling and thinking both have value - essential value, which is why the question of feeling v. thinking is rather pointless. As I have said multiple times, both sides are necessary - even if it is just to have a point of reference. Both are necessary in real life.



I'll keep that in mind.



Agreed. I've seen quite a lot of emotional Ts. And so what? Ts are human, too.

Honestly, though, I do not understand this love affair with dead-panism. Woo hoo, I have no feelings so I must be an enlightened individual who has evolved beyond all that mish mosh. Pfft....It's all a psychological game that your psyche is playing folks. To be really developed, you do not have 100% I or E, N or S, T or F, J or P. You have 50% of both. Then you are a truly balanced, enlightened indivudal who can see the value of every point on each axis. *sigh* Since hardly any of us can reach that goal, we go through trials and relationships to help achieve that balance in life. Once we reach it, we die because we have achieved our purpose....



I think it's a great idea, and I am looking forward to reading other perspectives.



Yup.



I think the really interesting thing is to define 'rational'. What is rational? Who decides what is rational? Who decides which decisions 'should' be made 'rationally' and isn't that a 'value' statement to say what 'should' be done rationally, which in and of itself is not 'rational'???? Bah!

Should I make a cost-benefit analysis or a psychological or sociological or scientific experiment to decide who to love???? Gimme a break!!!! On the other hand, should I decide complex, important matters based on a hunch without any kind of C/B - SWOT analysis...hmmm, maybe not. I'm very rational when it comes to certain things - in the conventional meaning of the word - very irrational when it comes to other things. And my decisions about what should be decided rationally and irrationally are not always rational. So, does that make me a 'bad' or an 'unintelligent' person who is not to be 'trusted'? Pfffft....

These 'thinkers' and 'feelers' put too much stock in their preferred modes of decision making. As if feelers never think and thinkers never feel??? What about those of us like me who are almost 50/50???? Are we total dumbasses just because the scales tipped slightly in favor of feeling? Pfft, I should hope not.



*sigh* Guess that means there is some hope for me, eh?



True.



When people start bitching irrationally like that while claiming to be rational, I usually just let a big fart go. That solves the issue, and I have my peace.

In my opinion, it's a rational solution: Gives both parties a chance to really think rationally - i.e. this is NOT A BIG DEAL.

LOL! I'll fart in his face and see what happens, thank you for your words of wisdom.

 

[Haphazard]

Yeah, I haven't even been here for more than a day and after reading a few threads it feels like F's and T's are throwing rocks to each other in here.

See, I would try to reassure you that it's not usually like that here, but... it's usually like that here. *sigh*

Umm. Welcome to the boards, though.

 

[Little Linguist]

LOL! I'll fart in his face and see what happens, thank you for your words of wisdom.

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!! That's the spirit!!!!!


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